Menu

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

Hi,
I am wondering whether I had better create a simpler menu and a site map
than the one which I designed on the page
https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/valkommen.php
to let users navigate in a easier way.
Therefore I am looking for tips about how to create a site map in the best
way.

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

"Luigi Donatello Asero" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet

I am wondering whether I had better create a simpler menu than the one
which I designed on the page
https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/valkommen.php
and a site map
to let users navigate in a easier way.
Therefore I am looking for tips about how to create a site map in the best
way.

 

[Toby Inkster]

https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/valkommen.php

I think, and have always thought, that your site is ridiculously confusing.

* There is no consistancy of navigation, or even of page "shape".

* For many pages you offer identical "php" and "html" versions for
no apparent reason. for many pages you offer identical "http" and
"https" versions for no apparent reason.

* Many pages are written the cross between multiple languages.
e.g. http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/gigi (87kbytes)
Clicking on links in one language can take you to pages written
in another. This may be acceptable to you as a polyglot, but
it won't be to your customers.

* It has no overall message and could do with being split into three
sites:
- one offering translation services
- one offering holiday/accomodation services
- one selling shoes/trinkets/furniture/etc

* The search is over-complicated. People want a single text entry
and a single button. Nothing more. Look at Google. *NOBODY* wants
to search case-sensitively. *NOBODY*.

* There are tonnes of links that DON'T GO ANYWHERE or go somewhere
unexpected.

You constantly ask for help with minor details, when what your site really
needs is TO BE TOTALLY RETHOUGHT AND REBUILT FROM THE GROUND UP!

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

I think, and have always thought, that your site is ridiculously

confusing.

Thank you for your answer.

* There is no consistancy of navigation, or even of page "shape".

There are different models of navigation in the same site because I changed
them while building it.

* For many pages you offer identical "php" and "html" versions for
no apparent reason. for many pages you offer identical "http" and
"https" versions for no apparent reason.

There is a reason for that even you did not see it.

* Many pages are written the cross between multiple languages.
e.g. http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/gigi (87kbytes)
Clicking on links in one language can take you to pages written
in another. This may be acceptable to you as a polyglot, but
it won't be to your customers.

In some cases it may be a typing mistake by saving but in other cases it is
wanted.
For example some Swedish landlords/landladies may want to find more easily
that there is a page about Sweden in Italian, so it is easier for them to
follow a link from a Swedish version to the italian page.

* It has no overall message and could do with being split into three
sites:
- one offering translation services
- one offering holiday/accomodation services
- one selling shoes/trinkets/furniture/etc

This alternative would cost much more money to me, especially when I want to
have a https connection.

* The search is over-complicated. People want a single text entry
and a single button. Nothing more. Look at Google. *NOBODY* wants
to search case-sensitively. *NOBODY*.

* There are tonnes of links that DON'T GO ANYWHERE or go somewhere
unexpected.

These are occasional and not structural mistakes.

You constantly ask for help with minor details, when what your site really
needs is TO BE TOTALLY RETHOUGHT AND REBUILT FROM THE GROUND UP!

No, we just have different opinions about it. Actually, it was other kind of
suggestions which I was looking for.

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

No problem.

 

[Hywel Jenkins]

This alternative would cost much more money to me, especially when I want to
have a https connection.

Why do you want HTTPS? None of the content I've seen benefits from the
use of SSL.

 

[Oli Filth]

Hywel Jenkins said the following on 05/06/2005 13:57:

Why do you want HTTPS? None of the content I've seen benefits from the
use of SSL.

Because Luigi likes to reinvent the wheel, and prefers to waste time
offering pointless things like a choice between HTTP and HTTPS, and PHP
and HTML versions, and make visited links disappear (but only for 15
minutes), rather than making his page user-friendly or aesthetically
pleasing, or structured. (IMHO)

To Luigi:

Toby is right when he says that you need to re-design your site from
scratch (if you're serious about your business). Your site looks very
much the same as it did in November, i.e. a sprawling mess. You've been
trying to juggle HTTPS and HTTP versions, PHP and HTML versions, and a
multitude of languages, and it has got you nowhere.

