Help with Java-based RIA Framework

[M. Warble]

Java Community,

I need your help. I have been working full-time (12 - 16 hr days 7 days a
week) for the last year and a half on a Java-based RIA framework. I am just
about to release a beta version of it, but I have run out of my original
funding. I now have to make the decision as to whether or not to secure
more funding. The problem is that because I haven't wanted to release the
product until I felt it had met my own expectations, my product has had very
little visibility so I don't know what the interest level will be in it. I
have just put the nearly complete full-featured demo out on the web and I
was wondering if you would take a few minutes to look at the demo and to
fill out a quick 4 question survey as to your interest level in the product.
I'm hoping that with enough feedback, I'll be able to make an informed
decision as to the direction I should take.

I hope you all will do me this favor, counting lost wages, I have close to
$500k of my own money invested in this product. Even after a year and a
half, I have not lost my original passion for it, and am very pleased with
how it has turned out so far. I just didn't expect it to take this long.

I'm trying not to sound too desperate, but I would really appreciate it if
you took just 3 or 4 minutes to look at the demo. Hopefully you'll be glad
you did.

The demo site is http://www.galileoriaf.com/demos/explorer

Thanks. I sincerely appreciate the time you've taken to read this post.

M. Warble
Creator / Lead developer for Galileo RIAF

 

[none]

I hope you all will do me this favor, counting lost wages, I have close
to $500k of my own money invested in this product.

You spent 500K on an application that you have no idea what direction it
will take or even if people will use it? WOW! And all you have to show
for it is a link that gives me a blank grey screen. Not the best of
starts for such an investment!

 

[Martin Gregorie]

I'm trying not to sound too desperate, but I would really appreciate it
if you took just 3 or 4 minutes to look at the demo. Hopefully you'll
be glad you did.

The demo site is http://www.galileoriaf.com/demos/explorer

I'm unimpressed with the demo site: I'm running Java 6.0_05 and Firefox
3.0.1 under a fully patched copy of Fedora 9, so I really don't
appreciate your site taking as long as it did to tell me that it won't
play nice unless I've installed absolute bleeding edge components.

Given that there are still developers out there using Java 1.4, IMO
you'll get better take up if your demos run with anything later than Java
5 and an equivalent browser, say Firefox 2 / Opera 9.2 / IE 7.

 

[Tom Anderson]

You spent 500K on an application that you have no idea what direction it
will take or even if people will use it? WOW! And all you have to show
for it is a link that gives me a blank grey screen. Not the best of
starts for such an investment!

I think we have to assume he's not talking about US dollars. Maybe the
ones he got in a Monopoly set?

tom

 

[M. Warble]

Well, without an actual product to demo or something tangible to show
people, it would be pretty difficult to get accurate feedback regarding the
probability of user interest. Also, is the assumption that the Java
community would like a pure Java, client-based RIA solution that far out
there? A project of this magnitude wasn't feasible as a part-time project,
at least for me. So I had to make the decision to watch another individual
or company capitalize on one of my ideas while I did nothing or to take the
risk and do it myself. The fact that Sun announced JavaFx several months
after I began my venture, only reinforced that there would be a market for
my product. As far as the actual monetary amount, while $500k is a
substantial amount for most individuals, it's really nothing in terms of
software development costs for a corporation. Anyone who works in the
industry should know that. The only reason I mentioned it was to try to
convey that this product isn't just a hack or pet project and that serious
capital was invested in developing the product.

I appreciate your feedback. If you wouldn't mind could you tell me what OS,
JRE, and browser you were using when you tried to access my site? You are
the first person I've heard mention this problem.

Thanks,
M. Warble

 

[M. Warble]

Thanks for the feedback Patrick. If you wouldn't mind, could you tell me
the OS, JRE, and browser you were using to access my site? Also, I'm
assuming you were accessing it via broadband. Is that correct?

