Oh! The people of all over the world!

H

help gaza

Oh! The people of all over the world!
www.okhovah.blogspot.com
www.okhovah.com
Every one who hear a "Help me" cry and do not answer, it is not
possible to call him human!
Have you heard the voice of Palestinian children in Gaza Strip? They
need your help! look: (I do not really advice you to see it, of
course. Because it is so painful. I am sorry I'm sending this picture
for you, but it is what happened.) http://i43.tinypic.com/qq7kts.jpg
This guiltless palestinian child (in the picture) was riding his bike,
and suddenly …, He lost his leg. So, He can NOT ride his bike
anymore.
let's do something for Palestinian children…
let's think about that…


Islamic Revolution Leader (of Iran) issued a statement Sunday on the
horrendous tragedy of Gaza bloodbath in the hand of the Zionists
2008/12/28
Islamic Revolution Leader Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Khamenei issued a
statement Sunday on the horrendous tragedy of Gaza bloodbath in the
hand of the Zionists, strongly condemning the heinous complicity of
the criminal Bush's regime with the Zionists, adding that the silence
of some international bodies and some Arab states provided for the
crimes.

Ayatollah Khamenei declared Monday as day of general mourning and
called on all Muslim people and free men of the world to render their
duty towards the tragic issue. The text of the statement is as
follows.


Bismillah-e Rahman-e Rahim

"We belong to Allah, and to Him we return"

The horrific atrocity of the Zionist regime in Gaza in which hundreds
of innocent men, women and children were massacred pushed the curtain
of deception from the blood thirsty face of the Zionist wolves and
noted the negligent about the presence of this hostile disbeliever in
the heart of the lands of Islamic umma.

The horrendous ordeal is very heavy and moving for any Muslim not to
say for any free and noble human being in any corner of the world.
However, the larger ordeal is the encouraging silence of some Arab
governments which claim to be Muslims. Which ordeal could be larger
than the fact that Muslim governments, otherwise expected to support
the innocent Gaza people against the usurping and hostile regime,
adopted a mood which encouraged the criminal Zionist authorities to
impertinently consider them as in harmony with the large tragedy?

Which answer the heads of those countries have prepared to give to the
Messenger of Allah (S.A.)? Which answer they have prepared to give to
their own nations which are indeed mourning the tragedy? Indeed today
the heart of the Egyptian, Jordanian and the people of other Islamic
countries is overwhelmed with sorrow about the bloodshed as well as
the protracted food and medicine embargos.

By his complicity in the large crime, the criminal Bush's
administration in the last days of his shameful rule more darkened the
face of the American regime than ever and added to its dossier of war
crimes. The European governments with their indifference and sometimes
their complicity in the large tragedy once more proved that their
claims of advocacy for human rights are false and also showed they are
present in the front against Islam and Muslims. Now, I ask the
scholars and Alims of the Arab world and the chiefs of the Egyptian al-
Azhar center "isn't it the time to feel the threat facing Islam and
Muslims?" "Isn't it the time to fulfill the mandatory act of standing
against any bullying ruler?" Is an additional, more divulging scene of
complicity between the hostile disbelievers and the hypocrites of umma
in repressing the Muslims than the current Gaza and Palestine
developments is needed to prompt you to feel responsibility?

I have also a question to ask the media and the intellectuals of the
world of Islam and especially the Arab world. For how long you have
decided to remain indifferent regarding your media and intellectual
responsibility?

Has there remained any more face for the scandal-hit human rights
bodies of the west and the so-called 'security' council of the United
Nations to lose?

All the Palestinian Mujahid and other faithful of the world of Islam
are supposed to defend the defenseless people of Gaza. Anyone who is
killed in the legitimate and holy defense is a martyr and is hoped to
be among the ranks of the martyrs of Badr and Ohud battles in the
presence of the Messenger of Allah (S.A.).