There is *absolutely* *no* reason for offering both an HTML and a PHP
version, and no sensible reason for offering both an HTTP and HTTPS
version. Stop worrying about pointless details like these, and
concentrate on making your site user-friendly and pleasant to look at.

In its present state, I seriously doubt that your website will attract
any customers. If I were a potential customer, I would turn away as soon
as I got to your home page. No customer is going to be impressed by the
fact that your site is "Valid HTML 4.01 strict!" and "Valid CSS!", or
having a choice between HTTPS and HTTP, and PHP or HTML. *Especially*
when the pages look so disorganised and visually unappealing (e.g.
https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/adsl.html. This is hideous).

If you're serious about your business, then hire a professional to
re-design the HTML/CSS front-end and/or the PHP back-end. It might cost
you, but you'll have a usable website at the end of it.

The longer you go on, adding bits here and there, and hacking away to
make it work, the more difficult it will be to maintain and keep consistent.

For example, you're offering the same pages in 10 languages, but each
version of each page is an entirely separate static HTML file. This
means that every time you want to make one small change to the design of
a page, you'll have to do it 10 times. If you started again, using a
PHP-driven template system, you'd only have to make the changes once,
saving you a huge amount of time, and ensuring that your site stays
consistent.

Other benefits would be a consistent page stucture and navigation
structure, which would be easier to maintain (you'd only have to add new
navigation items once, and *all* of your pages throughout the site would
instantly change).

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

Hywel Jenkins said the following on 05/06/2005 13:57:

Because Luigi likes to reinvent the wheel, and prefers to waste time
offering pointless things like a choice between HTTP and HTTPS, and PHP
and HTML versions, and make visited links disappear (but only for 15
minutes), rather than making his page user-friendly or aesthetically
pleasing, or structured. (IMHO)

To Luigi:

Toby is right when he says that you need to re-design your site from
scratch (if you're serious about your business). Your site looks very
much the same as it did in November, i.e. a sprawling mess. You've been
trying to juggle HTTPS and HTTP versions, PHP and HTML versions, and a
multitude of languages, and it has got you nowhere.

There is *absolutely* *no* reason for offering both an HTML and a PHP
version, and no sensible reason for offering both an HTTP and HTTPS
version. Stop worrying about pointless details like these, and
concentrate on making your site user-friendly and pleasant to look at.

In its present state, I seriously doubt that your website will attract
any customers. If I were a potential customer, I would turn away as soon
as I got to your home page. No customer is going to be impressed by the
fact that your site is "Valid HTML 4.01 strict!" and "Valid CSS!", or
having a choice between HTTPS and HTTP, and PHP or HTML. *Especially*
when the pages look so disorganised and visually unappealing (e.g.
https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/adsl.html. This is hideous).

If you're serious about your business, then hire a professional to
re-design the HTML/CSS front-end and/or the PHP back-end. It might cost
you, but you'll have a usable website at the end of it.

The longer you go on, adding bits here and there, and hacking away to
make it work, the more difficult it will be to maintain and keep consistent.

For example, you're offering the same pages in 10 languages, but each
version of each page is an entirely separate static HTML file. This
means that every time you want to make one small change to the design of
a page, you'll have to do it 10 times. If you started again, using a
PHP-driven template system, you'd only have to make the changes once,
saving you a huge amount of time, and ensuring that your site stays
consistent.

Other benefits would be a consistent page stucture and navigation
structure, which would be easier to maintain (you'd only have to add new
navigation items once, and *all* of your pages throughout the site would
instantly change).

Oli,
we have different opinions and I have already explained it.
If you find it so difficult to accept it, please do not answer my posts.

 

[Oli Filth]

Luigi Donatello Asero said the following on 05/06/2005 17:57:

"Oli Filth" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet

Oli,
we have different opinions and I have already explained it.

You're right, it is my opinion. But my post also contained practical advice.

