MSDN Universal subscription changes (level and pricing)

[news.microsoft.com]

To Microsoft and fellow MSDN Universal subscribers...


Regarding new MSDN Universal (I mean Premier) price and level changes:

1) Way too expensive for the small and medium developer Universal subscriber
(and some large ones as well). $10,000 - $15,000 per user?!? Forget it!

2) Do you (MS) honestly believe that the market you are targeting will just
buy this product on good faith? Without our recommendations? Think about
it!

3) How do we write add-ins for Team Suite (VSTS or Team Foundation Server
(TFS)) if we don't have the products?

4) How do we learn how to use Team System for those times we do work in
teams?

5) MS trusts us with developer licenses for SQL, Exchange, etc, but not Team
System or TFS? Just give us a single user developer license for VSTS & TFS.

6) Leaves a really foul taste in our mouths about the meaning of
"Universal". Bait-and Switch! Feels like a major betrayal.

7) Don't box us into a specific "Role". Most of us wear many hats.

8) Why punish developers for supporting and promoting MS all these many
years? What the hell?

Bottom line...The product will not sale without our help. Our help can only
be provided if we have ACCESS to the full product.

Everyone, please look at all of the comments on the MS feedback site (Url
below). Many developers (large and small) have chimed in on this. We are
all trying to help MS keep from making one of the biggest mistakes they've
ever made. We need everyone's help on this. I have started to get some
feedback from MS, so keep up the pressure. I've also been contacted by some
developer website editors wanting to run articles about this issue. MS
better wake up soon. They could get some really bad press on this. They
will lose a lot of developer support and confidence if they do not rectify
this issue soon.

MS Feedback link on this issue:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produ...edbackId=2b58b8db-5bba-4dfc-be10-78ad43686b3b

GClark

 

[Juan T. Llibre]

I hope you didn't miss any newsgroups that
you intended to get your message... ;-)

We're mostly developers, your peers, in these newsgroups,
and there's nothing we can do about what you expound on.

Please post your comments about the pricing for MSDN Premier,
VSTS, and anything else relating to Visual Studio at :

http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/default.aspx

If you want to have your points of view heard by the
Microsoft personnel which works on those matters,
that's the best place to post your comments.

 

[news.microsoft.com]

Just trying to get the word out to as many developers as possible...I
figured a cross-post would be okay in this situation.

If I'm wrong, I apologize.


GClark

 

[news.microsoft.com]

Juan,
I also disagree with your assesment that there is nothing *we* developers
can do about it. The more MS hears feedback from us the better chance we
all have of them re-evaluating there position regarding the MSDN Universal
issue.

Most of us don't check the "microsoft.public.msdn.general" newsgroup. My
target audience for the post was *as many developers as possible*, hence the
cross-post to the main developer newsgroups.

FYI, I have also contacted MS (feedback site and email) and have made some
progress. Alec Cooper, aka "lefty", VSTS Business Manager, is currently
tyring to get TFS included in Universal (some sort of single-user developer
license) because of all the feedback. However, it's not for certain yet and
I'm still fighting for the full Team Suite to be included. We could use as
much help as possible. Alec could use as much help as possible to make the
argument on our behalf. Their's power in numbers.

I urge all concerned to submit comments in the newsgroups, the feedback
site, and direct emailing to MS contacts.

Team System MSDN pricing feedback comments:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produ...edbackId=2b58b8db-5bba-4dfc-be10-78ad43686b3b


GClark

- Can a small group of dedicated people with a good idea change the world?
It's the only thing that ever has!

 

[Juan T. Llibre]

<sigh>

It's not we can't do anything.
It's that these newsgroups are not where to do it.

These are peer-to-peer newsgroups dedicated to
programmers helping other programmers in the
technical aspects of what we love to do : program.

Anything else is pretty much spam.

Please take your issues to the right forum for them :

http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/default.aspx

Your points of views will be heard by the right people there.

re:

I urge all concerned to submit comments in the newsgroups

I urge anybody reading this *not* to do that.

