Off topic: are we killing off the small to emdium web design firms?

[Wayne...]

Round here [the north east of England] prices seem to have gone through the
floor. Contributing factors are probably that these days everyone thinks
they can code and design a web site, know nothing at all about doc type's,
CSS, PHP, ASP, dynamic content etc etc.....

This is akin to letting your tea boy design your shop window and layout. I
have lost count of the clients that think even something as low as £100
would be far too much for the most complex of sites. I can see this causing
the end of small web design firms as we know it.

Standards are there for a reason, until the general internet populous are
more educated about these things [or even realise they exist!] we are all on
borrowed time.

I have been designing and coding web solutions for more time than I care to
remember and this is the first time I actually am considering leaving the
arena [work-wise anyway]. I wouldn't expect to be able to re-wire a house
myself I'd call in someone who understands the relevant standards and knows
there job. The proliferation of 'wizards' that fool people into thinking
that's a web site suitable for an online business and programs that make it
easier and easier and produce more and more bloated code such as Dreamweaver
and FrontPage only make matters worse.

Why hire someone when you can buy a program for less that enables you [most
often badly] to do it yourself? I realise this is an off topic winge but
just take notice of the newbie's trying to code there own site and get help
from paid professionals for free ;-)

It's the best con going for a small to medium sized business. Everyone has
a 'mate' or 'mate of a mate' that says they are a web designer.



Reality check:



Being able to hit some buttons in the right order in Dreamweaver or any
other program does not make a person a web designer.



Understandings of color theory etc are paramount. When sites such as that
for the Odeon chain of cinemas can't even produce a valid site then we know
the net has problems.

I have spent years as have many others that do this for a living learning
the hard way. Why should we cut our own throats by telling people who have
no intention of every hiring our type create a site of their own if they are
not prepared to do the work? I've had clients that not only don't knew what
I would term as very basic net knowledge but don't realize that you have to
optimize for search engine placement. Do they realize there site may not
even render correctly in some browsers and versions? This wasn't much of a
problem but as users of different makes of browsers are on the increase this
is going to matter one helluva lot!

Maintaining an existing site or putting right problems and bugs is totally
different.

This isn't a troll it's just the way I see it, I'm sure there will be MANY
MANY MANY people who disagree as is there right. Just ask yourselves the
reasons they find this post so horrifying.

The company I have been running is about to change direction to start and
use these people against themselves. They all seem to have the same
problems so why not charge the buggers for the solutions as some sites
already do?

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

I've been programming in one fashion or another seriously since the mid to
late 80's this is as bad as I can remember it.

The net is dead....long live the net



Wayne Robson

Disillusioned web solutions designer and coder

 

[Bardo]

Round here [the north east of England] prices seem to have gone through
the
floor. Contributing factors are probably that these days everyone thinks
they can code and design a web site, know nothing at all about doc type's,
CSS, PHP, ASP, dynamic content etc etc.....

It's the best con going for a small to medium sized business. Everyone
has
a 'mate' or 'mate of a mate' that says they are a web designer.

I think you've hit the nail on the head yourself. Where I live, for example,
the local college decided to get in one the act by letting its students
design websites for local businesses. They charge something like £50 for a
website which - quite frankly - usually looks bloody awful and is
fundamentally flawed in many different ways. The big problem is that most
potential clients aren't design or net-savvy enough to be able to tell the
difference between a 'good' and a 'bad' website - to them, it's the bottom
line that counts and when the local college offers what they see is no
different from what you're offering for a fraction of the cost, it doesn't
take them long to make a choice.

Then, of course, there are the 'hobbyist' web designers that see web design
as an easy way to make a few bob at weekends. Most of them know a thing or
two about PCs, are relatively accomplished 'hobbyist' HTML coders but have
no design skills whatsoever. I'm a strong believer that most web production
is 90% design and 10% coding but far too many people seem to think that web
designers are 'programmers'. They're not - they're designers. Ok, the guys
doing the back end stuff need to know their onions but even these guys are
often best kept away from the design aspects of web production.

Just my 5 cents worth!

 

[Wayne...]