You don't seem to be very good at recognising good advice from people
who may have had more experience than you and know what they're talking
about. I'm not necessarily including myself here, I've never designed a
commercial website! But I'm an engineer; I know a bad system design when
I see one. Yours is bad.

It's all very well saying "this is my opinion" and "I can design my site
my way" if it pays off (i.e. if you end up with something that works),
but the fact is that your site has not progressed at all in the last 6
months and is still ugly and unusable (if you can find anyone here that
disagrees I'll be very surprised.) This fact alone should be telling you
that maybe it's time to heed some advice and re-plan your site's structure.

If you're not prepared to learn, then your website will probably always
be the mess that it is now, but I wish you luck anyway!

If you find it so difficult to accept it, please do not answer my posts.

This is a newsgroup. As long as I'm on topic and not spamming, there's
no reason why I shouldn't answer your posts... If you can't tolerate
criticism of your site, then don't continuously post links to your site
on a newsgroup!

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

Luigi Donatello Asero said the following on 05/06/2005 17:57:


This is a newsgroup. As long as I'm on topic and not spamming, there's
no reason why I shouldn't answer your posts... If you can't tolerate
criticism of your site, then don't continuously post links to your site
on a newsgroup!

There is a difference between answering a question specifically and to
repeat the same opinion all time long when you should already know that I do
not share it.
Of course you may think that my website is the worse on the internet. But I
do not need share your opinion.

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

There is a difference between answering a question specifically and to
repeat the same opinion all the time long when you should already know that
I do
not share it.
Of course you may think that my website is the worst on the internet. But
I
do not need share your opinion.
Mostly we do not share our opinion about a very important thing.
The customer wants to be satisfied with the service or the product he or she
buys.
So, why should I buy the service of a webdesigner if I notice that he or
she would be likely to do a website the way I would not want to?

 

[Oli Filth]

Luigi Donatello Asero said the following on 05/06/2005 18:49:

There is a difference between answering a question specifically and to
repeat the same opinion all the time long when you should already know that
I do not share it.

Maybe you need to be reminded that *your* opinion is not getting you
very far...

The customer wants to be satisfied with the service or the product he or she
buys.
So, why should I buy the service of a webdesigner if I notice that he or
she would be likely to do a website the way I would not want to?

Because they'll do a better job of it than you. If I was running a
business and I had a choice between:

(A) paying a web designer to make a website that will work, but
might not be quite how I like it

OR
(B) not having a working website

I would choose (A). And we've already established that the "way that you
want" your site to be is completely different to how 95% of potential
customers would want a site to be. Surely their opinion is more
important than yours? (assuming you want to sell anything).

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

Luigi Donatello Asero said the following on 05/06/2005 18:49:

Maybe you need to be reminded that *your* opinion is not getting you
very far...


Because they'll do a better job of it than you. If I was running a
business and I had a choice between:

(A) paying a web designer to make a website that will work, but
might not be quite how I like it

OR
(B) not having a working website

I would choose (A). And we've already established that the "way that you
want" your site to be is completely different to how 95% of potential
customers would want a site to be. Surely their opinion is more
important than yours? (assuming you want to sell anything).

Oli,
I am going to
a) not answer your posts any more in a short time
or
b) filter your posts. I hope that you will not change your adress to make it
more difficult for me to filter you.

 

[Oli Filth]

Luigi Donatello Asero said the following on 05/06/2005 19:07:

Oli,
I am going to
a) not answer your posts any more in a short time
or
b) filter your posts. I hope that you will not change your adress to make it
more difficult for me to filter you.

Oh no! How will I cope?!

You just asked a question ("why should I buy the service of a
webdesigner if ... a website the way I would not want to?"); I answered
it. If you can't cope with that system (question-answer), then maybe you
should look for help elsewhere.

Don't worry, I have no intention of changing my e-mail address!!

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

Luigi Donatello Asero said the following on 05/06/2005 19:07:
it. If you can't cope with that system (question-answer), then maybe you
should look for help elsewhere.

1) I do not answer all the questions ( I get very many on different
subjects)
I usually answer the ones which are more interesting in my mind or at
least, usually, first, those ones, then, perhaps, the others.