Please, take your observations on MSDN Subscription pricing
and MSDN to a more appropiate forum, like the one in the link above.

 

[news.microsoft.com]

<sigh>
<scratch>
<fart>
<grin>

I AM TRYING TO HELP OTHER PROGRAMMERS!!!

Exactly which section over there in the *forums* is the appropriate place to
discuss this matter. I just spent the past half hour looking for the right
spot. I don't see it. There is no MSDN Subscription forum that I saw. I
see a place for VSTS posts, but there's only a couple of posts. There's
barely anything happening in those forums. I'm just not as confident as you
that I would accomplish what I was setting out to do via the forums. I'll
take your word for it that it's the best place, but I just don't see the
traffic over there.

I also disagree that this is spam. This is very important to a lot of us.
These newsgroups are the best place to reach the developers.

As far as reaching MS, the feedback site is the only place I've seen any
relavant posts or responses from MS.
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produ...edbackId=2b58b8db-5bba-4dfc-be10-78ad43686b3b

I guess I'll just go bury my head in the sand. You obviously disagree with
my opinion on this and don't want me to spread the word.

I'm not trying to bash MS. If you think about it, I'm actually trying to
help them.

GClark
<fart again>

 

[Jim Hubbard]

<sigh>
<scratch>
<fart>
<grin>

I AM TRYING TO HELP OTHER PROGRAMMERS!!!

Well.....this post will certainly be shot at as SPAM.....but, when has that
ever stopped me from trying to help others too?

(PLEASE NOTE THAT THE CURRENT VERSION OF THE SOFTWARE MENTIONED IN THIS POST
IS FREE FOR FORMER CLASSIC VB PROGRAMMERS, AND, AS OVER 50% OF ALL
DEVELOPERS USE VISUAL BASIC AT THEIR JOBS, THIS POSTING IS VALID TO THE
READERS OF THESE NEWSGROUPS.)

I have made no attempts to hide my displeasure at the way Microsoft has
treated the VB6 developers - as you will notice in the Microsoft.public.vb
newsgroup postings.

And, with the current pricing structure of MSDN and rising costs of
Microsoft's desktop software, I truly believe we need a valid alternative to
Microsoft developer tools. Currently, I am looking into REALbasic
(www.REALbasic.com) as just such an alternative.

Now, REALbasic still has some growing to do. Don't expect it to be anything
except REALbasic.

If you are a classic Visual Basic developer (pre-VB.Net), you will find the
interface and syntax very familiar. You will be able to upgrade your VB6
apps better than Microsoft's transition tool to VB.Net. And, the coming
2005 interface (60 days until release) has a much enhanced UI (screenshots
at http://www.realsoftware.com/demo15/).

REALbasic 5.5 is even FREE to former Visual Basic developers and they will
receive a discount on REALbasic 2005 when it gets released in 60 days (or
less). Just sign up here -
http://www.realsoftware.com/realbasic/vb6/index.php - BEFORE APRIL 15, 2005.

Although those reasons are all good enough to at least take a look at
REALbasic, the true value of REALbasic, for developers AND end users, is
freedom of choice with the OS. REALbasic applications are truly
cross-platform and will run on MAC, Linux or Windows machines. This means
that, as prices continue to climb for Microsoft MSDN subscriptions (almost
$10,000 for the top MSDN subscription) Microsoft OSs and Microsoft software
(like $499 for Office 2003 Pro) you and your customers have the option of
choosing a less expensive OS like MAC, a supported (but way less expensive
than XP) Linux OS like Novell's Linux desktop, Red Hat Workstation or even a
FREE OS like one of the hundreds of free Linux distros.

Microsoft has shown that they no longer value (or even listen to) their
customers. They will be the next IBM.....decimating the empire that they
have built by ignoring customer needs and pricing themselves out of Windows
development.

Make no mistake about it, Microsoft IS pricing themselves out of the
software market by pricing the small and mid-sized business out of Windows
development.

