HTML 4.01 Transitional versus Frameset

[Max]

what is the difference between HTML 4.01 Transitional versus Frameset?
Am I right to think that Frameset is a superset of Transitional, or
are there differences? If a document does not contain frames, is there
any difference between Transitional and Frameset?

Yes, I am looking at this from the point of view of validation,
specifically http://validator.w3.org/

 

[Adrienne Boswell]

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed (e-mail address removed) writing in

what is the difference between HTML 4.01 Transitional versus Frameset?
Am I right to think that Frameset is a superset of Transitional, or
are there differences? If a document does not contain frames, is there
any difference between Transitional and Frameset?

Yes, I am looking at this from the point of view of validation,
specifically http://validator.w3.org/

Frameset is for frame documents only, where framedoc.html looks like:
<frameset ...>
<frame src="page.html">
<frame src="other.html">
</frameset>

Framedoc.html would use the Frameset DTD, page.html and other.html should
use Strict. New documents should use a Strict DTD.

 

[Arne]

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed (e-mail address removed) writing in


Frameset is for frame documents only, where framedoc.html looks like:
<frameset ...>
<frame src="page.html">
<frame src="other.html">
</frameset>

Framedoc.html would use the Frameset DTD, page.html and other.html should
use Strict. New documents should use a Strict DTD.

I belive you are wrong. To avoid a link in a framed page to a extern
site loaded within your frames, you must use the target attribute and
that's not valid i Strict. So framed pages should be Transitional.

 

[dorayme]

I belive you are wrong. To avoid a link in a framed page to a extern
site loaded within your frames, you must use the target attribute and
that's not valid i Strict. So framed pages should be Transitional.

I dug out an old framed site of mine and it accords with what
Adrienne says and validates. In other words, it has the frameset
DTD for the frameset but the other strict 4.01 for the docs that
the frames refer to. But I think there is an issue surrounding
this and have forgotten.

 

[Harlan Messinger]

I dug out an old framed site of mine and it accords with what
Adrienne says and validates. In other words, it has the frameset
DTD for the frameset but the other strict 4.01 for the docs that
the frames refer to. But I think there is an issue surrounding
this and have forgotten.

Not the one Arne mentioned? Most of the time when someone uses frames,
the purpose is at least in part to display static navigation links in
one or more of the frames that, when activated, load some document into
another of the frames. To do that (without Javascript), you need the
"target" attribute, and Strict doesn't have that. Of course, you can use
Strict for documents that have no references to the containing frameset
or any of its other frames.

 

[David Dorward]

I dug out an old framed site of mine and it accords with what
Adrienne says and validates. In other words, it has the frameset
DTD for the frameset but the other strict 4.01 for the docs that
the frames refer to. But I think there is an issue surrounding
this and have forgotten.

That you have no links that open in the same frame, or that you depend on
JavaScript for the links to open in a sane frame? (of course a really sane
frame would be _top so that bookmarking still worked).

 

[dorayme]

I dug out an old framed site of mine and it accords with what
Adrienne says and validates. In other words, it has the frameset
DTD for the frameset but the other strict 4.01 for the docs that
the frames refer to. But I think there is an issue surrounding
this and have forgotten.

Not the one Arne mentioned? Most of the time when someone uses frames,
the purpose is at least in part to display static navigation links in
one or more of the frames that, when activated, load some document into
another of the frames. To do that (without Javascript), you need the
"target" attribute, and Strict doesn't have that. Of course, you can use
Strict for documents that have no references to the containing frameset
or any of its other frames.[/QUOTE]

You are right, I was too hasty... I dug the thing out, God, it
was dusty, and stuck a test link in to an external site on it

<a href="http://somedomain.com.au" target="_top">here</a>

and it worked fine on my tests! Plus, I relied too much on iCab's
smiling uncomplaining validation icon face. Sorry Arne... And
then, with more poking about, I found I did have Transitional on
lots of the inner frames and likely for this reason. It is really
sad how one forgets a much loved technology so quickly....

 

[dorayme]

But I think there is an issue surrounding

That you have no links that open in the same frame, or that you depend on
JavaScript for the links to open in a sane frame? (of course a really sane
frame would be _top so that bookmarking still worked).

You are right and my adding one briefly to see was not thoroughly
tested... see my to Harlan...