I have not used Adobe Flex, but I would say the biggest reason for using
this over Flex would be that Galileo is a pure Java solution - soup to nuts.
As a Java developer, this is important to me and I imagine would be
important to other Java developers.

Thanks again,
M. Warble

 

[Andrew Thompson]

Java Community,

I need your help.  ...

...the Java Community that collects around usenet
tends not to help multi-posters. Please cross-post
in future.

(X-post to c.l.j.p./g., w/ f-u to c.l.j.p. only.)

 

[none]

As far as the
actual monetary amount, while $500k is a substantial amount for most
individuals,

And that's were you need to stop. Unless of course 500K isn't much to
you, in which case perhaps it would be worth the risk.

it's really nothing in terms of software development costs

for a corporation.

And a corporation would have done a whole lot of research. Including
determining demand, target users who would actually use it, requirements
etc. They would evaluate risk return, release dates and would certainly
not get to a beta release and say, OK, what are we going to do with this
thing?

But I do wish you luck, I give credit to anyone who has the motivation
to get up and have a go .

I appreciate your feedback. If you wouldn't mind could you tell me what
OS, JRE, and browser you were using when you tried to access my site?
You are the first person I've heard mention this problem.

Looks like 5th time lucky. Maybe you made some changes recently. Anyway,
here are the details:

1.6.0_06
Galileo version 1.0
Client OS = Linux
Client Browser = Firefox 2.0.0.16
Client JRE = 1.6.0_06


OS is more specifically Mandriva 2008.1.

 

[none]

Maybe I spoke to soon. All I got was a survey, and when I clicked the
Submit button I got an error about survey.html not found.

Here's a trace:

1.6.0_06
Galileo version 1.0
Client OS = Linux
Client Browser = Firefox 2.0.0.16
Client JRE = 1.6.0_06
Starting Application...
appinit Elapsed Time = 362.3119 ms
Processing Image Prequeue...
0
Processing Document Prequeue...
0
Application started
appstart Elapsed Time = 1477.3322 ms
Downloading survey.html...
java.security.AccessControlException: access denied
(java.net.SocketPermission 72.81.252.90:80 connect,resolve)
galileo.riaf.http.HttpException: access denied
(java.net.SocketPermission 72.81.252.90:80 connect,resolve)
Downloading thanks.html...
java.security.AccessControlException: access denied
(java.net.SocketPermission 72.81.252.90:80 connect,resolve)

 

[Qu0ll]

Java Community,

I need your help. I have been working full-time (12 - 16 hr days 7 days a
week) for the last year and a half on a Java-based RIA framework. I am
just about to release a beta version of it, but I have run out of my
original funding. I now have to make the decision as to whether or not to
secure more funding. The problem is that because I haven't wanted to
release the product until I felt it had met my own expectations, my
product has had very little visibility so I don't know what the interest
level will be in it. I have just put the nearly complete full-featured
demo out on the web and I was wondering if you would take a few minutes to
look at the demo and to fill out a quick 4 question survey as to your
interest level in the product. I'm hoping that with enough feedback, I'll
be able to make an informed decision as to the direction I should take.

I hope you all will do me this favor, counting lost wages, I have close to
$500k of my own money invested in this product. Even after a year and a
half, I have not lost my original passion for it, and am very pleased with
how it has turned out so far. I just didn't expect it to take this long.

I'm trying not to sound too desperate, but I would really appreciate it if
you took just 3 or 4 minutes to look at the demo. Hopefully you'll be
glad you did.

The demo site is http://www.galileoriaf.com/demos/explorer

Thanks. I sincerely appreciate the time you've taken to read this post.

I have had a look at Galileo and what's there appears to be quite well
crafted and functional and it's really quite a lot of output for 18 months
of work.

