Java vs. C#

[ccc31807]

See http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/12/17/dot_net_noughties/

Perl hackers seem to be platform agnostic, although with a Unix
history and bias. Probably 98% of the scripts I write are for Windows
applications and for users on Windows machines, and ActiveState
probably accounts for a substantial percentage of Perl Environments.

Java hackers seem to be the same. All of the Java programmers I know
write applications targeted toward Windows systems, and all of the
Java applications I've worked on target Windows.

In the past couple of years, I've had conversations with C#
developers, and they all say great things about C#. I consider some of
the people very bright and accomplished folks, and am inclined to give
a great weight to their opinions. My own experience with C# is slight,
so I can only rely on the opinions of those who use C# and .NET.
However, one thing C# and .NET is /not/ is platform agnostic.

I don't feel that I have a dog in this fight, and it's immaterial
whether Java or C# is in the ascendancy.My take FWIW is that we are
experiencing a great explosion of languages and technologies: Perl,
Python, Erlang, Scala, Ruby (maybe), Clojure, even Common Lisp seems
to be coming back (Seibel's book was a best seller on Amazon, and both
O'Reilly and No Starch Press have new Common Lisp books coming out
early 2010). Even C seems like it's holding its own. Whatever your
problem is, you can find a technology to write an answer, and you
don't need either Java or C#.

But I'm wondering (inquiring minds want to know) -- What's the feeling
in the Perl community with respect to the competition of Java and C#?
Should Java prevail over C#? Or should C# dominate Java? Or does the
community really care one way or another? Which is better for Perl,
and which is worse?

dice.com has 9,800 jobs posted with 'Java' as a key word, and 4,700
with 'C#' as a key word, for whatever that's worth.

CC.

 

[ccc31807]

In what way is this question remotely on topic?

According to the posting guidelines, c.l.p.m. exists for discussing
Perl related issues. The competition between Java and .NET may or may
not impact the Perl community, but it will impact the general
environment. Certainly, the question of the effect (and outcome) of
competition between Java and C# on the Perl community is fair game for
discussion.

No, it's not a technical issue, but I would say that it's a meta-issue
and therefore still an issue.

Thanks, CC.

 

[Jürgen Exner]

But I'm wondering (inquiring minds want to know) -- What's the feeling
in the Perl community with respect to the competition of Java and C#?
Should Java prevail over C#? Or should C# dominate Java?

Isn't that obvious? Of course Perl should prevail, what else?

jue

 

[smallpond]

My take FWIW is that we are
experiencing a great explosion of languages and technologies:

Your premise is wrong. There has always been an explosion of
languages. Compare APL, SAIL, Lisp, Smalltalk and BLISS for a
range of old languages which are groundbreakingly different.
By comparison, perl is indistinguishable from python.

(You wanted a troll, I'll give you a troll!).

If anything, the range of choices has narrowed in recent years.
Some of the languages that you mention are just new syntax with
no real new capabilities at all.

dice.com has 9,800 jobs posted with 'Java' as a key word, and 4,700
with 'C#' as a key word, for whatever that's worth.

It means there are a lot of buggy Java and C# programs waiting to
be fixed?

 

[ccc31807]

Your premise is wrong. There has always been an explosion of
languages.  Compare APL, SAIL, Lisp, Smalltalk and BLISS for a
range of old languages which are groundbreakingly different.
By comparison, perl is indistinguishable from python.

My personal experience does not go back but about ten years, so I
can't witness from personal experience, but ISTM that we are seeing a
great explosion in /scripting/ technologies (someone told me I omitted
JavaScript, Ajax, and ActionScript-Flex). I would agree that these has
always been a number of languages, but can you honestly say that that
there has ever been this number of /scripting/ languages that people
are using? I don't think that this is a revival of /scripting/
languages so much as a new-vival.

(You wanted a troll, I'll give you a troll!).

I did a project in Python about eight years ago, which is still
running and which I revisit from time to time. Whether or not Python
and Perl are indistinguishable depends on what you are distinguishing.

It means there are a lot of buggy Java and C# programs waiting to
be fixed?

Yes, but there are a lot of buggy Perl/Python/whatever programs
waiting to be fixed as well.