The Organization of the Islamic Conference must fulfill its historical
responsibility in the sensitive conditions and form a solid front,
bereft of inaction and preservations, against the Zionist regime. The
Zionist regime must be punished by the Muslim governments. The heads
of the usurping regime must be tried and punished in person for their
crimes and the protracted siege.

The Muslim nations are able to materialize the demands through firm
resolve. The duty of politicians, Alims and intellectuals in this
juncture is much heavier than others.

I declare Monday a day of general mourning in commemoration of the
Gaza tragedy and instruct the country's authorities to fulfill their
duties regarding the sad incident.

"And those who do wrong shall surely know by what overturning they
will be overturned"

Sayyed Ali Khamenei
December 28, 2008
 
M

Mensanator

Oh! The  people of all over the world!www.okhovah.blogspot.comwww.okhovah.com
Every one who hear a "Help me" cry and do not answer,  it is not
possible to call him human!
Have you heard the voice of Palestinian children in Gaza Strip? They
need your help! look: (I do not really advice you to see it, of
course.  Because it is so painful. I am sorry I'm sending this picture
for you, but it is what happened.)http://i43.tinypic.com/qq7kts.jpg
This guiltless palestinian child (in the picture) was riding his bike,
and suddenly …, He lost his leg. So, He can NOT ride his bike
anymore.
let's do something for Palestinian children…
let's think about that…

Islamic Revolution Leader (of Iran) issued a statement Sunday on the
horrendous tragedy of Gaza bloodbath in the hand of the Zionists
2008/12/28
Islamic Revolution Leader Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Khamenei issued a
statement Sunday on the horrendous tragedy of Gaza bloodbath in the
hand of the Zionists, strongly condemning the heinous complicity of
the criminal Bush's regime with the Zionists, adding that the silence
of some international bodies and some Arab states provided for the
crimes.

Ayatollah Khamenei declared Monday as day of general mourning and
called on all Muslim people and free men of the world to render their
duty towards the tragic issue. The text of the statement is as
follows.

Bismillah-e Rahman-e Rahim

"We belong to Allah, and to Him we return"

The horrific atrocity of the Zionist regime in Gaza in which hundreds
of innocent men, women and children were massacred pushed the curtain
of deception from the blood thirsty face of the Zionist wolves and
noted the negligent about the presence of this hostile disbeliever in
the heart of the lands of Islamic umma.

The horrendous ordeal is very heavy and moving for any Muslim not to
say for any free and noble human being in any corner of the world.
However, the larger ordeal is the encouraging silence of some Arab
governments which claim to be Muslims. Which ordeal could be larger
than the fact that Muslim governments, otherwise expected to support
the innocent Gaza people against the usurping and hostile regime,
adopted a mood which encouraged the criminal Zionist authorities to
impertinently consider them as in harmony with the large tragedy?

Which answer the heads of those countries have prepared to give to the
Messenger of Allah (S.A.)? Which answer they have prepared to give to
their own nations which are indeed mourning the tragedy? Indeed today
the heart of the Egyptian, Jordanian and the people of other Islamic
countries is overwhelmed with sorrow about the bloodshed as well as
the protracted food and medicine embargos.

By his complicity in the large crime, the criminal Bush's
administration in the last days of his shameful rule more darkened the
face of the American regime than ever and added to its dossier of war
crimes. The European governments with their indifference and sometimes
their complicity in the large tragedy once more proved that their
claims of advocacy for human rights are false and also showed they are
present in the front against Islam and Muslims. Now, I ask the
scholars and Alims of the Arab world and the chiefs of the Egyptian al-
Azhar center "isn't it the time to feel the threat facing Islam and
Muslims?" "Isn't it the time to fulfill the mandatory act of standing
against any bullying ruler?" Is an additional, more divulging scene of
complicity between the hostile disbelievers and the hypocrites of umma
in repressing the Muslims than the current Gaza and Palestine
developments is needed to prompt you to feel responsibility?

I have also a question to ask the media and the intellectuals of the
world of Islam and especially the Arab world. For how long you have
decided to remain indifferent regarding your media and intellectual
responsibility?