Microsoft seems to be forgetting that the ability for small and mid-sized
shops to do their own development is a large part of what has made Microsoft
the largest software company in the world. Its what drew small companies to
Windows - the ability to develop their own relatively inexpensive software
solutions in-house. Not to mention the millions of developers that used
Windows tools to develop and sell their own software.

And, while there are certainly alternatives other than REALbasic (Mono +
Linux, C++ + MAC, Java, Borland's Delphi, etc.) None of them offer the
platform dependence that REALbasic does........nope, not even JAVA.

I humbly suggest you take a look at REALbasic. Even if you don't choose it
as your development platform, at least you know what's out there and the
possibilities for true cross-platform development.

Whatever development platform you choose, may I suggest that it be
cross-platform. Not because Microsoft is big and should be crushed. I'm
not now (nor have ever been) anti-Microsoft. But, I am pro-me and pro-my
customers.

Being pro-me and pro-my customers, I have to make hard decisions to protect
them and me from future harm. One of those decisions is the decision to
begin developing cross-platform solutions for my customer base, so that they
have the freedom to move to a more-affordable OS and more affordable
development platform for their company's specific needs.

For most small businesses, not being on a Microsoft OS is not a problem.
Most, if not all of the software they write is for internal use. So, their
OS and desktop software decisions can be more financially driven. This
means that using Linux (even the MAC OS is cheaper than XP) for a desktop
solution in many small and mid-sized businesses is an easy call.

Their daily task is not to use Microsoft products.....it's to get business
done in a manner that saves time and money while not sacrificing quality.
Microsoft would do well to understand that.

I believe that responsible developers and ISVs owe it to their customers to
give themselves and their customers the option of OS independence. Giving
REALbasic a look might help you towards that goal.

If you know of other options, I would love to check them out as possible
alternatives. Please post them here.

Jim Hubbard

(I will not respond to flames.....although serious questions or debate is
welcomed.)

 

[Guest]

Just getting used to this message board and I fear MS would soon start
charging to be a member of this board...

eeeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkkkkk

 

[David Alger]

I hope you didn't miss any newsgroups that
you intended to get your message... ;-)

We're mostly developers, your peers, in these newsgroups,
and there's nothing we can do about what you expound on.

Except, presumabley, follow the link given and participate in the process
there?

The email was directed at peers, Microsoft customers, to encourage them to
make their views felt on this issue. I think the level of feeling on this
issue is sufficient justification for such a call.

In other words: just 'cos a post complains about something and is sent to a
wide audience, don't make it spam.

 

[Juan T. Llibre]

Cross-posted newsgroups clipped from this reply.

re:

In other words: just 'cos a post complains about something and is sent to
a wide audience, don't make it spam.

You're right. It makes it *cross-posted* spam.

 

[Julie]

Isn't it obvious yet that MS doesn't care about the small fish any more?
Granted, back in the days of Win 3.1, we are what made MS what it is by
actually pushing the OS in our places of work, but that means little now.

Just look at what MS targets -- they are after the big fish, and the rest of us
are just road apples.

 

[Juan T. Llibre]

re:

Just look at what MS targets -- they are after the big fish, and the rest
of us are just road apples.

I don't know what the complaint is, Julie,
particularly regarding "big fish" as compared to "road apples".

Microsoft is putting out a brand new product line
( the Express products ) for entry-level developers.

Those will be just $49 each, in a wide variety of flavors :
VB.NET Express, Visual C Express, Visual C++ Express,
Visual J# Express and Visual Web Developer Express.

Then, if you need more power, you can use
VS.NET Standard, which will run $299.

If you need even more power, you can get
VS.NET Professional, at $799 or $549 upgrade.

Only if you need VSTS, do you get into the high-price range.

See http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2005/mar05/03-21VS2005PR.asp

Even so, if you have MSDN, you get a free upgrade
to MSDN Premium, which gets you VSTS fairly cheaply.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/howtobuy/vs2005/

Now, if the issue is that individual developers want to get
VSTS at a very low price, I don't think that's going to happen.