Did you read the article in the Register that I linked to? If so, from
a Perl programmer's perspective, what do you think of the premise, and
how do you think it will impact Perl in the next decade?

Thanks, CC.

 

[Charlton Wilbur]

cc> But I'm wondering (inquiring minds want to know) -- What's the
cc> feeling in the Perl community with respect to the competition of
cc> Java and C#? Should Java prevail over C#? Or should C# dominate
cc> Java? Or does the community really care one way or another?
cc> Which is better for Perl, and which is worse?

I think the single bit of idiocy that I'm most tired of is the notion
that everything is a zero-sum game -- that for one thing to win, another
thing must fail. And nowhere is this idiocy more apparent than in
language advocacy.

Charlton

 

[ccc31807]

I think the single bit of idiocy that I'm most tired of is the notion
that everything is a zero-sum game -- that for one thing to win, another
thing must fail.  And nowhere is this idiocy more apparent than in
language advocacy.

I agree, mostly.

But note ... Microsoft seems to be embracing all different sorts of
communities:
* bit twiddlers with C++/CLI (which I have had recent experience with
and which I think MS did a great job with)
* the OO crowd with C#
* functional programmers with F#
* the web developers with ASP.NET
* even hackers with PowerShell

There's also such a thing as a critical mass, when at a particular
size a technology becomes unstoppable. There's also such a thing as
synergy, with the whole of something being greater than the parts,
meaning the .NET framework.

I have a friend who is convinced that in ten years we all will have
adopted the MS .NET framework and will be loving it, and Perl will
just wither away. This is actually the reason I posted this thread.

This is a zero sum game in respect of Big Companies with lots of
hiring power who dictate that all will use Language X, to the
exclusion of everything else -- which is not to say that Big Companies
won't go the way of Big Reptiles, while the little, furry, warm
blooded creatures will not only survive but flourish.

CC.

 

[Randal L. Schwartz]

ccc31807> dice.com has 9,800 jobs posted with 'Java' as a key word,

And how many of those are actually clueless headhunters posting for JavaScript
positions, not realizing that Java has nothing to do with JavaScript?

 

[ccc31807]

And how many of those are actually clueless headhunters posting for JavaScript
positions, not realizing that Java has nothing to do with JavaScript?

Probably ninety percent.

Yeah, it's a lousy metric, but it's quick and simple and at least
grossly indicative.

CC.

 

[Martijn Lievaart]

Your premise is wrong. There has always been an explosion of languages.
Compare APL, SAIL, Lisp, Smalltalk and BLISS for a range of old
languages which are groundbreakingly different. By comparison, perl is
indistinguishable from python.

You forgot Prolog, Mouse and Forth.

M4

 

[Charlton Wilbur]

cc> I have a friend who is convinced that in ten years we all will
cc> have adopted the MS .NET framework and will be loving it, and
cc> Perl will just wither away. This is actually the reason I posted
cc> this thread.

And I'm sure that someone in this newsgroup has a friend that is
convinced that the world will end in 2012. Many people belive many
idiotic things, and their belief is not sufficient to make things true.

cc> This is a zero sum game in respect of Big Companies with lots of
cc> hiring power who dictate that all will use Language X, to the
cc> exclusion of everything else -- which is not to say that Big
cc> Companies won't go the way of Big Reptiles, while the little,
cc> furry, warm blooded creatures will not only survive but
cc> flourish.

Except that there are lots of Big Companies, and the pool of programmers
is growing.

Charlton

 

[ccc31807]

And I'm sure that someone in this newsgroup has a friend that is
convinced that the world will end in 2012.  Many people belive many
idiotic things, and their belief is not sufficient to make things true.

But how many of them can make a good, cogent, reasoned argument and
cite actual evidence? There's a big difference between belief based on
wishful thinking or superstition, and a believe based on facts and
logic.

Except that there are lots of Big Companies, and the pool of programmers
is growing.

In China and India? Still, big companies were once small companies.
Speaking of which, I seem to recall that Yahoo about ten years ago
migrated a large body of code from Perl to Java, and BlackBoard is now
in the process of replacing a bunch of Perl code with Java. Is there
some sort of law that says that small companies use stuff that gets
things going quickly (e.g., Perl) and when they grow the migrate to
stuff that everyone else uses (e.g., Java)?