Has there remained any more face for the scandal-hit human rights
bodies of the west and the so-called 'security' council of the United
Nations to lose?

All the Palestinian Mujahid and other faithful of the world of Islam
are supposed to defend the defenseless people of Gaza. Anyone who is
killed in the legitimate and holy defense is a martyr and is hoped to
be among the ranks of the martyrs of Badr and Ohud battles in the
presence of the Messenger of Allah (S.A.).

The Organization of the Islamic Conference must fulfill its historical
responsibility in the sensitive conditions and form a solid front,
bereft of inaction and preservations, against the Zionist regime. The
Zionist regime must be punished by the Muslim governments. The heads
of the usurping regime must be tried and punished in person for their
crimes and the protracted siege.

The Muslim nations are able to materialize the demands through firm
resolve. The duty of politicians, Alims and intellectuals in this
juncture is much heavier than others.

I declare Monday a day of general mourning in commemoration of the
Gaza tragedy and instruct the country's authorities to fulfill their
duties regarding the sad incident.

"And those who do wrong shall surely know by what overturning they
will be overturned"

Sayyed Ali Khamenei
December 28, 2008

I scanned through this looking for how the Quran justifies
filling rockets with ball bearings but I didn't see it.

Did I just overlook it?
 
O

Obaid R.

I scanned through this looking for how the Quran justifies
filling rockets with ball bearings but I didn't see it.

Did I just overlook it?


No you did not.

I wonder if you would still have insisted that America's founding
fathers fighting the British, or indeed any occupied nation fighting
an illegal occupation force and settlement activity, find a verse
approving the nature of their weapons in their scripture before they
engaged their enemies. At least they are not using cluster bombs, and
other weapons that you conveniently overlooked Israel uses.

Maybe they, like you, and most probably like the Israeli occupiers
today, find the following a good enough excuse though. And that is
from the Jewish Torah, which is part of the Christian Bible, in case
anyone is wondering:

(Deuteronomy 020: 010):
""When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of
peace to it."
(Deuteronomy 020: 011):
"And if its answer to you is peace and it opens to you, then all the
people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall
serve you."
(Deuteronomy 020: 012):
"But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then
you shall besiege it;"
(Deuteronomy 020: 013):
"and when the LORD your God gives it into your hand you shall put all
its males to the sword,"
(Deuteronomy 020: 014):
"but the women and the little ones, the cattle, and everything else in
the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourselves; and
you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the LORD your God has
given you."
(Deuteronomy 020: 015):
"Thus you shall do to all the cities which are very far from you,
which are not cities of the nations here."
(Deuteronomy 020: 016):
"But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God gives you
for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes,"
(Deuteronomy 020: 017):
"but you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittites and the Amorites,
the Canaanites and the Per'izzites, the Hivites and the Jeb'usites, as
the LORD your God has commanded;"
(Deuteronomy 020: 018):
"that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable
practices which they have done in the service of their gods, and so to
sin against the LORD your God."
(Deuteronomy 020: 019):
""When you besiege a city for a long time, making war against it in
order to take it, you shall not destroy its trees by wielding an axe
against them; for you may eat of them, but you shall not cut them
down. Are the trees in the field men that they should be besieged by
you?"
(Deuteronomy 020: 020):
"Only the trees which you know are not trees for food you may destroy
and cut down that you may build siegeworks against the city that makes
war with you, until it falls."



Yeah, first steal the land, wage war, and enslave people; but this is
so uncool nowadays. So racist and backwardly. Okay lets "save alive
nothing that breaths" (Deuteronomy 020: 016) instead. Compassionate
conservatism. Still apparently in vogue.
 
J

James Stroud

help said:
Islamic Revolution Leader (of Iran) issued a statement Sunday on the
horrendous tragedy of Gaza bloodbath in the hand of the Zionists
2008/12/28
Islamic Revolution Leader Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Khamenei issued a
statement Sunday on the horrendous tragedy of Gaza bloodbath in the
hand of the Zionists, strongly condemning the heinous complicity of
the criminal Bush's regime with the Zionists, adding that the silence
of some international bodies and some Arab states provided for the
crimes.

