OT Opera 7.54 Buggy

[Davmagic .Com]

I just downloaded the latest version of Opera (7.54) and it (still) has
a bug reading HTML...

This page of mine for example: http://davmagic.com/PAGES22.html which
has 2 "green link tables" one near the top and one near the bottom of
the content area.... which _should_ be centered (as all the other
browsers render it (correctly) Mozilla, Firefox, NN and IE).... where as
Opera LEFT ALIGNS the two tables (in error)....

Check it out, please and advise....

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http://www.davmagic.com/
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[wacko]

I downloaded Opera after it came highly recommended to me. God knows why
they rate it. I think it's rubbish. Doesn't load websites properly and on
some pages the text is really small. I've decided to stick with IE, it shows
pages the way they should be shown.

 

[Neal]

I downloaded Opera after it came highly recommended to me. God knows why
they rate it. I think it's rubbish. Doesn't load websites properly and on
some pages the text is really small. I've decided to stick with IE, it
shows
pages the way they should be shown.

I disagree. I use Opera as my preferred browser and newsreader, and I
couldn't be happier.

If the font-size is small, perhaps it's a flaw in the site design.
Normally I have no issues. Post a URL of a site you have trouble with in
Opera but not in IE.

I'm frankly not surprised you find IE renders sites as you think they
should, as so many sites are written expressly for IE as if it were the
only browser in existence. I take great pains to design for all browsers I
can get my hands on. Wish more authors - especially the ones getting paid
for it - would have the same work ethic.

 

[Lauri Raittila]

Davmagic .Com wrote;

I just downloaded the latest version of Opera (7.54) and it (still) has
a bug reading HTML...

Well, it doesn't have bug. Table should not be centered when wrappad in

This page of mine for example: http://davmagic.com/PAGES22.html which
has 2 "green link tables" one near the top and one near the bottom of
the content area.... which _should_ be centered (as all the other
browsers render it (correctly) Mozilla, Firefox, NN and IE).... where as
Opera LEFT ALIGNS the two tables (in error)....

Yes, There is bug in Mozilla, FF, NN ans IE that they treat table as if
it was inline table in some contexts.

Check it out, please and advise....

You don't need nested table to do box with black border and green
background. Your code is ugly and wasteful. You should start learning
HTML from scratch, as you haven't got basics.

 

[Kat]

For a start there's Opera's own homepage http://www.opera.com/ , There's
this forum http://sarahrulez.proboards19.com/index.cgi and this site
http://www.elizedutoit.com/ Some sites are ok but as it's a real hit and
miss situation I tend to stick with IE as I know the sites will show fine. I
think most people do tend to have IE though so I guess that's why most sites
are designed with IE in mind.

 

[Lauri Raittila]

wacko wrote;

I downloaded Opera after it came highly recommended to me. God knows why
they rate it.

It is best browser on earth. Just tested FF, and I'm even more sure now.
Ie is ont browser, it is security risk. (it has had more security related
bugs than it has browsing related features)

I think it's rubbish.

I think you don't know what you are talking about.

Doesn't load websites properly

Like which?. Opera usually shows websites as they should be shown, which
surely sometimes results differently than on buggier browsers.

and on some pages the text is really small.

That is propably becasue you haven't understood that you can change font
size, and minimum font size. alt + p to preferences, fonts

I've decided to stick with IE, it shows
pages the way they should be shown.

No, it shows them incorrectly. Mostly, that is. Problem is that there is
so many stupid "webmasters" there that make websites whiout clue, so it
is entirely possible, that their site only works on the browser they have
tested. And since many of those clueless people use IE, sites don't work
on other browsers, as they don't emulate all bugs in IE. The reason you
don't often see problems with IE is that most people that have clue
enaugh to use other browser than IE, usually also have clue to test with
IE too, and make compromises so that thissecurity risk would show their
site better.

 

[Lauri Raittila]

Lauri Raittila wrote;

Davmagic .Com wrote;

Yes, There is bug in Mozilla, FF, NN ans IE that they treat table as if
it was inline table in some contexts.

As OP most likely can't think himself, to "fix" this he can use
display:inline-table

 

[Mark Parnell]

I just downloaded the latest version of Opera (7.54) and it (still) has
a bug reading HTML...

Have you notified them of it? How do you expect them to fix it if they
don't know about it?

This page of mine for example: http://davmagic.com/PAGES22.html which
has 2 "green link tables" one near the top and one near the bottom of
the content area.... which _should_ be centered (as all the other
browsers render it (correctly) Mozilla, Firefox, NN and IE).... where as
Opera LEFT ALIGNS the two tables (in error)....

The code on that page is a mess anyway. I don't know how you expect it
to display the way you want in any browser.

AFAICT it's something to do with the nesting of the tables - that table
is nested at least 3 levels deep, so working out exactly what is causing
it is virtually impossible.

Is it _really_ that important? No offence, but your page looks like a
Geocities site from 10 years ago anyway - does it matter if something is
left aligned instead of centred?