I'm sure that MS would like to monopolize programming technologies in
the same way that it does productivity software or PC operating
systems.

CC

 

[smallpond]

You forgot Prolog, Mouse and Forth.

M4

I never learned Forth (or Mouse), but I wrote some code in Postscript.
There aren't many new stack-based languages, are there?

 

[sreservoir]

s/best (.*hand)/$1 least badly, given the political and other constraints
they are obliged to work with/

It's possible to write useful programs in languages as unpleasant as VBA
or TeX, and a decent programmer should find having to do so 'annoying'
rather than 'crippling'.

It's a sad day when TeX is used to program.

 

[ccc31807]

About the same number that can make such an argument in support of their
language evangelism. Each is based on about the same quality "evidence."

True, but there's a world of difference between an argument based on
logic and some sort of evidence that can at least pass for empirical,
and an argument based on illogic and made up 'facts'.

Real programmers learn and use whatever tools best fit the task at hand.
Wannabees try to force every task to fit their favorite language, and
worry about its popularity, because they're incapable of learning more
than one.

I haven't personally had this experience, but I've known developers
who were shoehorned into language X simply because the business
manager could read X and nothing else, and I've known business
managers who migrated to a particular framework because they wanted
everything written using the same thing. One was a personal friend who
implemented VB department wide.

I interview for jobs occasionally, and it's typical to be told, "If
you work here, you will use X." Would I not be a 'real programmer' if
I accepted a position under these conditions and wrote only in X?

CC.

 

[ccc31807]

There is no explosion in scripting languages,

For another pretty gross metric, check out the books published for the
different technologies. Maybe 'explosion' isn't exactly right, but the
developing world (no pun intended) is certainly becoming Balkanized.
Read the job announcements -- most read like they were tailor made for
one particular individual with somewhat idiosyncratic experience.

The bottom line is your Java/C# 'debate' is a non-debate.

Maybe, maybe not. If you read the article I linked to, and read the
blog entries (I believe this may have been on slashdot) you will see
that others don't agree with you.

I think Java is a pretty good technology, although I don't use it a
lot. I'm also impressed by .NET, particularly C++/CLR. You might say
that it's a non-debate, but you can't say that it isn't a ferocious
competition, with MS out to slay Java, and Java out to maintain its
dominance. Will this affect Perl? And if so, how?

CC.

 

[John Bokma]

But note ... Microsoft seems to be embracing all different sorts of
communities:
* bit twiddlers with C++/CLI (which I have had recent experience with
and which I think MS did a great job with)
* the OO crowd with C#
* functional programmers with F#
* the web developers with ASP.NET
* even hackers with PowerShell

* "scripters" with IronPython

I have a friend who is convinced that in ten years we all will have
adopted the MS .NET framework and will be loving it, and Perl will
just wither away. This is actually the reason I posted this thread.

Your friend sounds young, otherwise he would have made the same mistake
back in the 90's regarding Java, and learned from it ;-)

 

[John Bokma]

There are several newish dialects of Forth. OpenFirmware (as used in
some Apple and Sun machines) is Forth-based, as is FreeBSD's BTX
bootloader.

colorForth by the father of Forth.

 

[Charlton Wilbur]

cc> True, but there's a world of difference between an argument
cc> based on logic and some sort of evidence that can at least pass
cc> for empirical, and an argument based on illogic and made up
cc> 'facts'.

Yes, and language and platform advocacy, especially the sort that
results in conclusions like, "we'll all be using .NET exclusively by
2020," is almost entirely the latter.

Charlton

 

[John Bokma]

Like I said - real programmers will learn and use whatever is required.
Sometimes those requirements are driven by technical constraints; more
often, it's the result of a boss saying "use X."

The wannabe programmer would refuse that job on the basis that he's a
"Y programmer" and won't use anything else. Or, given the current state
of the economy, he'd take the job and then whine and moan endlessly
about how much X sucks.

I don't understand how someone who wants to program Y and detests X so
much shows up on a job interview for X.

Anyway, I wouldn't take a job that requires me to program in PHP
(anymore). I do detest that language, and no, I am not a wannabe
programmer and no I don't have a problem with learning new languages.

Programming must be fun.