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

"Oli Filth" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
news:Q7Hoe.8225$%[email protected]...

And by the way, let me know whether you write on this NG only to sell your
services or also to discuss about webdesign...
By discussing, I mean open discussions and not discussions of the kind, "I
am right and you are wrong about something" but of the kind "my opinion is
this and what is yours?"

 

[Oli Filth]

Luigi Donatello Asero said the following on 05/06/2005 19:25:

And by the way, let me know whether you write on this NG only to sell your
services

I don't have any services to sell!

By discussing, I mean open discussions and not discussions of the kind, "I
am right and you are wrong about something" but of the kind "my opinion is
this and what is yours?"

If someone says something is known to be complete nonsense, then I will
happily state (or imply) that "I am right and you are wrong".

I admit, I didn't put "My opinion is ..." at the beginning of each
sentence which contained my opinion. I would have thought that it would
be obvious.

If you would like me to go through my posts, and pick out which bits
were my opinion and which bits were just plain fact, then I will happily
do so.

 

[Hywel Jenkins]

Oli,
we have different opinions and I have already explained it.
If you find it so difficult to accept it, please do not answer my posts.

You *must* start listening to people, Luigi. I'm sure your business
acument and capability in your field is perfectly suited to your
business, but your web development skills are seriously lacking. You
*must* get professional help on it. OK, employing a pro. to do it will
cost a few Euro, but how much is your business worth to you? If all
it's worth is the web site you've got at the moment, it can't be worth
much.

If "this page is not available yet" why is there a link to it? Where's
the consistent, familiar navigation? Where's the style? Where's the
design? Where's the standard layout?

The site you've got has grown far to fast with no consideration for
design or usability. If you did have both points as considerations at
the start of your project, it's all been negated due to the cataclysmic
expansion of the site.

Whenever you ask a question, you get plenty of answer from professional
developers and enthusiastic, knowledgable amateurs, but you never
listen. You just bimble along in Luigiland, convinced that what you
have is worth using. What you have at the moment is, to be frank,
awful.

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

Whenever you ask a question, you get plenty of answer from professional
developers and enthusiastic, knowledgable amateurs, but you never
listen. You just bimble along in Luigiland, convinced that what you
have is worth using. What you have at the moment is, to be frank,
awful.

I get many answers ( perhaps more) in other Newsgroups.
It is ok for me that you think that the website is awful.
It is your opinion and I respect it.
But I have mine.

 

[dorayme]

*Especially*
when the pages look so disorganised and visually unappealing (e.g.
https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/adsl.html. This is hideous).

Given so many pics loading on this page, and it being a truly unattractive
layout as Oli says, it is as if there is a devil at work to make everything
as bad as possible: the shoes are very fuzzy and the text in the pics of
shoes is unreadable...

dorayme

 

[dorayme]

Because they'll do a better job of it than you. If I was running a
business and I had a choice between:

(A) paying a web designer to make a website that will work, but
might not be quite how I like it

OR
(B) not having a working website

I would choose (A). And we've already established that the "way that you
want" your site to be is completely different to how 95% of potential
customers would want a site to be. Surely their opinion is more
important than yours? (assuming you want to sell anything).

I recall making a website for one group once and having a lot of trouble
from one of the partners from the customer group who was trying to
micromanage things. It was getting out of hand, time pressures and other
things. He did not like the look! He hated it and wanted fancy this and
fancy that instead of the very simple design. But he admitted in the end
when I resisted a lot that he could live with it because "it was easy to
operate and had everything in a simple manner". I took that as a compliment
but it was not quite meant that way...

I resisted because I did not trust his instincts and knew the group would
not fully understand the work that goes into even the simplest looking style
and would be unlikely to want to pay for a redesign.

The point is this: sometimes it is better for a customer to trust the
instincts of others. I agree that you need to have some respect, you need to
be able to see a bit of class where it exists - even if you are not ecstatic
over the product. Can the OP recognise class? Sorry to say this but his
https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/adsl.html is not encouraging evidence.

dorayme