html cross-browser help

K

Kevin Audleman

Hi,

I've written some code that works fine in Firefox and Safari, but not
IE 6 on the PC. I can't seem to figure out what is wrong with my code,
especially because the other browsers render it just fine.

I was wondering if anybody could take a look and tell me -OR- point me
in the direction of a good reference for browser compatibility issues.

The site is here: http://quick2m.com/izzy/index.php

And the header is the issue (big gaps show up).

Thanks,
Kevin
 
D

dorayme

<[email protected]
Kevin Audleman said:
I've written some code that works fine in Firefox and Safari, but not
IE 6 on the PC. I can't seem to figure out what is wrong with my code,
especially because the other browsers render it just fine.

I was wondering if anybody could take a look and tell me -OR- point me
in the direction of a good reference for browser compatibility issues.

The site is here: http://quick2m.com/izzy/index.php

And the header is the issue (big gaps show up).

Look at
<http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http://quick2m.
com%2Fizzy%2Findex.php> first and fix what you can.
 
R

rf

Kevin Audleman said:
Hi,

I've written some code that works fine in Firefox and Safari, but not
IE 6 on the PC. I can't seem to figure out what is wrong with my code,
especially because the other browsers render it just fine.

I was wondering if anybody could take a look and tell me -OR- point me
in the direction of a good reference for browser compatibility issues.

The site is here: http://quick2m.com/izzy/index.php

And the header is the issue (big gaps show up).

You are abusing tables for layout and this is one of the hazards. You can
*not* ensure that those cells containing the images will not expand to
contain their content.

Watch what happens when you increase your font size a few notches, even with
Firefox. Everything falls apart.

Why are you using images of text? The is a severe accessibility problem.
 
K

Kevin Audleman

You are abusing tables for layout and this is one of the hazards. You can
*not* ensure that those cells containing the images will not expand to
contain their content.

Watch what happens when you increase your font size a few notches, even with
Firefox. Everything falls apart.

Why are you using images of text? The is a severe accessibility problem.

Richard,
I'm somewhat new to this and didn't realize I was abusing tables. I
tried increasing font size in Firefox and just like you said my design
fell apart. Yikes! Is there a better method for doing this?

A lot of the text-in-images is just there as a placeholder. In the end
the only text that will be an image is the logo.

Kevin

P.S. dorayme thanks for pointing out the validator to me!
 
T

Travis Newbury

I'm somewhat new to this and didn't realize I was abusing tables.

Well that only depends on who you are talking to. There are several
divisions here. One is over using tables for layout. There are those
that say it is ALWAYS a no-no, and those that say "why deal with all
this browser incompatibility CSS crap and go with tables until the
browsers get it right." You decide.

You should probably try to work with CSS design, but if you are
between a rock and a hard place remember that MOST of your visitors
will be arriving using IE.
I tried increasing font size in Firefox and just like you said my design
fell apart. Yikes! Is there a better method for doing this?

Again, that depends. If you want your layout to look about the same
on everyone's computer, then no, you are doing it right. A few people
that come to your site with ridicules large font setting may not see
your site the way you want them to. But remember they deal with this
on a daily bases and are very used to making adjustments as needs (or
they just leave your site and never return) Will them leaving hurt
your business? Maybe, that depends on what you are selling. No one
can answer that for you but you.

Now, If you don't care how things are laid out, and are only concerned
with the content that is there, then yes, there is a better way.
Google flexible design and you will receive a ton of examples.
 
D

dorayme

<[email protected]
m>,
didn't realize I was abusing tables. I
tried increasing font size in Firefox and just like you [...rf...] said my design
fell apart. Yikes! Is there a better method for doing this?

A lot of the text-in-images is just there as a placeholder. In the end
the only text that will be an image is the logo.

Kevin

P.S. dorayme thanks for pointing out the validator to me!