As with everything in life, you get what you pay for.

 

[news.microsoft.com]

You only get one "role" upgrade to Team System for Universal Subcribers.
You do not get Team Server either.
MSDN Universal is changing it's definition. It's not right. They're
pulling the rug out from underneath us.

What happens if I want to Test my apps, or maybe even Architect them, and
not just be a Developer. I have to buy the whole damn suite plus the server
for $15,000. It ain't right.

Look at the feedback site, there are many other issues with this. It's all
there for you to read. I'm too tired to deal with you right now.
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produ...edbackId=2b58b8db-5bba-4dfc-be10-78ad43686b3b

 

[Juan T. Llibre]

re:

I'm too tired to deal with you right now.

Give it, and yourself, a rest if you're "too tired".

I think you should open a website, or start a blog,
or do anything you want...on your own dime.

You'd be far more credible that way.

 

[news.microsoft.com]

You just have to get the last word, don't you.

I meant that you tire me. You obviously can't comprehend what I (and
others) are saying to you. Why is it that the only ones that can't
understand the points we are making the so-called MVP's. I thought MVP's
were independent of Microsoft. Is that not the case?

"On my own dime..", What the hell do you mean by that? Is there some sort
of fee for these newsgroups now? I wouldn't be surprised.

GClark

 

[Juan T. Llibre]

What doesn't surprise me is your bickering.
It's so typical of trolls.

 

[Kevin Spencer]

MSDN Universal is changing it's definition. It's not right. They're

pulling the rug out from underneath us.

While I can certainly understand your frustration, I feel compelled to
remind you that pricing is not a matter of "right" or "wrong." It's called
"supply and demand." In economics, there is a golden price scheme that
assures the maximum amount of profit (which is, after all, why Microsoft,
and you and I are in business). That golden price scheme is arrived at by
evaluating the demand and supply of the product. If the price is too high,
demand goes down, which affects price negatively, and thereby profit, as
supply is not changed. If the price is too low, profit is affected
negatively, as demand is not changed. If supply goes down, and demand
remains the same, price can go up. If the demand goes down, and supply
remains the same, price must go down. The objective is to balance price,
supply and demand so that the most profit is incurrred from sales of the
product.

Microsoft's prices are extremely competitive. Visual Studio.Net is arguably
the most sophisticated (i.e. "demanded") programming software ever created.
I suppose Adobe "should" lower their price for PhotoShop as well? How about
Macromedia DreamWeaver, which costs about 4 times as much as Microsoft
FrontPage?

Or, maybe, instead of complaining about price, which IS undoubtedly a factor
in the real problem of "how do I make more money as a programmer," examine
the aspects of the problem which you DO have control over, figure out a plan
(solution) and implement it, to solve the real problem?

IOW, think of this as an application you're designing. The requirement of
your application is to "make more money as a programmer" or perhaps "Start
making money as a programmer" (depending upon your current status). The
architecture of your application should present a solution to the problem.
Constants include things like the price of your development software.
Variables include all kinds of things which may or may not have a positive
effect on the solution, such as the speed and power of your computer, how
many hours you're willing to put into development, research, etc. And what
development software you use (since you have no control over the prices of
the products). Once you have identified all of the constants and variables,
solve the problem.

When I first decided to learn to program, I had no money, and no computer. I
bought some cheap books on programming, and downloaded a shareware
command-line C compiler from a BBS (dial-up Bulletin Board Service, for
those of you under 25) which worked with the original Kernigan and Ritchie C
language, not the standard, and started writing programs to teach myself. In
other words, I evaluated what was available to me under the existing
circumstances, kept the requirement in mind, and did what was within my
limitations to achieve my goal.

By following that methodolgy, I worked my way up to where I'm at now. I now
have all the tools and technologies I could ever want to do any kind of
project with efficiency. And I make a darn good living doing what I love to
do.

