Multiprocess I/O

S

seimarao

Hi,

In 'C', if two processes are doing their I/O then is there
any particular order adhered by the two ?

Suppose Process P1's I/O takes 5 minutes & Process P2's I/O takes
10 minutes, then does 'C' allow P1 to complete its I/O before
P2 even starts given that both start doing at the same time ?

Sincerely,
Seima Rao.
 
K

Kaz Kylheku

Hi,

In 'C', if two processes are doing their I/O then is there

In C, if you have two-processes, then your program is very platform-specific.
There are no "processes" in the C language itself. (Well, 2011 C standard has
threads now.)
any particular order adhered by the two ?

Suppose Process P1's I/O takes 5 minutes & Process P2's I/O takes
10 minutes, then does 'C' allow P1 to complete its I/O before
P2 even starts given that both start doing at the same time ?

C does not contain a scheduler; it is not an operating system.

Your paragraph contains a contradiction. "P1 completes I/O before P2 starts"
contradicts "given that both start at the same time"

If P1 and P2 start at the same time, then by logical definition alone, P1
cannot do anything before P2 starts.

Please re-phrase your question, and include some C code that compiles and runs
which demonstrates it, if you believe it to be relevant to the C language
somehow. What kind of multi-processing or multi-threading library are you
using; what kind of devices are you doing I/O on. Are the processes sharing the
same device or doing I/O to independent devices?

Generally speaking, if the I/O operations are to different devices, and the CPU
load associated with those operations is light, then their performances
are quite independent of each other.

Think about it: does your computer stop playing audio (I/O in process P1) so
that you can complete copying a file from the hard drive to your SD card (I/O
in process P2)?

And what does C have to do with it?
 
S

seimarao

In C, if you have two-processes, then your program is very platform-specific.

There are no "processes" in the C language itself. (Well, 2011 C standard has

threads now.)








C does not contain a scheduler; it is not an operating system.



Your paragraph contains a contradiction. "P1 completes I/O before P2 starts"

contradicts "given that both start at the same time"



If P1 and P2 start at the same time, then by logical definition alone, P1

cannot do anything before P2 starts.



Please re-phrase your question, and include some C code that compiles and runs

which demonstrates it, if you believe it to be relevant to the C language

somehow. What kind of multi-processing or multi-threading library are you

using; what kind of devices are you doing I/O on. Are the processes sharing the

same device or doing I/O to independent devices?



Generally speaking, if the I/O operations are to different devices, and the CPU

load associated with those operations is light, then their performances

are quite independent of each other.



Think about it: does your computer stop playing audio (I/O in process P1) so

that you can complete copying a file from the hard drive to your SD card (I/O

in process P2)?



And what does C have to do with it?

Suppose P1 & P2 start their I/O to the *same* I/O device
at 0 sec. My 'C' stdio library will buffer both I/O
ops to memory and then at a "suitable" time decide
to complete P1's I/O before starting P2's I/O.

Is this legal 'C' ?

Sincerely.
 
J

Joe Pfeiffer

Suppose P1 & P2 start their I/O to the *same* I/O device
at 0 sec. My 'C' stdio library will buffer both I/O
ops to memory and then at a "suitable" time decide
to complete P1's I/O before starting P2's I/O.

You're going to be getting answers to your questions that frustrate you
because you're asking what C will do about things C is simply doesn't
have responsibility for.
Is this legal 'C' ?

Assuming P1 and P2 are separate processes (on whatever platform you're
running), they have what amount to two separate instances of the IO
library. The behavior you're asking about can certainly happen; on the
other hand, you could in principle see byte-by-byte interleaving or even
see one process's IO stepped on and obliterated by the other's. None of
these are legal or illegal C; C just isn't relevant to them.
 
K

Kaz Kylheku

Suppose P1 & P2 start their I/O to the *same* I/O device
at 0 sec. My 'C' stdio library will buffer both I/O
ops to memory and then at a "suitable" time decide
to complete P1's I/O before starting P2's I/O.

The c stdio library does not do any such thing. Its output streams
can be in three modes: unbuffered, line buffered and fully buffered.

Unbuffered streams do not delay the delivery of data to the operating system.
Buffered streams accumulate a full buffer, and flush it out to the operating
system with it fills up. Line buffered streams automatically flush when
a complete line is accumulated. Buffered streams can be flushed at any time
with fflush.

There are no time-related rules.
Is this legal 'C' ?

If no language extensions are used in the C program, then it is not
a conforming implementation of stdio FILE * streams to have such a time-based
scheduling behavior. There can be such a behavior in the underlying operating
system, however.