There is no inherent reason that a table layout should "break"
when you enlarge text size. This sort of breaking is usually
caused by the author trying to too heavily constrain the table
layout with cell size dimensions. Being fluid and using tables
are not quite incompatible bedfellows.

nevertheless, you might read:

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/tables-vs-css
 
S

Sam UK

dorayme said:
There is no inherent reason that a table layout should "break"
when you enlarge text size. This sort of breaking is usually
caused by the author trying to too heavily constrain the table
layout with cell size dimensions. Being fluid and using tables
are not quite incompatible bedfellows.

nevertheless, you might read:

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/tables-vs-css

That article is a bit misleading due to its all-or-nothing approach. In
reality, you have the option of using mostly CSS for layout but relying
on tables to achieve things that are unreasonably difficult to do with
CSS, such as side by side columns of equal height or footers that are
aligned to the bottom of the browser window.

Most of my sites are pure CSS except for tabular data, but given the
choice between messing around with fiddly and over-complex CSS hacks
like faux columns to achieve an effect that is trivial with a table, I
don't feel much guilt about using a table.
 
D

dorayme

Sam UK said:
That article is a bit misleading due to its all-or-nothing approach. In
reality, you have the option of using mostly CSS for layout but relying
on tables to achieve things that are unreasonably difficult to do with
CSS, such as side by side columns of equal height or footers that are
aligned to the bottom of the browser window.

Most of my sites are pure CSS except for tabular data, but given the
choice between messing around with fiddly and over-complex CSS hacks
like faux columns to achieve an effect that is trivial with a table, I
don't feel much guilt about using a table.

That is fair enough. The interesting question is how difficult is
it to achieve the column look? For many standards compliant
browsers, there are many strategies that any keen person or
professional author should be able to manage without too much
trouble. A lot depends on the details of what is wanted and the
requirements for cross browser purposes can lead to mess and
fiddle.

You should feel even less guilt when you realise that it is
pretty hard to make first class semantic markup and columns
without tables.

There is another approach you can take. Go as much as your skill
allows for semantic markup, design as much as you can without
needing the visual look of equal length columns that have their
own coloured backgrounds. And when you do fancy to have such,
keep the requirements simple so that you can at least reduce the
fiddle to a minimum.

As it happens, I am looking into this business of equal columns
and have a small set of pages at
<http://netweaver.com.au/floatHouse/> which only yesterday was
added to with a page 10. I am in the middle of making a page on
faux columning too, and more on this are planned as it is seems
so popular a desire to make columns that look like such.

I am aware that it is one thing to expound on some of the
possible strategies and real world applications, that maybe it is
because it is a bit fiddly that it makes for a nice hobby. <g>
 
B

Ben C

On 2008-02-08 said:
As it happens, I am looking into this business of equal columns
and have a small set of pages at
<http://netweaver.com.au/floatHouse/> which only yesterday was
added to with a page 10. I am in the middle of making a page on
faux columning too, and more on this are planned as it is seems
so popular a desire to make columns that look like such.

Your nested three-column design (Fig 2) is interesting, but it does
require that the text in the pink column is shorter than the higher of
the yellow and green ones, and that the text in the yellow column is
shorter than that in the green.
 
D

dorayme

Ben C said:
Your nested three-column design (Fig 2) is interesting, but it does
require that the text in the pink column is shorter than the higher of
the yellow and green ones, and that the text in the yellow column is
shorter than that in the green.

Actually, I have just this minute uploaded some changes, mainly
to the explanatory spiels within the columns on this one. I only
made this page yesterday and am putting in some extra details as
I see fit.

In the engine for this technique - the iterative use of "nuclear"
families - it *is* true that one must know, for each nuclear
component, which of the two siblings within is the longest in
advance.

The text in the pink column certainly needs to be less than the
higher of the two children in the first nuclear family - as you
say.

A severe general limitation for some sites that are under a lot
of development! But in many cases, it just is known which is
longest of a number of columns and so some people might find this
sort of technique useful.