From the "Zionism" wikipedia article: "Certain individuals and groups
have used the term 'Zionism' as a pejorative to justify attacks on Jews.
According to historians Walter Laqueur, Howard Sachar and Jack Fischel
among others, the label 'Zionist' is in some cases also used as a
euphemism for Jews in general by apologists for antisemitism."


Quit the antisemitism and work for peace--then hopefully you will find
peace. You won't find peace if you have hatred in your heart, even for
those who don't share your God.

James

--
James Stroud
UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics
Box 951570
Los Angeles, CA 90095

http://www.jamesstroud.com
 
J

James Stroud

Obaid said:
I wonder if you would still have insisted that America's founding
fathers fighting the British, or indeed any occupied nation fighting
an illegal occupation force and settlement activity, find a verse
approving the nature of their weapons in their scripture before they
engaged their enemies. At least they are not using cluster bombs, and
other weapons that you conveniently overlooked Israel uses.

If a people fight a holy war, they should be prepared to be measured
against the standards of their religious creed.

--
James Stroud
UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics
Box 951570
Los Angeles, CA 90095

http://www.jamesstroud.com
 
O

Obaid R.

If a people fight a holy war, they should be prepared to be measured
against the standards of their religious creed.

--
James Stroud
UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics
Box 951570
Los Angeles, CA  90095

http://www.jamesstroud.com


So are you justifying this:
(http://www.alquds.co.uk/today/05z49.jpg)? Does it feel still
human for one to see that and keep quiet, to know that it is
continuing-- with your explicit or implicit backing?

And are you for enslaving vanquished people? For putting all males
of the enemy "to the sword"? And for saving "alive nothing that
breathes" in a war? I am curious. After all these are all alleged
commandments attributed to non other than Almighty God found in
the Law (Torah) made in the first person and quoted to you above.

I do not understand how an illegal occupation and forceful
settlement of people in your own land against your well counts as
holy war. Nor do I see how some people worshiping some other god
unlike your own matter in this context. By the way, Almighty God
is the one and only God, He is the God of Adam, of Noah, of
Abraham and of Moses, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all.
This is the God Muslims worship (I can elaborate if you wish me
to). But you are mixing things up.

All of this is an appeal to whatever good is left in the human
nature. This is something along the lines of "slavery is
unacceptable," and "white is not superior to black" just like
"bombing innocent civilians and children and stealing their land
and besieging their cities" or backing the same is also not
acceptable. God and holy war are forced into this topic by those
who wish to blur the issues and confuse the topics.

But indeed, in a war, any war, waring parties should be measured
by some standard. Some might argue this should be ethics,
morality, or law based. I have no objection if it is scripture
based. And it is in that regard that the occupied Palestinians
(Muslim and Christian! Yes there are Palestinian Christians, even
in Gaza, dying all the same mind you!) are fighting for their
lives and freedom without (many informed religious authorities
would insist) contradicting the scripture.

I wonder how you'd react, on the other hand, if someone stole your
land and brought
another people to it and had them living off of it and left you
besieged, cold and hungry-- your children and wife bombed and
bleeding, your mother burned and your father and uncle dead by an
F16 striker-bomber dropping uranium enriched munitions and cluster
bombs.

Surely you would turn the other cheek, wouldn't you? What a
shame.

If it is the scripture that Israel and its backers want to be
measured against then honest historical examination
testifies to the fallacy of such a notion. For neither did
Almighty God condone the wholesale stealing of anything (land
included) nor did He ever command others to aid anyone in such an
abomination. Since when did rightful inheritance mean killing and
stealing from those one is supposed to inherit? "Thou shalt not
kill." (Exodus 020: 013). Rings a bell? "Thou shalt not steal."
(Exodus 020: 015). Remember that?