For instance on many operating systems, the system call which outputs data to a
file can return before that data has been placed in the storage device.
Meanwhile, I/O to some other device might complete sooner. For instance,
suppose we write a block to disk, and then immediately print a message on a
serial console. The serial I/O to the UART might appear on the terminal before
the disk write is issued. Both write operations, the one to the disk and the
one to the serial device, can return to the caller before the data actually
goes out (i.e. without waiting for completion). Which one stays buffered longer
depends on the speed of the device and the strategy of the software management
layers above it.

There may be ways to wait for the completion of I/O if the program needs to be
sure; the C stdio library doesn't provide such a thing, however.

In the POSIX environment we can do fsync on a file descriptor. POSIX extends
FILE * streams with the fileno function, by which you can obtain a file
descriptor. fsync works for regular files. To wait for pending serial port
(tty) data to be written, there is another POSIX function: tcdrain.

These are all extensions to C, not part of standard C.

If you have multiple processes doing I/O on the same device, that may not even
be allowed, depending on the device. On Unix-like systems a "single open"
device will block or reject open calls if it is already open. On some devices,
concurrent I/O can do silly things, like interleaving the data in such a way
that it can't be unravelled: like if two processes both spew logging to a
console. Concurrent random access over record-structured files is possible, if
the processes agree on some sort of locking, to stay out of each other's way.
 
E

Eric Sosman

[Please don't double-space everything you quote. That's
Google Groups' fault, but using GG is *your* fault.]

Suppose P1 & P2 start their I/O to the *same* I/O device
at 0 sec. My 'C' stdio library will buffer both I/O
ops to memory and then at a "suitable" time decide
to complete P1's I/O before starting P2's I/O.

C's *only* mechanism for running more than one program
is the system() call, and C offers no way to synchronize the
actions of the program that called system() and the program
launched by system(). Thus, there's nothing in C that can
"decide" in the way you describe.

That said, the system on which C is running probably
provides synchronization mechanisms of some kind or other;
every O/S that is capable of running more than one program
has *some* means of keeping them out of each other's hair.
An O/S might conceivably make some of its synchronization
available through the system() call, but the only kind I've
ever encountered is "system() returns after the launched
program exits." Other kinds are certainly possible, but
I've never seen them -- and even this fairly basic style is
implementation-dependent and not mandated by C.
 
I

Ian Collins

Richard said:
Well, he will here that's for sure. In the real world however this is
the sort of thing C is used for.

Used for, sure. Responsible for, no. C is used for most ECU software,
but C isn't responsible for controlling engines.

How I/O from different processes is scheduled and or interleaved is
entirely the responsibility of the environment running the processes.
 
K

Keith Thompson

Eric Sosman said:
That said, the system on which C is running probably
provides synchronization mechanisms of some kind or other;
every O/S that is capable of running more than one program
has *some* means of keeping them out of each other's hair.
An O/S might conceivably make some of its synchronization
available through the system() call, but the only kind I've
ever encountered is "system() returns after the launched
program exits." Other kinds are certainly possible, but
I've never seen them -- and even this fairly basic style is
implementation-dependent and not mandated by C.

On POSIX systems, the string passed to system() is interpreted by the
shell /bin/sh, which means all of the Bourne shell's features are
available. So if a C program executes:

system("foo &");
system("bar &");

or even

system("foo & bar &");

then foo and bar can execute in parallel.

This is all beyond the scope of (but compatible with) the C standard,
which only says that:

If `string` is a null pointer, the system function determines
whether the host environment has a command processor. If
`string` is not a null pointer, the `system` function passes the
string pointed to by `string` to that command processor to be
executed in a manner which the implementation shall document;
this might then cause the program calling `system` to behave
in a non-conforming manner or to terminate.
 
G

Geoff

Suppose P1 & P2 start their I/O to the *same* I/O device
at 0 sec. My 'C' stdio library will buffer both I/O
ops to memory and then at a "suitable" time decide
to complete P1's I/O before starting P2's I/O.

Is this legal 'C' ?

C doesn't care. C doesn't have any responsibility for or any provision
for "tasking" if P1 and P2 are two different programs in a system. The
C library will be invoked in a very system dependent way such that
your two processes will be granted I/O access via system facilities.

If P1 and P2 are operating on _different_ I/O objects then there is no
contention and they can _appear_ to be running simultaneously.

However, if P1 and P2 are operating on the _same_ I/O object then the
contention must be resolved by the operating system and this is
off-topic for C per se. For example if P1 and P2 both try to write to
the same file there will be a race condition within the operating
system over who will be granted access to the file and in a modern,
properly designed OS the winner will be allowed a "lock" on the
resource until that process closes it.

