Eclipse?!

G

gwoodhouse

Hello all,

Hope you can help. I started work in a new company yesterday (hurray)
and the office uses Eclipse. I miss netbeans!!

Problem is, ive been wrestling all day with the thing trying to find a
plugin so it will give me a JSP editor (with predictive text would be
nice) but i can't find one on the eclipse plugin site and the ones
from google seem to want me to pay.

Hopefully someone will know of one and i wont be forced to used
UltraEdit32 :p

Graeme Woodhouse
 
L

Lew

Hello all,

Hope you can help. I started work in a new company yesterday (hurray)
and the office uses Eclipse. I miss netbeans!!

Problem is, ive been wrestling all day with the thing trying to find a
plugin so it will give me a JSP editor (with predictive text would be
nice) but i can't find one on the eclipse plugin site and the ones
from google seem to want me to pay.

Hopefully someone will know of one and i wont be forced to used
UltraEdit32 :p

Use NB anyway. Java is Java, and source is just a text file. Class files are
standard, JARs are the same from anywhere. Once you've produced your
artifacts, no one can tell if they were made with Eclipse, NetBeans or vi + Ant.

All test and production builds should be done from the command line with Ant.
All, always.

They hired you to write software, yes? They didn't hire you to be an IDE
expert, right? So you should use the tool that lets you do the job for which
they pay you.

Incidentally, the English word "I" should always be capitalized.
 
M

mich

Lew said:
Use NB anyway.

Might not be a good idea when you start a new job. Why not explain that you
are not familiar with Eclispe and ask for a bit of help?
 
R

Roedy Green

Once you've produced your
artifacts, no one can tell if they were made with Eclipse, NetBeans or vi + Ant.

The problem is they don't have compatible beautifiers. Every time you
check out module and beautify it and check it back in, you will
introduce false deltas if you use a different IDE from the team.
People have been killed for less.

One possibility is to always beautify with Eclipse before checkin.
 
L

Lew

Roedy said:
The problem is they don't have compatible beautifiers. Every time you
check out module and beautify it and check it back in, you will
introduce false deltas if you use a different IDE from the team.
People have been killed for less.

Given that both Eclipse and NetBeans have individually configurable
beautifiers, as does every other important programmers' editor, the fault,
dear Reader, lies not in our IDEs, but in ourselves, that we are possessed of
individuality and free will. [1]

Two points about version control and false deltas.

Point one, Roedy is right, only the problem is more general than just in
Editor Wars. [2] Ergo the version control systems should handle it. In this
sense, the fault lies not in ourselves but in CVS and Subversion.

Actually, version control systems come with the tools to handle the job. 'cvs
diff', for example, leverages diff's '-B','-b' and '-w' options. They don't
have to report the changes in just whitespace.

Point two, it's no big deal to store whitespace-only deltas, from a storage
standpoint. Deltas are called that because they store differential
information, so a whitespace-only delta isn't so horrid.

This begs the question of whether changes in whitespace are "false". They may
not be of interest in a certain context, but they are changes. Hence the diff
whitespace-ignoring options, which give the practitioner freedom to decide.
Bear in mind that no sane or responsible developer should ever check in a
whitespace-only delta - any whitespace changes will be concomitant to
substantive ones.

Nevertheless, there will be changes in whitespace if developers are given the
license to run rampant with their blanks and newlines.

The whitespace-delta issue is not one of IDE configuration but of individual
programmer style. Even within a single IDE programmers can have different
settings. That makes whitespace management a management issue, i.e., a
process question.

To address the question, a team must choose:

- the importance of a whitespace standard. With daily builds and automated
testing, the significance of whitespace changes may be negligible and no
further concern justified. Maybe we should just all get along with any
reasonable layout, and just tell every developer to reformat as they see fit
whenever it's their turn to work on a source artifact. Make a molehill out of
the mountain.

- whether to mandate or automate source layout. Whitespace layout is a matter
of programmer productivity - there is a kind of "impedance match" between a
layout and a programmer's mental efficiency. Forcing developers to conform to
a single standard may reduce productivity, and may not be necessary. Simply
run all source through a standard prettifier on the 'cvs export' to a
documentation tree (or Subversion equivalent, natch). You even configure an
"on commit" action, as CVS does via the commitinfo commands. [3]

- how all this fits into the larger deploy-and-test strategy.

with perhaps special consideration to comment layout.

Conclusion:

I conclude that programmers should use the editor(s) or IDE(s) of their own
choice, with the whitespace of their choice, with the version control system
of the team's choice, via scripts or other automata that format the whitespace
to the team standard on the way in to the repository, in a context of
quotidian build-and-test cycles that use Ant and similar command-line tools
and pretty-formatting on the export (yes, redundantly). I'd much rather see
clear and thorough Javadoc comments now the programmer need not take the time
to worry whether a brace belongs on its own line.