I agree totally with what your saying! too many people are fooling
themselves into saying they are 'programmers' and thats rubbish. A skilled
back end guy knows his stuff but as you say you dont really be wanting to
let him lose with the design aspects of it!
So far touch wood our local colleges havn't caught up yet. Their courses
still teach people to code layouts using tables for gods sakes! No css or
server side language are even mentioned and some of these guys [and gals] go
out thinking they know there stuff! frightening.
Too many people think being a 'web designer' or a coder is a 'cool job' well
I can tell them its not. It's seeming to come into the same catagory of
'coolness' as hacking :-s Do they realise you can end up doing a month or
18 hour shifts on a major project to meet deadlines? Another drawback to
owning the damn business is the buck stops here I cant moan about my boss
coz I am him.
and customers can be hard to deal with at times, you had any that change
ther minds at the last moment ) costing valuable dev time..? we use our
terms and conditiioins to stop this. I think your guy in the street thinks
its just like typing into word and a no brainer.
(if only!)
To anyone who wishes to see if there 'course from college' or skills are
even at a beginners standard [ie the sort of person I would hire as a
trainee only] try parsing and writing a dynamic [mysqlor sqlserver
......access even.....lol] RSS feed that validates in real time. Not too
hard for anyone who knows there stuff but again not even mentioned most
places.....
And as for testing procedures....well I'll not even go there.....lol

Wayne...

 

[Matrix]

Typical, free market rules do apply here as well.

Some people can afford 300,000 car but most are driving 10,000
and they are still getting from point A to B in time.


Most firms does not need flashy, css' web pages or huge ad in Yellow Pages.

Internet, generally is not a gold mine for a business. Some businesses
made a fortune on the Internet, because others were thinking that on the
net they will make millions.

That myth is gone now. Almost.

Web page mainly helps with more info in ad in the paper or in Yellow Page.


If someone is using IE 3.0, don't expect him to be a spender! ;-P


Big business, big page, big dollars spent.


Small business, small budget. They will start with page done in FP or DW
and if that will work for them, no need to spend one dollar more.

If works in IE 5 and up and lately in Opera and Mozilla, that's good enough.

That's reality and NOTHING will ever change it.


You get what you paid for it.


Customer does not give a damn if you have use FP, DW or you have worked
your butt of to get these damned tables in css.

Looks good for him on his machine, that's good enough.

 

[Nik Coughin]

I agree totally with what your saying! too many people are fooling
themselves into saying they are 'programmers' and thats rubbish. A
skilled back end guy knows his stuff but as you say you dont really
be wanting to let him lose with the design aspects of it!

You know, it is possible to have good design skills *and* be a skilled
programmer at the same time

 

[Augustus]

Round here [the north east of England] prices seem to have gone through the
floor. Contributing factors are probably that these days everyone thinks
they can code and design a web site, know nothing at all about doc type's,
CSS, PHP, ASP, dynamic content etc etc.....

This is akin to letting your tea boy design your shop window and layout. I
have lost count of the clients that think even something as low as £100
would be far too much for the most complex of sites. I can see this causing
the end of small web design firms as we know it.

I think the big thing here is that schools are cranking out web designers...
teaching them how to build a page, html, css, graphic design, programming,
database programming... etc. On top of that, its pretty easy to learn the
basics on the net itself.

One thing I'll always contend is that web design is maybe only 20% actual
design and 80% sales...

This means that you end up with alot of people who can do the job, but don't
know how to find the job.

Most go with the thought "All I have to do is build a good portfolio site
and then the jobs will just roll in!" Which isn't the case.

Soon they fail miserably and end up working at Starbucks, complaining that
the IT market is dead... they evaluate their situation: surely something
must be wrong.

Almost every one of them comes to the same conclusions: the problems they
are having is because their portfolio isn't big enough... or its because
they are charging too much. None of them seem to realise that the real
problem is their way of finding work (putting up a website with an email
address and then sitting back and waiting) is whats not working.

So because of that you end up with a whole slew of designers out there that
are offering their services for free or for extremely low rates.

Standards are there for a reason, until the general internet populous are
more educated about these things [or even realise they exist!] we are all on
borrowed time.