But here's the problem - Galileo is unknown to the world. Unknown means
untested. Large corporations are not going to use something that may have
unknown security vulnerabilities lurking in the code somewhere. Unknown
means unproven. Large corporations are not going to use something that may
fail under any load of significance or crash with certain browser/OS
combinations. Unknown means lack of resources. Large corporations are not
going to use something for which they cannot hire staff familiar with the
framework. Also, requiring the absolute latest version of Java to run with
excludes most larger corporations who are still working with Java 1.4 or
even 1.3 and are not going to upgrade to Java 6 Update 10 for many years, if
ever.

And you have to ask yourself this question: why would anyone lock themselves
into a closed proprietary technology that costs money when they can get open
well-known and tested technology for free?

You don't want to hear this but my advice is to open source Galileo to give
it some credibility and attempt to make a living out of support services.
Frankly, you should have thought of all of this before throwing away 500
large.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
(e-mail address removed)
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

 

[M. Warble]

Again, thanks I appreciate your feedback.

The problem is that any JRE newer than 1.6.2 will not work with Firefox in
the capacity that I am using it. Firefox 3 requires the new JRE - 1.6.10
and this must also be used with Firefox 2, unless you use a JRE older than
1.6.2. Unfortunately this is something that I do not have control over.
I'm just considering it a temporary headache, no matter how poor the timing,
and am being optimistic that the next generation of the plugin will have
fewer issues.

That said, you should have received a notification informing you of this
when you tried to access my site. There was a bug in my load script so
that didn't happen. It's fixed now. So.... If you'd like to try again,
that'd be great. You seem to be someone who doesn't hold back, so I'd be
interested in your opinion of the product itself so far - aside from the
plugin problems.

 

[M. Warble]

Qu0ll,

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I'm old school and/or niave, but I'm
hoping that by producing a quality product that fills a need, is easy to
use, and is free to use for non-commercial use, that I would be able develop
a respectable user base. The Java community is large and RIA development is
growing. I figure if you get enough satisfied Java developers using the
product for non-commercial purposes, some or many of those developers are
going to try to get their employers to adopt it. Do I expect it to happen
overnight? No. I haven't even released a Beta yet, because I don't want to
release something that I'm not completely satisfied with. Although, I am
very close to releasing the Beta.

My greatest weakness is the plugin. But I had two options - start off by
using the plugin and hope that the next generation plugin improves in
reliability - or write my own. Since the new plugin offers some hope and
the plugin is coming installed standard now with many OS's - Windows Vista,
Mac OS-X, and some Linux distros, I figured I'd take my chances with option
1.

I have to admit I'm pretty surprised by the disinterest and/or hostility
that I've received from the Java community. I thought by trying to provide
Java developers with a pure Java RIA solution that hasn't been hacked, but
has had serious time, energy, and money invested in it and that is aiming to
deliver an experience to the end user that is comparable to other non-Java
RIA products, that there'd be a little more support and enthusiasm. I'd
thought I'd be received as a liberator, not an occupier.

I'm not ready to concede that I've thrown away my money. Like I said I
haven't even released a Beta. This is really the first effort I've made to
promote it and this is just so I can get some constructive feedback on the
product itself so I can decide whether or not to continue full-time
development or part-time it. There are still people out there developing
Swing apps and applets and at a minimum Galileo would be a big improvement
to that crowd. The current framework is for browser-based applications,
but I should be able to spawn off an initial desktop version with just a few
days work, if there seems to be interest in that. After the first release,
I plan to use the product itself to build a GUI designer that can be used by
developers and non-developers (graphic artists) to produce application
components or full applications just as easy as it is for them to with HTML
now.

Like I said, I've been working 18 months non-stop on this thing. I
literally have been drinking, eating, and sleeping (not much of that though)
this thing. Is a little interest and moral support from the developer
community that would benefit from it, that much to ask? Jeez.