 

[Gus Richter]

Not the one Arne mentioned? Most of the time when someone uses frames,
the purpose is at least in part to display static navigation links in
one or more of the frames that, when activated, load some document into
another of the frames. To do that (without Javascript), you need the
"target" attribute, and Strict doesn't have that. Of course, you can use
Strict for documents that have no references to the containing frameset
or any of its other frames.

You are right, I was too hasty... I dug the thing out, God, it
was dusty, and stuck a test link in to an external site on it

<a href="http://somedomain.com.au" target="_top">here</a>

and it worked fine on my tests! Plus, I relied too much on iCab's
smiling uncomplaining validation icon face. Sorry Arne... And
then, with more poking about, I found I did have Transitional on
lots of the inner frames and likely for this reason. It is really
sad how one forgets a much loved technology so quickly....[/QUOTE]

Too hasty again, I believe.
I had to go back and look at my notes and examples also. There are 3
types of pages involded here.
Frameset, which requires the frameset dtd.
Transitional, which is required for the typical navigation frame where
the "target" is required.
Strict or Transitional for the pages being inserted into the frames and
where "target" is typically not required.

All rather moot since frameless frames should be the way to go today.

 

[dorayme]

Too hasty again, I believe.

Not quite following you re this... but I am not sure we are in
any disagreement otherwise...

 

[Max]

Why doesn't Strict have target? How are you supposed to get the same
results using Strict? Does XHTML not have target?

Too hasty again, I believe.
I had to go back and look at my notes and examples also. There are 3
types of pages involded here.
Frameset, which requires the frameset dtd.
Transitional, which is required for the typical navigation frame where
the "target" is required.
Strict or Transitional for the pages being inserted into the frames and
where "target" is typically not required.

All rather moot since frameless frames should be the way to go today.

How do you get the effect of frameless frames? If you want a small
left frame to load documents into a larger right frame, without using
frames, how would you do it?

 

[Andy Dingley]

Why doesn't Strict have target?

Search the ng archives for long discussions of this

Target doesn't work particularly well. Also it was usually used either
for frames, or annoyingly and inappropriately. So it was pulled from
Strict with the intention that something better would replace it ASAP
(that was 10 years ago).

How are you supposed to get the same
results using Strict?

Use transitional instead (works fine)

Use target and lose a trivial validity issue

Use JavaScript instead

Wait for its replacement.

Does XHTML not have target?

XHTML 1.0 comes in Strict, Transitional and Frameset, same as HTML 4.01

 

[dorayme]

Why doesn't Strict have target? How are you supposed to get the same
results using Strict?

A question I once wondered about myself. I concluded it was out
of pure spite against a much hated technology. If I recall, you
can do it in Strict by not worrying about the validation? Or you
grab the Strict and make it ex-Strict - change the DTD to
Transitional.

How do you get the effect of frameless frames? If you want a small
left frame to load documents into a larger right frame, without using
frames, how would you do it?

That is easy if we are talking appearances here, with some
allowances of difference. You simply make an HTML page that has a
left column (it can be a <div> floated left or positioned left,
or a left table cell), and the clicked links load another HTML
page with the "same" left column but different right column.

In respect to the left column, the identity is not numerical,
just attributional. Think of identical twins, (no... not
Schwarzenegger and DeVito) there are two, but you cannot easily
tell them apart.

Downside is considerable, true, but everyone seems to have got
used to it: unlike in frames, the left col scrolls with the
right. There are ways to stop this but they are not well
supported across all the browsers and there may be other
downsides I have forgotten.

 

[Number 11950 - GPEMC! Replace number with 11950]

[SNIP]

How do you get the effect of frameless frames? If you want a small
left frame to load documents into a larger right frame, without using
frames, how would you do it?

Personally, I'd avoid using Java, VB Script, .NET, or any other client side
scripting. If you do resort to client side scripting, you'll lose the custom
of any visitors savvy enough to spend money on products hosted at your
website, because experienced web-shoppers do *_not_* run client-side scripts
for obvious anti-theft reasons.

