multi level drop down menu help

[Leslie]

I've been asked to add a multi level drop down menu to several pages
for a client. I have no problem with a simple drop down menu, but the
multi level thing is driving me crazy. I have spent the better part
of today searching the web and have ended up only more confused than
when I started.

All examples/tutorials I've found involve javascript. My only
experience with javascript is to copy and paste code produced by
someone else, and that's only been on very rare occasions. The
tutorials I've d/l and tried to follow might as well be written in
greek for all that I'm getting out of them.

My client is a school district and the menus are for their curriculum
pages. Their requirements are:

Menu title: Grade Level

top level: Grade 1
Grade 2
Grade 3 etc. through Grade 12

next level: Objective 1
Objective 2
Objective 3, etc.

each grade level can have up to 10 or more objectives.

The objectives are in Adobe (.pdf) format. Their other requirement is
that for each Objective selected a new browser window open. (I know
the arguments about not opening a new window, but the point here is to
give teachers the ability to view and compare different Objectives
without the need to print the pages.)

Is all of this possible? Without javascript? Is there a tutorial
(that won't turn my tired old brain to mush) that I've missed?

Thank you!!

Leslie
"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person."

 

[bagbourne]

I've been asked to add a multi level drop down menu to several pages
for a client. I have no problem with a simple drop down menu, but the
multi level thing is driving me crazy. I have spent the better part
of today searching the web and have ended up only more confused than
when I started.

All examples/tutorials I've found involve javascript. My only
experience with javascript is to copy and paste code produced by
someone else, and that's only been on very rare occasions. The
tutorials I've d/l and tried to follow might as well be written in
greek for all that I'm getting out of them.

My client is a school district and the menus are for their curriculum
pages. Their requirements are:

Menu title: Grade Level

top level: Grade 1
Grade 2
Grade 3 etc. through Grade 12

next level: Objective 1
Objective 2
Objective 3, etc.

each grade level can have up to 10 or more objectives.

The objectives are in Adobe (.pdf) format. Their other requirement is
that for each Objective selected a new browser window open. (I know
the arguments about not opening a new window, but the point here is to
give teachers the ability to view and compare different Objectives
without the need to print the pages.)

Is all of this possible? Without javascript? Is there a tutorial
(that won't turn my tired old brain to mush) that I've missed?

Look at http://www.brainjar.com/

The menu containers themselves are output in HTML generated on the
server. There still has to be a bit of javascript to make them DO things
though like appear and disappear!

 

[Jukka K. Korpela]

I've been asked to add a multi level drop down menu to several
pages for a client.

Tell the client about organizing nested lists of links.

I have no problem with a simple drop down menu

This probably means just that you haven't _noticed_ the problems yet.

My client is a school district and the menus are for their
curriculum pages.

Then there's a particular reason to make pages accessible and simple.

Menu title: Grade Level

top level: Grade 1
Grade 2
Grade 3 etc. through Grade 12

next level: Objective 1
Objective 2
Objective 3, etc.

each grade level can have up to 10 or more objectives.

Write 12 headings for the grades, and below each heading, write a list
of up to 10 links. Problem solved.

If they want the "menu" into each and every page so that it must be
squeezed into stamp size, then tell them it's not the right approach:
the navigation is far too important to be made such a page ingredient.
If needed, you can _link_ to the page with the menu from each and every
page.

The objectives are in Adobe (.pdf) format.

Tell them that's a wrong format for the Web and if they will ever be
forced to comply with Section 508 legislation, they will be in a _big_
trouble if they keep using PDF as the only publishing format for any
essential information.

Their other requirement
is that for each Objective selected a new browser window open.

They are really playing this game just to please themselves, are they
not? You might be in trouble. There are too many cluelessness
indicators around.

(I know the arguments about not opening a new window, but the point
here is to give teachers the ability to view and compare different
Objectives without the need to print the pages.)

That's no point. They _have_ that ability. "Forcing" a link to open in
a new window does not add anything to the possibilities of using page;
it may (and often does) _remove_ some options. The teachers can e.g.
use right click to open a menu where they can open a link in a new
window. They _have_ to know the basics of elements of working in their
windowing environment, since they need to move windows on the screen
anyway.

On the other hand, opening a PDF file is troublesome in any case. It
too often happens that a browser, and even the computer, crashes when a
link to a PDF file is followed. If they keep using PDF, then teachers
will effectively need to save a PDF document onto local disk and open
directly the local file. Awkward, but otherwise, unless they are very
lucky, they get stuck with zombie Acrobat processes.

 

[Leslie]

Tell the client about organizing nested lists of links.


This probably means just that you haven't _noticed_ the problems yet.

You're certainly right about that! I've learned a great deal in the
past few days about what can and cannot be done.

Then there's a particular reason to make pages accessible and simple.


Write 12 headings for the grades, and below each heading, write a list
of up to 10 links. Problem solved.

I've solved that problem by linking each grade level to its own
curriculum page where there are descriptive links to each objective.

Tell them that's a wrong format for the Web and if they will ever be
forced to comply with Section 508 legislation, they will be in a _big_
trouble if they keep using PDF as the only publishing format for any
essential information.

There are quite a few documents on the web site that are PDF - monthly
cafeteria menus, board minutes, a student career guide book, etc. Is
Section 508 the legislation about accessibility for the blind, etc?
What about PDF makes them inaccessible? Are you suggesting that HTML
is the only publishing format for essential info?

They are really playing this game just to please themselves, are they
not? You might be in trouble. There are too many cluelessness
indicators around.