Thanks again for your time and feedback.
M. Warble

Java Community,

I need your help. I have been working full-time (12 - 16 hr days 7 days
a week) for the last year and a half on a Java-based RIA framework. I am
just about to release a beta version of it, but I have run out of my
original funding. I now have to make the decision as to whether or not
to secure more funding. The problem is that because I haven't wanted to
release the product until I felt it had met my own expectations, my
product has had very little visibility so I don't know what the interest
level will be in it. I have just put the nearly complete full-featured
demo out on the web and I was wondering if you would take a few minutes
to look at the demo and to fill out a quick 4 question survey as to your
interest level in the product. I'm hoping that with enough feedback, I'll
be able to make an informed decision as to the direction I should take.

I hope you all will do me this favor, counting lost wages, I have close
to $500k of my own money invested in this product. Even after a year and
a half, I have not lost my original passion for it, and am very pleased
with how it has turned out so far. I just didn't expect it to take this
long.

I'm trying not to sound too desperate, but I would really appreciate it
if you took just 3 or 4 minutes to look at the demo. Hopefully you'll be
glad you did.

The demo site is http://www.galileoriaf.com/demos/explorer

Thanks. I sincerely appreciate the time you've taken to read this post.

I have had a look at Galileo and what's there appears to be quite well
crafted and functional and it's really quite a lot of output for 18 months
of work.

But here's the problem - Galileo is unknown to the world. Unknown means
untested. Large corporations are not going to use something that may have
unknown security vulnerabilities lurking in the code somewhere. Unknown
means unproven. Large corporations are not going to use something that
may fail under any load of significance or crash with certain browser/OS
combinations. Unknown means lack of resources. Large corporations are
not going to use something for which they cannot hire staff familiar with
the framework. Also, requiring the absolute latest version of Java to run
with excludes most larger corporations who are still working with Java 1.4
or even 1.3 and are not going to upgrade to Java 6 Update 10 for many
years, if ever.

And you have to ask yourself this question: why would anyone lock
themselves into a closed proprietary technology that costs money when they
can get open well-known and tested technology for free?

You don't want to hear this but my advice is to open source Galileo to
give it some credibility and attempt to make a living out of support
services. Frankly, you should have thought of all of this before throwing
away 500 large.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
(e-mail address removed)
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

 

[Qu0ll]

Qu0ll,

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I'm old school and/or niave, but I'm
hoping that by producing a quality product that fills a need, is easy to
use, and is free to use for non-commercial use, that I would be able
develop a respectable user base. The Java community is large and RIA
development is growing. I figure if you get enough satisfied Java
developers using the product for non-commercial purposes, some or many of
those developers are going to try to get their employers to adopt it. Do
I expect it to happen overnight? No. I haven't even released a Beta yet,
because I don't want to release something that I'm not completely
satisfied with. Although, I am very close to releasing the Beta.

My greatest weakness is the plugin. But I had two options - start off by
using the plugin and hope that the next generation plugin improves in
reliability - or write my own. Since the new plugin offers some hope and
the plugin is coming installed standard now with many OS's - Windows
Vista, Mac OS-X, and some Linux distros, I figured I'd take my chances
with option 1.

I have to admit I'm pretty surprised by the disinterest and/or hostility
that I've received from the Java community. I thought by trying to
provide Java developers with a pure Java RIA solution that hasn't been
hacked, but has had serious time, energy, and money invested in it and
that is aiming to deliver an experience to the end user that is comparable
to other non-Java RIA products, that there'd be a little more support and
enthusiasm. I'd thought I'd be received as a liberator, not an occupier.


I'm not ready to concede that I've thrown away my money. Like I said I
haven't even released a Beta. This is really the first effort I've made
to promote it and this is just so I can get some constructive feedback on
the product itself so I can decide whether or not to continue full-time
development or part-time it. There are still people out there developing
Swing apps and applets and at a minimum Galileo would be a big improvement
to that crowd. The current framework is for browser-based applications,
but I should be able to spawn off an initial desktop version with just a
few days work, if there seems to be interest in that. After the first
release, I plan to use the product itself to build a GUI designer that can
be used by developers and non-developers (graphic artists) to produce
application components or full applications just as easy as it is for them
to with HTML now.