Footnotes:

[1] misquote from Shakespeare, /Julius Caesar/, Act I, Scene II.
[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editor_wars>
[3] <http://ximbiot.com/cvs/manual/cvs-1.11.22/cvs_18.html#SEC171>
 
W

Wojtek

Lew wrote :
Actually, version control systems come with the tools to handle the job.
'cvs diff', for example, leverages diff's '-B','-b' and '-w' options. They
don't have to report the changes in just whitespace.

Except where the whitespace is significant.

String a = "Hello";
a += " there";

vs

String a = "Hello ";
a += "there";
 
L

Lew

Lew wrote :

Except where the whitespace is significant.

String a = "Hello";
a += " there";

vs

String a = "Hello ";
a += "there";

AFAIK the prettifiers will not mess with that part of the whitespace, so
neither the process issue nor its solution is altered. It is an issue with
'diff', thus 'cvs diff', yes, you got that right. Most of the time I don't
use '-b' or '-W' anyway. Maybe '-B' and '-E' are enough.

In practice there usually isn't a whole lot of variation in only
(non-significant) whitespace between checkins. Most shops are (alas) not in
the habit of rotating the same code amongst several developers during its
growth. What swapping occurs usually happens with verbal interchanges between
those involved. Rarely will most people mess with whitespace in the parts of
the file they're not actively altering. This suggests that 'diff'ing with
awareness of whitespace is just fine, necessary in light of your observation.
It suggests that while people certainly "have killed for less", they
certainly had no more reason to than developers over whitespace. It's just
not enough of a problem that is so hard to handle - you take a very open
attitude about it, you automate prettification where prettification is needed
and you start paying attention to things like whether your software works, is
robust, has good logging, excellent documentation, is expandable,
algorithmically sound, efficient, satisfying to use.

Or waste your time worrying about layout while your customers howl for
production releases and new features, or that things stop crashing, or that no
one knows how to use or fix the damn thing.

Just let programmers put (non-significant) whitespace in any reasonable
pattern. More shops have a problem with programmer staff who cannot actually
program than they do with whitespace-motivated homicide.
 
G

gwoodhouse

Thank you everyone for your help.

I'm downloading the eclipse WTP all includsive download with
prequisits from the Eclipse.org site. I've been told if you download
it all as a huge chunk then you actually get the correct editor tools
for jsp/jstl etc.

If you dont hear any more on this thread then - It worked! Huzzah.

link : [http://download.eclipse.org/webtools/downloads/]

Graeme
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=

Hope you can help. I started work in a new company yesterday (hurray)
and the office uses Eclipse. I miss netbeans!!

Problem is, ive been wrestling all day with the thing trying to find a
plugin so it will give me a JSP editor (with predictive text would be
nice) but i can't find one on the eclipse plugin site and the ones
from google seem to want me to pay.

Hopefully someone will know of one and i wont be forced to used
UltraEdit32 :p

Don't worry - Java web app plugins do exist.

If you use Eclipse 3.3, then you can choose to
download a J2EE version that comes with all the
necesarry plugins.

Arne
 
G

Guest

Use NB anyway. Java is Java, and source is just a text file. Class
files are standard, JARs are the same from anywhere. Once you've
produced your artifacts, no one can tell if they were made with Eclipse,
NetBeans or vi + Ant.

All test and production builds should be done from the command line with
Ant. All, always.

They hired you to write software, yes? They didn't hire you to be an
IDE expert, right? So you should use the tool that lets you do the job
for which they pay you.

I think that is questionable advice.

It could bring the poster in problems with his new tech lead.

And some problems could be real: different templates, different
source formatting, IDE project files checked into source control etc..

Arne
 
J

Joe Attardi

Arne said:
I think that is questionable advice.
It could bring the poster in problems with his new tech lead.
If the tech lead relies on a particular IDE being used across the
development team, perhaps he/she shouldn't be a tech lead. The IDE is
just a tool to get the job done.
And some problems could be real: different templates, different
source formatting, IDE project files checked into source control etc..
So use a tool like Checkstyle to enforce any particular coding standards.
 
A

abstract

Ow man, just go to software updates in the eclipse and search for web
tools or WTP.

ps: Discussion about eclipse versus netbeans, is really boring...
 
G

Guest

If the tech lead relies on a particular IDE being used across the
development team, perhaps he/she shouldn't be a tech lead. The IDE is
just a tool to get the job done.

True but time spend on tools still cost the company money.

The tech lead must consider whether the benefits outweigh the cost.

There is a cost associated with every tool used.

I find it hard to believe that there long term will be any
benefits of using NetBeans instead of Eclipse (same the other
way around - there would be a long term benefit of using any
of them instead of notepad).

There are places where developers are allowed to pick the
tools they prefer. But I am pretty sure that the majority
of places has a corporate standard for tools.
So use a tool like Checkstyle to enforce any particular coding standards.

That is just introducing a third tool. It would make it even worse.

Arne
 

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