That's no point. They _have_ that ability. "Forcing" a link to open in
a new window does not add anything to the possibilities of using page;
it may (and often does) _remove_ some options. The teachers can e.g.
use right click to open a menu where they can open a link in a new
window. They _have_ to know the basics of elements of working in their
windowing environment, since they need to move windows on the screen
anyway.

The vast majority of teachers in our district are competent, caring
and motivated instructors, After working with some of them over the
past year, though, I've learned that a significant percentage are
internet ignorant, some even to the point of being challenged by the
power button. The curriculum pages are being put online so that they
will be used and consulted when needed in a relatively easy manner.
Right now the teachers are dealing with 7 - 10 three inch ring binders
that are stuffed full and well thumbed. At this point 'forcing' a new
browser window is the simplest option available. As time goes by and
skills are learned we can stop 'forcing' things to happen.

On the other hand, opening a PDF file is troublesome in any case. It
too often happens that a browser, and even the computer, crashes when a
link to a PDF file is followed. If they keep using PDF, then teachers
will effectively need to save a PDF document onto local disk and open
directly the local file. Awkward, but otherwise, unless they are very
lucky, they get stuck with zombie Acrobat processes.

That's certainly a consideration, especially with the variety of
software/hardware that's used throughout the district. As PDF files
these are pretty small, no graphics, all text and most no longer than
3 pages.

I'm most curious to know what your alternative is to the PDF format.

Thanks for your help!

Leslie
"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person."

 

[Jukka K. Korpela]

I've solved that problem by linking each grade level to its own
curriculum page where there are descriptive links to each
objective.

That's certainly a feasible option and becomes essential as the number
of links grows.

There are quite a few documents on the web site that are PDF -
monthly cafeteria menus, board minutes, a student career guide
book, etc.

Sounds rather strange. Small documents like menus should be accessible
in an easy and fast way, instead of being designed for quality printing
- which is what PDF is for, when used meaningfully. The "P" in "PDF"
means 'portable' officially, but it's best understood as 'print-only'.

Is Section 508 the legislation about accessibility for
the blind, etc?

Among other things, yes. It's about accessibility for all.

What about PDF makes them inaccessible?

That's a long story. Basically, PDF is a proprietary format that
requires special software, which the user needs to learn to use.
It does not adapt to each user's and browser's preferences but is
_designed_ to be presented in a fixed format, and this is quite
opposite to accessibility requirements. It also causes serious problems
to speech synthesizers.

Are you
suggesting that HTML is the only publishing format for essential
info?

Basically yes. Plain text is often almost as accessible as HTML, but
there's usually no reason to publish in plain text format.

I'm most curious to know what your alternative is to the PDF
format.

HTML is the obvious format on the WWW. If the documents are now
produced in PDF format, then the production process needs a revision.
It's basically a waste of time and effort _and_ makes the pages less
accessible. If quality printing is needed too, then HTML + CSS is often
a feasible option, and if not, it might be better to use HTML + CSS to
create the Web version and then generate e.g. a Word or PDF version
from it, adding features for quality printing. It's possible to go to
the other direction too (from PDF to HTML), but it's probably more work
and requires special methods that depend on the kind of PDF used.
Simple PDF is relatively easily converted into HTML.

 

[Leslie]

Sounds rather strange. Small documents like menus should be accessible
in an easy and fast way, instead of being designed for quality printing
- which is what PDF is for, when used meaningfully. The "P" in "PDF"
means 'portable' officially, but it's best understood as 'print-only'.

Thanks, Yukka for the thoughtful response!

Well, one of the main reasons for PDF pages is the ability of district
personnel, students, parents, interested visitors to the site, to be
able to print the page. The long term goal is to reduce the amount of
printed material generated by the district, a lot of which ends up as
trash.

That's a long story. Basically, PDF is a proprietary format that
requires special software, which the user needs to learn to use.
It does not adapt to each user's and browser's preferences but is
_designed_ to be presented in a fixed format, and this is quite
opposite to accessibility requirements. It also causes serious problems
to speech synthesizers.

I learned the problem with speech synthesizers very recently when I
open a PDF link in my aural browser. I didn't even bother to listen
to it because the text was so screwed up.

HTML is the obvious format on the WWW. If the documents are now
produced in PDF format, then the production process needs a revision.
It's basically a waste of time and effort _and_ makes the pages less
accessible. If quality printing is needed too, then HTML + CSS is often
a feasible option, and if not, it might be better to use HTML + CSS to
create the Web version and then generate e.g. a Word or PDF version
from it, adding features for quality printing. It's possible to go to
the other direction too (from PDF to HTML), but it's probably more work
and requires special methods that depend on the kind of PDF used.
Simple PDF is relatively easily converted into HTML.

The considerations I have is that the documents given to me for
posting as PDF have been created by district personnel, always in an
MS Office program, usually Word, sometimes Excel. I won't ask the
district personnel to send me HTML files because then I'd get whatever
kind of mess resulted from being "save{ed} as HTML" in the Office
program. I don't have the time to clean up those files so they'd
validate. I also don't have the time to take the Office documents and
rewrite them as HTML.

When I took over the site about 15 months ago the code was an absolute
mess. It was created by a wonderfully talented lady with no
experience in HTML. She was handed a copy of Dreamweaver and told to
"go to town!" I get a constant stream of update requests and as I do
them I'm changing the pages from table based layout to CSS and making
sure all the pages validate.

The PDF considerations will have to be looked at, but that will be
down the road a bit. Right now the push is to get as much information
as possible on the 'net. If it doesn't kill me first.

Leslie

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person."