But a C program has no knowledge of that activity and if you code a
program to open and close a resource and you try to code another
program to open and close that same resource then you will have many
problems managing that resource.
 
E

Eric Sosman

Eric Sosman said:
That said, the system on which C is running probably
provides synchronization mechanisms of some kind or other;
every O/S that is capable of running more than one program
has *some* means of keeping them out of each other's hair.
An O/S might conceivably make some of its synchronization
available through the system() call, but the only kind I've
ever encountered is "system() returns after the launched
program exits." Other kinds are certainly possible, but
I've never seen them -- and even this fairly basic style is
implementation-dependent and not mandated by C.

On POSIX systems, the string passed to system() is interpreted by the
shell /bin/sh, which means all of the Bourne shell's features are
available. [...]

... and system() returns when the launched program (/bin/sh)
exits. Whatever else /bin/sh may do during its lifetime, the
caller blocks in system() until /bin/sh itself finishes.
 
K

Ken Brody

(e-mail address removed) writes:
[... multiple processes to a single "I/O device" ...]
Assuming P1 and P2 are separate processes (on whatever platform you're
running), they have what amount to two separate instances of the IO
library. The behavior you're asking about can certainly happen; on the
other hand, you could in principle see byte-by-byte interleaving or even
see one process's IO stepped on and obliterated by the other's. None of
these are legal or illegal C; C just isn't relevant to them.

Out of curiosity -- would something like this fall under "undefined
behavior", or is there such a category as "beyond the scope of the C language"?
 
J

Joe Pfeiffer

Ken Brody said:
(e-mail address removed) writes:
[... multiple processes to a single "I/O device" ...]
Assuming P1 and P2 are separate processes (on whatever platform you're
running), they have what amount to two separate instances of the IO
library. The behavior you're asking about can certainly happen; on the
other hand, you could in principle see byte-by-byte interleaving or even
see one process's IO stepped on and obliterated by the other's. None of
these are legal or illegal C; C just isn't relevant to them.

Out of curiosity -- would something like this fall under "undefined
behavior", or is there such a category as "beyond the scope of the C
language"?

To say some behavior is "undefined" in the context of this group just
means it isn't defined by the C language. There's *lots* of behavior
that's not defined by C, but is defined elsewhere; maybe by the
particular compiler you're using, maybe by the OS you're running on,
maybe somewhere else. So in a sense the answer is "yes", but you won't
generally find something so tidy as a "defined elsewhere" note.

I'm sure some of the other people on this group with a better knowledge
of the standard will clarify this.
 
E

Eric Sosman

(e-mail address removed) writes:
[... multiple processes to a single "I/O device" ...]
Assuming P1 and P2 are separate processes (on whatever platform you're
running), they have what amount to two separate instances of the IO
library. The behavior you're asking about can certainly happen; on the
other hand, you could in principle see byte-by-byte interleaving or even
see one process's IO stepped on and obliterated by the other's. None of
these are legal or illegal C; C just isn't relevant to them.

Out of curiosity -- would something like this fall under "undefined
behavior", or is there such a category as "beyond the scope of the C
language"?

I'd vote for "beyond the scope." 1p2:

This International Standard does not specify

— the mechanism by which C programs are transformed for use
by a data-processing system;
— the mechanism by which C programs are invoked for use by
a data-processing system;
— the mechanism by which input data are transformed for use
by a C program;
— the mechanism by which output data are transformed after
being produced by a C program;
— the size or complexity of a program and its data that will
exceed the capacity of any specific data-processing system
or the capacity of a particular processor;
— all minimal requirements of a data-processing system that
is capable of supporting a conforming implementation.

The second through fourth points seem to cover most of what's
been discussed in this thread.
 
J

James Kuyper

(e-mail address removed) writes:
[... multiple processes to a single "I/O device" ...]
Assuming P1 and P2 are separate processes (on whatever platform you're
running), they have what amount to two separate instances of the IO
library. The behavior you're asking about can certainly happen; on the
other hand, you could in principle see byte-by-byte interleaving or even
see one process's IO stepped on and obliterated by the other's. None of
these are legal or illegal C; C just isn't relevant to them.

Out of curiosity -- would something like this fall under "undefined
behavior", ...

No - in order to qualify as undefined behavior, it must be the result of
the "use of a nonportable or erroneous program construct or of erroneous
data". That doesn't apply in this case.
... or is there such a category as "beyond the scope of the C language"?