If I had the power to influence, I would advise people not to be
over keen on equal height table style cols.

(I think page 11 will be on using that background image technique
one reads about. I have made some demos already and it is a lot
of fun and quite easy to do.)
 
D

dorayme

Ben C said:
Ben C said:
[...]
As it happens, I am looking into this business of equal columns
and have a small set of pages at
<http://netweaver.com.au/floatHouse/> which only yesterday was
added to with a page 10. I am in the middle of making a page on
faux columning too, and more on this are planned as it is seems
so popular a desire to make columns that look like such.
[...]
(I think page 11 will be on using that background image technique
one reads about. I have made some demos already and it is a lot
of fun and quite easy to do.)

I like this one, which has been posted here before:

http://www.nrkn.com/3ColEqualPositioned/

It seems to me one of the more natural ways of solving the problem.

Yes, I have seen Nick's page before. Interesting. It uses a bit
of absolute positioning too. There are quite a few ways to go
about these things.

So far, I have been keeping to more purely floating layouts in
those pages of mine and not really tackling practical whole page
layouts, more rather about the sorts of things floats are, what
they can be used to build elementarily etc.
 
D

dorayme

Ben C said:
Your nested three-column design (Fig 2) is interesting, but it does
require that the text in the pink column is shorter than the higher of
the yellow and green ones, and that the text in the yellow column is
shorter than that in the green.

I don't know whether I made it clear but one of my motives for
this particular method was its basic simplicity of concept and
its generational potential. The idea being you start with a
nuclear family and keep adding them as children in further
nuclear families to build as many columns as you please. The sort
of thing that has a simple algorithmic base (with the limitation
you point out about having to know longest col). Perhaps it would
be easy to program a wysiwyg to make it all?
 
B

Ben C

I don't know whether I made it clear but one of my motives for
this particular method was its basic simplicity of concept and
its generational potential. The idea being you start with a
nuclear family and keep adding them as children in further
nuclear families to build as many columns as you please. The sort
of thing that has a simple algorithmic base (with the limitation
you point out about having to know longest col). Perhaps it would
be easy to program a wysiwyg to make it all?

In general you need to know more than just the longest col-- you need
all the cols sorted in order of length. Each level of the tree contains
a "leaf" (a single float) and its sibling, another nuclear family or
subtree. At _each_ level the leaf must be shorter than the subtree, for
it all to work.

Sorting the columns in order of height is easy to do approximately,
especially if all they contain is text, but in general it's not possible
without actually laying the page out in a browser following all the
complicated rules for line-breaking, line-box height, positioning and
width and height calculations. And in some cases the final height order
would be affected by the user's choice of viewport width, font size and
family.

The other question is the HTML. The most natural is three divs side by
side for the three columns with maybe an extra wrapper or clearer here
and there to make it work. Going to three levels of nesting is OK but
probably doesn't reflect the "semantic" structure of the document (blah
blah etc.)-- it just reflects the expected order of their final heights.

When trying to do three columns, it's possible to make the container's
height take the maximum height of the three. It's then possible to fake
up a background for each column based on that known container height,
either using borders or background images creatively on the container,
or by sliding in some absolutely positioned divs behind the columns as
in Nik Coughlin's version.

This works because absolutely positioned elements are the only things
whose height can be set to be the same as the automatic height of their
containers: circularity is avoided because a container's used auto
height depends only on its _normal-flow_ descendents (and in some cases
floats), never on the positioned ones.

At the moment your document is about floats and how they affect heights
of other elements. You'd need another chapter about absolute positioning
to link to...

But the background image and border tricks fit in perfectly well with
the rest of the document.

The nuclear family method is a good example for explaining how things
work, so I would leave it in there, explain the height-order problem,
and then go on to some border/background tricks. But of course it's your
doc and it's up to you.
 