Like I said, I've been working 18 months non-stop on this thing. I
literally have been drinking, eating, and sleeping (not much of that
though) this thing. Is a little interest and moral support from the
developer community that would benefit from it, that much to ask? Jeez.

Thanks again for your time and feedback.

There's no hostility from me (none intentional anyway). I am merely trying
to point out the realities of the situation. If the product is good enough
it will succeed despite the potential roadblocks and I for one wish you well
with this. You have taken a huge risk because you believe in your idea and
I respect you for that. It will be an uphill battle but if you have the
financial resources to hang in there for a long time it might succeed. Just
don't expect everyone to jump on your bandwagon overnight.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
(e-mail address removed)
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

 

[magloca]

Please don't top-post; it is annoying. Thanks.

M. Warble @ Thursday 04 September 2008 02:50:

I have to admit I'm pretty surprised by the disinterest and/or
hostility
that I've received from the Java community. I thought by trying to
provide Java developers with a pure Java RIA solution that hasn't been
hacked, but has had serious time, energy, and money invested in it and
that is aiming to deliver an experience to the end user that is
comparable to other non-Java
RIA products, that there'd be a little more support and enthusiasm.
I'd thought I'd be received as a liberator, not an occupier.

In the comments I've seen, I wouldn't say I've seen much hostility.
Skepticism and questioning, sure, but if you're going to persist in
releasing this product of yours commercially, you're going to hear
much, much worse things about it, your company and yourself in the
future, especially if you're successful.

On a different note, here are my two cents: Think about what it is that
you want out of this project of yours. Do you want to be famous for
having designed the best damn rich Internet application environment
there is? Then, I'd say, open-source it; you're not going to make it on
your own. No matter how clever you are, there are only twenty-four
hours in a day.

Do you want to start a successful commercial venture around this
product? Then start diverting time and energy away from development and
towards social networking, partnerships, demonstrations,
presentations -- just about anything you can think of to increase
awareness of your business. And I mean a *lot* of time and energy. At
least half of whatever is available to you (I understand you work
full-time on this project).

Why at least half? Because "build it, and they will come" doesn't work
in the real world, no matter how good your product is. The opposite,
though, does work: it's perfectly possible to sell a horrible product
through a fanatical devotion to strategic partnerships,
shoulder-rubbing and sales in general. The best balance is probably to
have a decent product and a slightly-less-than-fanatical devotion to
sales. Being hackers, you and I may not like this state of affairs, but
it's a reality we need to adapt to if what we want is to make lots of
money. If we simply want to code cool stuff and have fun, we're free to
do that, but commercial success is unlikely and we may as well
open-source our projects.

m.

 

[Jon Bettinger]

-snip-

> The opposite,
though, does work: it's perfectly possible to sell a horrible product
through a fanatical devotion to strategic partnerships,
shoulder-rubbing and sales in general.

-snip-

Witness the success of websphere (and IBM software in general)

 

[Stefan Ram]

Witness the success of websphere (and IBM software in general)

What Samuel H. Valentine said about programming languages in
1974 might well apply to other categories of products, too.

"Unfortunately, the success or failure of a computer
language is often dependent on factors unrelated to its
technical merits (...)"

S. H. Valentin in "The Computer Journal", Vol. 17, No. 4, p. 331

@article{DBLP:journals/cj/Valentine74,
author = {Samuel H. Valentine},
title = {Comparative Notes on ALGOL 68 and PL/I.},
journal = {Comput. J.},
volume = {17},
number = {4},
year = {1974},
pages = {325-331},
bibsource = {DBLP, http://dblp.uni-trier.de}
}

http://dblp.uni-trier.de/rec/bibtex/journals/cj/Valentine74

 

[none]

Your version of Firefox requires the next release of the Java web
browser plug-in from Sun Microsystems to work with this site.

JRE Version 1.6.10

You can download and install it by clicking here.

If you prefer not to install this version of the plugin, we recommend
using Microsoft Internet Explorer temporarily to view our site.