Frames mess up your accessibility and search engine rankings - even the
noframes content is largely ignored in my experience. Google for "Different
and yet indifferent", then have a look at www.fieldcraft.biz/topics

I might well have messed up by not including <noframes> tags with the iframe
content, yet in the past these tags have made no difference and in the
future, all this material will be upgraded to the combination of SSI, CSS, &
HTML 4.01 STRICT that I recommend. Examples of this method are at:

www.geoceanis.com
www.fieldcraft.com.au
www.qaisoft.com

These sites are still under construction so don't forget your PPE and try
not to fall through any of the numerous dead links! :^)

Web Sergeant 2006 will build this kind of page to international standards
with dropdown menus and link generation automated to site structure. If
interested, keep an eye on www.fieldcraft.biz/software/web-menus, but be
warned, when the new product hits the market the bragging will probably be
nauseating! In fact, the framed content is slated to form the test bed -
assuming the new product gets out of the realm of vapourware prior to
2007...!

Eh! Here's to gagging at the bragging! :^)

 

[Stephen Poley]

Why doesn't Strict have target? How are you supposed to get the same
results using Strict?

You get the same results (at least in the browsers with which I am
familiar) by holding the Shift key down while clicking on the link.

And if "you" was intended to refer to the page author: it's reasonable
to assume that if the user doesn't do this, then he/she doesn't *want*
another window, so who are you to impose one?

I have several times heard users complain about all the windows which
some sites imposed upon them. I have not heard anyone complain about the
lack of extra windows.

 

[Chris Morris]

I have several times heard users complain about all the windows which
some sites imposed upon them. I have not heard anyone complain about the
lack of extra windows.

I have, once - where someone was filling in an extended form, and some
browsers would reset the form if they used the back button after
clicking on the 'extra information on field X' link.

The short-term solution was to add 'new window' links, which stopped
the complaints (and we'd had quite a few to that point). They were
additional to, not replacing, the same window ones. I suppose an
alternative might have been to explain on the page how to open links
in a new window, but the browsers in use were diverse and it would
have badly cluttered the page.

The long-term and better solution to that was to completely rewrite
the application interface to make the extra information available on
the same page as the form, and to put in better state handling so the
form field contents weren't lost when people changed what extra
information they viewed.

Naturally, this is a case in a thousand where the normal
recommendations don't apply (due to other design flaws, as it
happened), and I agree entirely with the recommendation in general.

 

[Dr John Stockton]

JRS: In article <[email protected]>,
dated Sat, 16 Sep 2006 03:01:09 remote, seen in

Search the ng archives for long discussions of this

Those on dial-up would prefer a short answer.

Target doesn't work particularly well. Also it was usually used either
for frames, or annoyingly and inappropriately. So it was pulled from
Strict with the intention that something better would replace it ASAP
(that was 10 years ago).


Use transitional instead (works fine)

Use target and lose a trivial validity issue

Use JavaScript instead

Most of my pages (incl sig line 3) contain a line like

<a href="datecalc.htm" target="_top">No-Frame</a> *

for getting back out of a Frame. What javascript would you use instead?
Of course, javascript may not be enabled; most of my pages don't need
(though may use) it. That's usually the only (known) validity issue on
my pages.

 

[Stan Brown]

Sun, 17 Sep 2006 09:00:53 +0200 from Stephen Poley

You get the same results (at least in the browsers with which I am
familiar) by holding the Shift key down while clicking on the link.

Firefox and Mozilla use Shift-Click for "save link target as...".
Ctrl-click opens the link within a new tab rather than a separate
window, a very nice feature. (Firefox does this natively; Mozilla
needs the tabbed browsing extension or Multizilla extension.)

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Why We Won't Help You:
http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/05/05/why_we_wont_help_you

 

[Gus Richter]

How do you get the effect of frameless frames? If you want a small
left frame to load documents into a larger right frame, without using
frames, how would you do it?

Combination of css and html.
Basically, you create a box (div), give it an overflow:auto to
automatically give the scrollbars when needed, and load an object
(remote file) into it. An example with some values:

..frame1
{
text-align: left;
padding: 15px;
overflow:auto;
float: left; /* or position as needed */
height:xxxpx;
width: xx%;
}


<div class="frame1">
<object type="text/html" data="URLofPageToBeLoaded.htm" height="xxx"
width="xxx">
</object>

You can create and position as many as you want on a page.

 

[Stephen Poley]

Sun, 17 Sep 2006 09:00:53 +0200 from Stephen Poley


Firefox and Mozilla use Shift-Click for "save link target as...".

Odd. My copy of Firefox uses Shift-click for "open in new window".
Version-dependent? Configurable?

Ctrl-click opens the link within a new tab rather than a separate
window, a very nice feature.

Yes. (That's actually what Opera does with Shift-Click.)