D

dorayme

Ben C said:
Ben C said:
[...]
As it happens, I am looking into this business of equal columns
and have a small set of pages at
<http://netweaver.com.au/floatHouse/> which only yesterday was
added to with a page 10.
I don't know whether I made it clear but one of my motives for
this particular method was its basic simplicity of concept and
its generational potential. The idea being you start with a
nuclear family and keep adding them as children in further
nuclear families to build as many columns as you please. The sort
of thing that has a simple algorithmic base (with the limitation
you point out about having to know longest col). Perhaps it would
be easy to program a wysiwyg to make it all?

In general you need to know more than just the longest col-- you need
all the cols sorted in order of length.

Yes, you need to know too much for a lot of practical purposes as
you detail below. I was having a few thoughts at once when doing
the page. The main thought was the further exploration of how
floats work and how they do 'basic' columning.

This other thought of mine about nuclear generation smacks too
much of the practical and could be misleading! I will tone it
down or make some things clearer about the impracticalities next
time I visit the page. I would be unlikely to employ the method
myself in practice for more than the basic nuclear family with 2
cols.

I must be careful not to stray too much into the area of a manual
on "How to make good website pages" or "Introduction to best
webpage layout practice". The whole set of pages is not really
about that and I am not sure I should be presuming to tell folk
about these things too heavily. To adapt a phrase of Dirty Harry,
Sorting the columns in order of height is easy to do approximately,
especially if all they contain is text, but in general it's not possible
without actually laying the page out in a browser [...] And in some cases the final height order
would be affected by the user's choice of viewport width, font size and
family.

The other question is the HTML. The most natural is three divs side by
side for the three columns with maybe an extra wrapper or clearer here
and there to make it work. Going to three levels of nesting is OK but
probably doesn't reflect the "semantic" structure of the document (blah
blah etc.)-- it just reflects the expected order of their final heights.

Ah, the HTML, indeed this is something I am conscious of and one
more reason for toning down the generational aspect of this
nuclear family thing.

When trying to do three columns, it's possible to make the container's
height take the maximum height of the three. It's then possible to fake
up a background for each column based on that known container height,
either using borders or background images creatively on the container,
or by sliding in some absolutely positioned divs behind the columns as
in Nik Coughlin's version.

This works because absolutely positioned elements are the only things
whose height can be set to be the same as the automatic height of their
containers: circularity is avoided because a container's used auto
height depends only on its _normal-flow_ descendents (and in some cases
floats), never on the positioned ones.

I guess if I am thinking of adding something about faux columns
in relation to floats (as I am doing) there is no reason in
principle not to have something on floats that get some help from
 
K

Kevin Audleman

Hey everyone,

Great discussion! I just thought I'd mention that I've figured out how
to use nested div tags and have made a new design that is cross-
browser compatible. You can check it out here: http://quick2m.com/izzy/index.php

I found that I could do almost everything with div tags. The only
exception was the three links in the top right corner. I wanted them
to take up 33% of the space right of the tab each, and I couldn't see
how to do that with divs. With a table it was easy.

Thanks for the stimulating conversation, all.

Kevin
 
D

dorayme

dorayme said:
Ben C said:
[...]
As it happens, I am looking into this business of equal columns
and have a small set of pages at
<http://netweaver.com.au/floatHouse/> which only yesterday was
added to with a page 10.
In general you need to know more than just the longest col-- you need
all the cols sorted in order of length.
This other thought of mine about nuclear generation smacks too
much of the practical and could be misleading! I will tone it
down or make some things clearer about the impracticalities next
time I visit the page. I would be unlikely to employ the method
myself in practice for more than the basic nuclear family with 2
cols.

Actually, I have completely rewritten page 10 now and got down to
more elementary tin tacks. The nuclear family has become a one
float one and caveats about such columning have been put in. I
can already see several more pages ahead on related matters! (I
need things to turn to when I get bored or bleary eyed with paid
work <g>)
 

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