Moreover, the Christian West individually and collectively
(together with Israel of course) never turned the other cheek (not
once)
when they were ever attacked; and that alleged Torah (Law)
passage quoted above is arguably adulterated scripture. Read from
the Revised Standard Version of the Bible if you must:


"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with
us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a
lie."
(Jeremiah 008: 008)


No. These people do not want to be measured against anything.
They will use absolute and indiscriminate force when they have
the upper hand in any dispute (in spite of the teachings in their
scripture not because of it) and will rush to judge the helpless
victim as vicious,
and unholy in an amazing anti-truth media spin.

In closing, do compare the Deuteronomy passage quoted earlier
with these commandments found in the Qur'an:

--------------------------------------------------------------
In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful:
--------------------------------------------------------------
2: 190 "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you,
but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors."

2: 191 "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the
places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than
slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of
Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you
(there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers."

2: 192 "But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
 
S

Steven D'Aprano

I scanned through this looking for how the Quran justifies filling
rockets with ball bearings but I didn't see it.

Sounds like bullshit to me. Why would anyone fill rockets with expensive
ball bearings when shrapnel is cheaper *and* much more effective?

But in any case, not like the Torah justifies using cluster bombs on
civilians. On second thoughts, God told the ancient Israelites to commit
genocide so many times, what does one more time matter?
 
S

Steven D'Aprano

If a people fight a holy war, they should be prepared to be measured
against the standards of their religious creed.

The Palestinians are not fighting a Holy War. They are fighting a war to
remove an occupying power which is slowly strangling them to death.

It's amazing how religion poisons everything. Ignore the lies and deceits
-- on BOTH sides -- of religion, and we'd so easily see the Israeli/
Palestinian conflict for what it really is: one racist, imperial power
with tanks and jets committing genocide by slow economic strangulation on
a powerless but no less racist ethnic group.
 
M

Mensanator

Sounds like bullshit to me.

It's what was reported on TV. And journalists would never
lie, would they?

Why would anyone fill rockets with expensive
ball bearings when shrapnel is cheaper *and* much more effective?

Perhaps it was just scrap metal. There must be a lot of scrap
lying around Gaza.
But in any case, not like the Torah justifies using cluster bombs on
civilians. On second thoughts, God told the ancient Israelites to commit
genocide so many times, what does one more time matter?

But the OP isn't trying to get sympathy for the Isrealis, he's
trying to get sympathy for his own cause.

Which is hard to do given the provocation that's resulting
in Isreal's retalliation.

If the civilians are suffering, why isn't this appeal being
made to the Hamas leadership?
 
O

Obaid R.

But the OP isn't trying to get sympathy for the Isrealis, he's
trying to get sympathy for his own cause.

Which is hard to do given the provocation that's resulting
in Isreal's retalliation.

If the civilians are suffering, why isn't this appeal being
made to the Hamas leadership?


So an illegal occupation is NOT a provocation but fighting the
occupation IS? By which scales do you judge?

I would argue that a person following such backwards logic and who
sees these pictures[1] and STILL claims that showing sympathy is
difficult has a serious problem. After all the logic is simple: for
every action (read occupation) there is a reaction (read resistance)
equal to it in force and opposite to it in direction.

You can of course argue that the reaction is the cause of the action,
but that is clearly illogical and proves your iniquity in this matter
and your bias against the victim. It might take a humanitarian
catastrophe of sizable proportions and a biased person would still not
feel any sympathy. Not that there is no catastrophe, but rather
because bias is by nature practiced in spite of good reason and
available evidence, not because of it.



[1] Pictures
-------------
http://www.aljazeera.net/mritems/images/2009/1/6/1_883542_1_34.jpg
http://www.aljazeera.net/mritems/images/2009/1/5/1_883331_1_34.jpg
http://www.aljazeera.net/mritems/images/2009/1/2/1_882580_1_23.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45348000/jpg/_45348570_2.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45348000/jpg/_45348571_3.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45350000/jpg/_45350743_boygrab2466.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45346000/jpg/_45346309_ambulance226.jpg
http://www.alquds.co.uk/latest/data/2009-01-06-14-21-12.jpg
http://www.alquds.co.uk/today/06z49.jpg
http://www.alrai.com/img/208500/208725.jpg
 
R

Russ P.