Or, as the old saying goes, "It is better to light one candle, than to curse
the darkness."

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

 

[Guest]

g- [Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:16:33 -0700]:

understand the points we are making the so-called MVP's. I thought MVP's
were independent of Microsoft. Is that not the case?

You do know MVPs get all that you have to pay for, for
free, right? Don't byte the hand that feeds and all that
is a plenty-good reason to do what he's doing.

"On my own dime..", What the hell do you mean by that? Is there some sort
of fee for these newsgroups now? I wouldn't be surprised.

Down boy. He's got as much right to complain about
you as you do about all the dough you don't want to
part with.

You could always say "I'm going to Linux". Lots of
free stuff, that's for sure. Of course, you have
to like to work for free, too, but then that's
for another thread. Become an MVP and you can get
it all for free, too. Then you can be on the other
side and complain about those that complain about...

 

[Guest]

This is not the proper forum for this type of feedback. I can sympathize with
many of the points, but I find two things:

1. The arguments are largely emotional and philosophical rather than logical
and emperical in nature.

2. Some of what you are reacting to is based on the way you are filtering
the information rather than what is actually being offered. I agree that MS
has done a very bad job of naming the product offering.

Here are a couple of things to think about.

Equivalents:
Standard today is more like Express 2005
Pro today is more like Standard 2005
Enterprise Developer (with some EA) is more like Pro 2005

Naming is part of the confusion.

Pricing:
When compared to other tools that have the Team System scope, the pricing of
the new products is on course. In fact, compared to a full Rational (now IBM)
suite, the pricing is inexpensive.

Future:
Nobody knows the future. This is a first stab. It is likely there will be
more offerings in the future. To make more offerings now, Microsoft would
have to make the Whidbey beta cycle extend and delay the product, which is
not a good idea. Better to have a few offerings today with more in the future.

Options:
Worst case, you can move back to Open Source for CI, TDD, etc. Enough people
do this and the market changes.

I disagree with you on the many hats part of your post. MS did a horrible
job of separating the hats with earlier versions. You were basically a
developer or an architect or a small business. There are more options today.
I do agree with you, however, that the selection process needs to be more
flexible. With constructive criticism, it will; with rants, it is unlikely.

---

Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

***************************
Think Outside the Box!
***************************

 

[Juan T. Llibre]

I have to smirk when trolls post.

One troll claims to want to help the community of programmers
who spend substantial time in these newsgroups here, but
when you search Google groups for his previous participations
in these very same newsgroups, the result is that the *sum total*
of his participation has been the trolling posts he's made claiming
to want to help this community. What a laugh!

No record at all of *any* community involvement, of any sort,
other than the self-seeking posts he's made on MSDN/VSTS.

Then, *you* chirp in and, of course, your participation,
although slightly larger than "Mr. Bicker", doesn't quite have
the community-serving participation of *any* MVP, yet all
you can pitifully manage is a broadside at MVPs in general.

You could have, at least, attacked *me*, and not MVPs as a whole.

What a couple of self-serving trolls you both are!

Go ahead. I won't be surprised at your next broadside.

I won't waste any more of my time
answering any reply you or your pal make, either.

It's quite clear what your motivations are.

g- [Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:16:33 -0700]:

understand the points we are making the so-called MVP's. I thought MVP's
were independent of Microsoft. Is that not the case?

You do know MVPs get all that you have to pay for, for
free, right? Don't byte the hand that feeds and all that
is a plenty-good reason to do what he's doing.

"On my own dime..", What the hell do you mean by that? Is there some
sort
of fee for these newsgroups now? I wouldn't be surprised.

Down boy. He's got as much right to complain about
you as you do about all the dough you don't want to
part with.

You could always say "I'm going to Linux". Lots of
free stuff, that's for sure. Of course, you have
to like to work for free, too, but then that's
for another thread. Become an MVP and you can get
it all for free, too. Then you can be on the other
side and complain about those that complain about...