The scope of the C standard is described in section 1. 1p1 lists things
specified by the standard, and does not include anything covered by this
issue. 1p2 lists some things NOT covered by the standard, and the second
item seems somewhat relevant: "the mechanism by which C programs are
invoked for use by a data-processing system;". However, there is no
officially defined name for that category.
 
8

88888 Dihedral

On 2/22/2014 3:51 PM, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
[... multiple processes to a single "I/O device" ...]
Assuming P1 and P2 are separate processes (on whatever platform you're
running), they have what amount to two separate instances of the IO
library. The behavior you're asking about can certainly happen; on the
other hand, you could in principle see byte-by-byte interleaving or even
see one process's IO stepped on and obliterated by the other's. None of
these are legal or illegal C; C just isn't relevant to them.
Out of curiosity -- would something like this fall under "undefined
behavior", ...



No - in order to qualify as undefined behavior, it must be the result of

the "use of a nonportable or erroneous program construct or of erroneous

data". That doesn't apply in this case.


... or is there such a category as "beyond the scope of the C language"?



The scope of the C standard is described in section 1. 1p1 lists things

specified by the standard, and does not include anything covered by this

issue. 1p2 lists some things NOT covered by the standard, and the second

item seems somewhat relevant: "the mechanism by which C programs are

invoked for use by a data-processing system;". However, there is no

officially defined name for that category.

The volatile identifier was in the C
standard long time ago.

The POSIX functions about threadings
and processes are somewhat vague
even in 201X.
 
J

James Kuyper

That's a little ambiguous - by "that category" I meant the category of
behavior that is outside the scope of the C standard.
The volatile identifier was in the C
standard long time ago.

How is that relevant to this thread?
The POSIX functions about threadings
and processes are somewhat vague
even in 201X.

Multi-process I/O is within the scope of POSIX, and I thought it was
sufficiently specific to answer the OP's question (assuming that POSIX
is the domain of that question).
 
T

Tim Rentsch

Ken Brody said:
(e-mail address removed) writes:
[... multiple processes to a single "I/O device" ...]
Assuming P1 and P2 are separate processes (on whatever platform you're
running), they have what amount to two separate instances of the IO
library. The behavior you're asking about can certainly happen; on the
other hand, you could in principle see byte-by-byte interleaving or even
see one process's IO stepped on and obliterated by the other's. None of
these are legal or illegal C; C just isn't relevant to them.

Out of curiosity -- would something like this fall under "undefined
behavior", or is there such a category as "beyond the scope of the C
language"?

I second the comments of Eric Sosman and James Kuyper. The
term "undefined behavior" applies only to constructs that
are part of the C language, and considered in the context
of a C program. What happens when a Pascal compiler tries
to compile or run a program, even if the program source
is C code, is neither "defined behavior" nor "undefined
behavior" as the Standard uses the terms. The Standard
does not consider the notion of "process" at all, except
non-normatively in a Note (7.17.5 p2); how processes
might interact is therefore neither defined nor undefined
but simply outside of what the Standard considers.
 
8

88888 Dihedral

That's a little ambiguous - by "that category" I meant the category of

behavior that is outside the scope of the C standard.







How is that relevant to this thread?
Don't you model digital systems
by asyn-I/O and syn-I/O carefully
in any digital design?
 
J

James Kuyper

Don't you model digital systems
by asyn-I/O and syn-I/O carefully
in any digital design?

I"m not sure what you mean by that, except that if you think that it
implies that multi-process IO should fall inside the scope of the C
standard, you're quite mistaken. It doesn't describe a multi-process
machine at all, and therefore says nothing about how I/O associated with
different process is or is not synchronized.

Other standards which do address multi-process systems (such as, for
example, POSIX) do address such issues, and C can be used on systems
conforming to such standards to perform such I/O - but the issues raised
by that possibility are not addressed by the C standard itself.
 
8

88888 Dihedral

I"m not sure what you mean by that, except that if you think that it

implies that multi-process IO should fall inside the scope of the C

standard, you're quite mistaken. It doesn't describe a multi-process

machine at all, and therefore says nothing about how I/O associated with

different process is or is not synchronized.



Other standards which do address multi-process systems (such as, for

example, POSIX) do address such issues, and C can be used on systems

conforming to such standards to perform such I/O - but the issues raised

by that possibility are not addressed by the C standard itself.

OK, lets be practical to consider
a memory loacation which can be
modified by more than one writer
indepently and the value of the
memory location stored will be used
by several readers from time to time
to perform updates of other computations in a system.


One will conclude that the ASYN and SYN rules for I/O RW operations must
be established first before designing a true working digital system.
 

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