The Palestinians are not fighting a Holy War. They are fighting a war to
remove an occupying power which is slowly strangling them to death.

It's amazing how religion poisons everything. Ignore the lies and deceits
-- on BOTH sides -- of religion, and we'd so easily see the Israeli/
Palestinian conflict for what it really is: one racist, imperial power
with tanks and jets committing genocide by slow economic strangulation on
a powerless but no less racist ethnic group.


Hamas deliberately and repetitively fires rockets into Israeli
populations. As if that weren't bad enough, they fire those rockets
from within civialian populations of its own, using women and children
as human shields. They *hope* that Israel will be forced to fire back
into civilian territories so that women and children will be killed
and maimed, so the television cameras will broadcast it to the world.

And people like you cannot figure out which side are the terrorists
and which side are the victims of terrorism. Let me ask you a
question. Suppose some deranged gunman grabbed a child hostage at a
schoolyard and used her as a human shield while he shot other
children. If the cops shot back, would you consider the gunman and the
cops to be on equal moral footing? How morally blind can one possibly
be?

I suggest you read this article by Alan Dershowitz:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=2F0C9E0C-704F-40CA-88DA-9B42FDEC2DF4
 
M

Mensanator

But the OP isn't trying to get sympathy for the Isrealis, he's
trying to get sympathy for his own cause.
Which is hard to do given the provocation that's resulting
in Isreal's retalliation.
If the civilians are suffering, why isn't this appeal being
made to the Hamas leadership?

So an illegal occupation is NOT a provocation

Jesus taught that you don't react to provocation,
so you won't make any headway with that argument.
but fighting the
occupation IS? By which scales do you judge?

I don't judge, I ignore. Your real task is to
break the apathy.
I would argue that a person following such backwards logic and who
sees these pictures[1]

The problem is that no one sees the pictures.

Which came first, the rockets or the cluster bombs?
Because the rockets were first, no one cares to
peruse the pictures because they have already
decided that the victims are just getting what
they deserve. You may have a keen sense of logic
but obviously are clueless about human nature.
and STILL claims that showing sympathy is

Doesn't this campaign of yours make you a heretic
to the true believers who advocate martyrdom?
difficult has a serious problem. After all the logic is simple: for
every action (read occupation) there is a reaction (read resistance)
equal to it in force and opposite to it in direction.

You can of course argue that the reaction is the cause of the action,
but that is clearly illogical and proves your iniquity in this matter
and your bias against the victim. It might take a humanitarian
catastrophe of sizable proportions and a biased person would still not
feel any sympathy. Not that there is no catastrophe, but rather
because bias is by nature practiced in spite of good reason and
available evidence, not because of it.

[1] Pictures
-------------http://www.aljazeera.net/mritems/images/20...jpghttp://www.alrai.com/img/208500/208725.jpg
 
S

Steven D'Aprano

Jesus taught that you don't react to provocation, so you won't make any
headway with that argument.

Ah, so that's why it's okay for Israel to react to Palestinian
provocation -- they're Jews, not Christians!

Which came first, the rockets or the cluster bombs?
Because the rockets were first

But they didn't. First were the tanks and machine guns and bulldozers,
evicting Palestinians from their homes. Then came the stones, in the
first intifada. Then came the missiles and bombs, and more tanks and
bulldozers, and the kidnappings, the assassinations and the blockade. The
Gaza rockets are the reaction to all these things.

It doesn't excuse them, but it makes them more understandable.
 
S

Steven D'Aprano

Hamas deliberately and repetitively fires rockets into Israeli
populations.

Yes, and they've killed 15 Israels since 2001, plus another 8 killed by
mortar attacks. If I was defending Hamas' rocket attacks, you would have
good reason to criticize my stance, but I'm not. But in any case, that's
an average of three deaths per year, and NOT ONE death since Hamas agreed
to a cease fire in June 2008.