To me the important thing is that people build a functional and atleast
decent looking website that they charge a proper rate for... the thing with
standards is that what one person has as standards isn't necessarily the
same standards for another person.

It's the best con going for a small to medium sized business. Everyone has
a 'mate' or 'mate of a mate' that says they are a web designer.

This was always a huge headache... so many times I heard this from
prospective clients and in the end all it meant was that I wound up doign
the website but I had to wait a couple of months to start (give enough time
for the friend or family member to either fail or give up)

I know how you feel about leaving the market too... I was there myself a
while back. In a way I suppose I did leave the field, since nowadays I only
work for myself or I do contracts for the Canadian and US governments
(though I am definitly my best client)

Clint

 

[Kris]

You know, it is possible to have good design skills *and* be a skilled
programmer at the same time

It is incredibly rare, but yes, it is possible.

 

[Bardo]

You know, it is possible to have good design skills *and* be a skilled
programmer at the same time

In my experience, it's very, very rare indeed and even then, those that
think that they do possess this magical combination are usually kidding
themselves about the real quality of their design skills...

 

[nice.guy.nige]

While the city slept, Wayne... ([email protected]) feverishly typed...

So far touch wood our local colleges havn't caught up yet. Their
courses still teach people to code layouts using tables for gods
sakes! [...]

I'll meet your "Their courses still teach people to code layouts using
tables" and raise you "My local college teaches the use of <font>, including
using a larger font size to create a heading"! I nearly threw up when I saw
that in the course notes!

Cheers,
Nige

 

[Philip Ronan]

Internet, generally is not a gold mine for a business. Some businesses
made a fortune on the Internet, because others were thinking that on the
net they will make millions.

That myth is gone now. Almost.

I think there's still money to be made from websites that rank highly in
search engine results.

But a lot of designers seem to attach more importance to layout and
appearance than to things like keyword placement and inbound links that have
a far greater effect on the success of a website.

Perhaps the small-to-medium design firms are disappearing because they don't
(or can't?) provide a comprehensive strategy for attracting customers to the
websites they produce.

Phil

 

[Wayne...]

While the city slept, Wayne... ([email protected]) feverishly typed...

So far touch wood our local colleges havn't caught up yet. Their
courses still teach people to code layouts using tables for gods
sakes! [...]

I'll meet your "Their courses still teach people to code layouts using
tables" and raise you "My local college teaches the use of <font>, including
using a larger font size to create a heading"! I nearly threw up when I saw
that in the course notes!

Cheers,
Nige

--
Nigel Moss
http://www.nigenet.org.uk
Mail address not valid. (e-mail address removed), take the DOG. out!
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is very, very busy!

PMSL oh my god then we truley are doomed )

Wayne...

 

[Webcastmaker]

I'll meet your "Their courses still teach people to code layouts using
tables" and raise you "My local college teaches the use of <font>, including
using a larger font size to create a heading"! I nearly threw up when I saw
that in the course notes!

Want to be really ill... Read the job descriptions, how often do you
see a requirement stating you must know frontpage?

 

[e n | c k m a]

Want to be really ill... Read the job descriptions, how often do you

see a requirement stating you must know frontpage?

I've seen a few Government positions here in Australia requesting that you
know how to use Frontpage and/or Dreamweaver...

 

[Toby Inkster]

I've seen a few Government positions here in Australia requesting that you
know how to use Frontpage and/or Dreamweaver...

Here's how to use Frontpage and/or Dreamweaver (on Windows):

1. Click the little 'x' in the top-right corner of the Window.
2. Say 'No' if it asks you if you'd like to save the current document.
3. Launch your favourite text editor from the 'Start' menu.

 

[Wayne...]

or forget windows based stuff entierly and use vi under linux [or notepad if
you really must]
simple is best I find. Yeah i have DW2004 yeah i sometimes use it for stuff
that it can save me time on but as a rule you end up spedning more time
sorting out the problems it causes that if you'd just done it in notepad!
mind you I do have and use editplus alot. basically for the line numbers
when debuigging code.

Wayne...

 

[Toby Inkster]

or forget windows based stuff entierly and use vi under linux [or notepad if
you really must]

Use Notepad under Linux if I really must?
http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/notepad