Israel has killed 5,000 Palestinians over a similar time period, and
that's just the ones killed by direct violence.

To put it another way: two hundred lives for a life. And Alan Dershowitz
claims that "Israel’s actions satisfy the principle of proportionality".

As if that weren't bad enough, they fire those rockets from
within civialian populations of its own, using women and children as
human shields.

So the Israeli government claims. There's a shortage of independent
evidence for such a charge, but even if it were true, that does not
lesson Israel's responsibility. Provocation is not an excuse for
committing war crimes, and the indiscriminate killing of civilians is a
war crime, no ifs buts or maybes.

Since late 2007, Israel has kept the entire civilian population of Gaza,
all 1.5 million of them, under a blockade. They have interdicted food,
fuel and medical supplies. Wreaking collective punishment on civilians is
a war crime.

It is bad enough that Hamas' excuse for *their* war crimes is "Israel
does much worse!", but the Israeli excuse that Hamas does much *less* is
shameful. Disproportionate retaliation, also a war crime.

The Israeli information centre for human rights, B'tselem, has published
detailed statistics about the deaths on all sides from the Israeli
occupation. Even including terrorist attacks and individual murders, the
one-sided nature of the conflict is obvious.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

And of course the raw statistics don't give include the deaths caused by
the blockade, or the harm done to life expectancy due to shortages of
food, water, medicine and fuel. These real harms are entirely one-sided:
it's not Israelis who go hungry and thirsty.

Israel has used up all its sympathy from the early Arab attacks. They can
no longer claim the moral high ground. They are using their status of
victims fifty years ago to justify their own victimization of others.
This isn't about self-defense. They have international recognition from
Egypt and de facto recognition from Jordan, they have negotiations with
Syria (at least they *had* negotiations, until this latest round of
violence), they had Saudi Arabia offer to recognize their right to exist
(knocked back by Israel), they had the Oslo peace treaty (broken by
Israel). No, if Israel is suffering harm, it's because sometimes even the
weakest victim fights back.

They *hope* that Israel will be forced to fire back into
civilian territories so that women and children will be killed and
maimed, so the television cameras will broadcast it to the world.
And people like you cannot figure out which side are the terrorists and
which side are the victims of terrorism.

Oh no, I know exactly who are the terrorists.

The problem is that people like *you* cannot figure out that
international politics isn't the Good Guys versus the Bad Guys. Just
because one side includes terrorists doesn't mean the other side isn't
just as bad or worse.

Let me ask you a question.
Suppose some deranged gunman grabbed a child hostage at a schoolyard and
used her as a human shield while he shot other children. If the cops
shot back, would you consider the gunman and the cops to be on equal
moral footing?

If the police used the opportunity to bomb the entire school and the
surrounding neighborhood flat, killing hundreds of people just to get the
gunman, then I would consider the cops to be FAR WORSE.

How morally blind can one possibly be?

Obviously one can be very blind indeed.


I suggest you read this article by Alan Dershowitz:

The article you link to starts with an outrageous falsehood in the very
first sentence. He may be a professor of law, but he puts his love of
Israel ahead of intellectual honesty and justice: everything is about
justifying Israel's actions, no matter what they are.

Just one quote will do:

"But the house was also being lived in by a family. So the Israeli
military phoned the house, informed the owner that it was a military
target, and gave him thirty minutes to leave with his family before the
house was attacked. The owner called Hamas, which immediately sent dozens
of mothers carrying babies to stand on the roof of the house."

Yeah, right, pull the other leg. Presumably these "dozens" of mothers
with babies where all on stand-by, ready to rush to whatever house was
being targeted with only a few minutes notice. I can't imagine what
Dershowitz was thinking, pushing such unbelievable propaganda.
 
M

Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch

And people like you cannot figure out which side are the terrorists and
which side are the victims of terrorism.

Hm, the terrorists are the israeli military and hamas and the victims are
the civilians on both sides!? I thought that's pretty clear…

Ciao,
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch
 
J

James Stroud

Obaid said:
So an illegal occupation is NOT a provocation but fighting the
occupation IS? By which scales do you judge?

I would argue that a person following such backwards logic and who
sees these pictures[1] and STILL claims that showing sympathy is
difficult has a serious problem. After all the logic is simple: for
every action (read occupation) there is a reaction (read resistance)
equal to it in force and opposite to it in direction.

You can of course argue that the reaction is the cause of the action,
but that is clearly illogical and proves your iniquity in this matter
and your bias against the victim. It might take a humanitarian
catastrophe of sizable proportions and a biased person would still not
feel any sympathy. Not that there is no catastrophe, but rather
because bias is by nature practiced in spite of good reason and
available evidence, not because of it.


I'm much more apt to listen now that you aren't invoking references to
religion at every sentence. If Israel is guilty of inhumanity, then it
is more appropriate to appeal to one's humanity.

By the way, its obvious to most rational people that the Israeli
reaction is overwrought and likely morally unjust--but I can't stand
antisemitism just like I can't stand hatred of Islam just like I can't
stand hatred of Christians.

James

--
James Stroud
UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics
Box 951570
Los Angeles, CA 90095

http://www.jamesstroud.com
 
T

Terje

Is there a web service/API out there identifying Israel owned
software/software companies/web sites/web services? If I am about to buy
a piece of software, but don't want to support the Israeli economy, it
would have been handy if I could just poll a web service to get the
answer. This information should be kept in a database, and be public to
the world through a very simple xml API, something along these lines:

Request:
<nameOfCompany>Some Company Name</nameOfCompany>

Response:
<isIsraeliOwned>true</isIsraeliOwned>

Here's one source for this kind of information (I am sure there are
plenty others):
http://www.science.co.il/SoftwareCo.asp

Of course, a web service like this would be equally useful to those who
want to support Israeli companies.
 
S

Steve Holden

Terje said:
Is there a web service/API out there identifying Israel owned
software/software companies/web sites/web services? If I am about to buy
a piece of software, but don't want to support the Israeli economy, it
would have been handy if I could just poll a web service to get the
answer. This information should be kept in a database, and be public to
the world through a very simple xml API, something along these lines:

Request:
<nameOfCompany>Some Company Name</nameOfCompany>

Response:
<isIsraeliOwned>true</isIsraeliOwned>

Here's one source for this kind of information (I am sure there are
plenty others):
http://www.science.co.il/SoftwareCo.asp

Of course, a web service like this would be equally useful to those who
want to support Israeli companies.

Words fail me.

regards
Steve
 
M

Mensanator

Is there a web service/API out there identifying Israel owned
software/software companies/web sites/web services? If I am about to buy
a piece of software, but don't want to support the Israeli economy, it
would have been handy if I could just poll a web service to get the
answer. This information should be kept in a database, and be public to
the world through a very simple xml API, something along these lines:

Request:
<nameOfCompany>Some Company Name</nameOfCompany>

Response:
<isIsraeliOwned>true</isIsraeliOwned>

Here's one source for this kind of information (I am sure there are
plenty others):http://www.science.co.il/SoftwareCo.asp

Of course, a web service like this would be equally useful to those who
want to support Israeli companies.

Something like that web-service that publishes the names
and addresses of doctors who perform abortions so that
they can be assassinated?
 
M

Mensanator

Ah, so that's why it's okay for Israel to react to Palestinian
provocation -- they're Jews, not Christians!


But they didn't. First were the tanks and machine guns and bulldozers,
evicting Palestinians from their homes. Then came the stones, in the
first intifada. Then came the missiles and bombs, and more tanks and
bulldozers, and the kidnappings, the assassinations and the blockade. The
Gaza rockets are the reaction to all these things.

It doesn't excuse them, but it makes them more understandable.

I suppose when you yank someone's chain, you shouldn't
be surprised that a ton of shit comes down on your head.
 

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