FWIW, I think you're right - the table should be centred - but as I
said, the code is such a mess that getting to the root cause of it would
be too hard. If you can reproduce it on a simplified page showing
exactly what causes it then do so, and let them know.

 

[Neal]

For a start there's Opera's own homepage http://www.opera.com/

Sorry, I don't see the issue. The rendering differs, sure, but I don't
know why one is better than the other.

There's
this forum http://sarahrulez.proboards19.com/index.cgi

Both Opera and IE render this as flyshit. I see no substantial differences.

and this site
http://www.elizedutoit.com/

Again, I don't immediately see any rendering issues.

Some sites are ok but as it's a real hit and
miss situation I tend to stick with IE as I know the sites will show
fine.

One issue I do have is mail.yahoo.com when you're logged in. Some of the
positioning is poor. I switch to User Mode to access some of the
off-screen links.

I
think most people do tend to have IE though so I guess that's why most
sites
are designed with IE in mind.

Very true, but still not how it SHOULD be. How it is, though.

 

[Mark Parnell]

For a start there's Opera's own homepage http://www.opera.com/ , There's

You're kidding, right? That site looks fine in Opera, but looks quite
bad in IE. <aside>Wonder whether that's by design...</aside>

Not saying that's a good thing, but you were supposedly giving examples
of sites that work in IE and not Opera, not the other way around.

this forum http://sarahrulez.proboards19.com/index.cgi and this site
http://www.elizedutoit.com/

Both of those look pretty much identical in Opera to IE AFAICT.

Some sites are ok but as it's a real hit and
miss situation I tend to stick with IE as I know the sites will show fine.

I don't use IE because other browsers have a lot of features it doesn't,
and it isn't as secure. Plus it isn't even an option on my computer at
home. There are very few sites I can't use properly with other browsers.
Some don't look quite the way the author intended, but that's the
author's fault.

I
think most people do tend to have IE though so I guess that's why most sites
are designed with IE in mind.

When they should be designed to work in all browsers, not just IE. :-(

 

[Neal]

Is it _really_ that important? No offence, but your page looks like a
Geocities site from 10 years ago anyway - does it matter if something is
left aligned instead of centred?

Mark makes a great point here. We have to differentiate between rendering
issues which are inconvenient, and rendering issues which ruin the page.
In my experience, with no data to back this up, I feel IE has more
critical issues than any browser. It just so happens that IE luckily has
the market share, so the problems are less likely to turn up in common
usage.

And if you're nesting tables, you are asking for it. I looked at that
page, Dave, and I see a page which cold so easily be done in CSS. There's
no excuse for using tables except some odd allegiance to an antiquitated
design technique.

 

[Lauri Raittila]

Lauri Raittila wrote;

Lauri Raittila wrote;


As OP most likely can't think himself, to "fix" this he can use
display:inline-table

Or using margin:auto , to create illusion that other browsers don't have
bug...

 

[Lauri Raittila]

Mark Parnell wrote;

Have you notified them of it? How do you expect them to fix it if they
don't know about it?

Well, it is even harder to fix as it is not bug. It has been reported to
opera though, but I hope they never "fix" it.

The code on that page is a mess anyway. I don't know how you expect it
to display the way you want in any browser.

I knew what the problem likely was before looking code, so I was able to
find it there ;-)

Is it _really_ that important? No offence, but your page looks like a
Geocities site from 10 years ago anyway - does it matter if something is
left aligned instead of centred?

No, but he obviosly don't care. This is not first time he shows his
horrible code here.

 

[Mark Parnell]

Well, it is even harder to fix as it is not bug. It has been reported to
opera though, but I hope they never "fix" it.

I had a look at the specs, and it seems pretty unclear to me. The
<center> element is supposed to behave exactly the same as <div
align="center">. Because the align attribute is deprecated, there is
nothing in the specs to say what effect this should have on block-level
elements.

Incidentally, if you just have something like:

<center>
<table><tr><td>blah</td><td>blah</td></tr></table>
</center>

Opera does centre it. It seems it's only when the tables are nested like
in Dave's case that it doesn't.

As I said in my previous post, I don't really see why it's a problem
anyway.

 

[Lauri Raittila]

Mark Parnell wrote;

I had a look at the specs, and it seems pretty unclear to me. The
<center> element is supposed to behave exactly the same as <div
align="center">.

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#edef-CENTER
| The #edef-CENTERCENTER element is exactly equivalent to specifying the
| DIV element with the align attribute set to "center"

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#adef-align
| align = - -
| center: text lines are centered.

It does not say anything about centering block elements, so they aren't
centered.

Because the align attribute is deprecated, there is
nothing in the specs to say what effect this should have on block-level
elements.

Deprecated stuff is still defined in spec.

Incidentally, if you just have something like:

<center>
<table><tr><td>blah</td><td>blah</td></tr></table>
</center>

Opera does centre it. It seems it's only when the tables are nested like
in Dave's case that it doesn't.

Most likely, they have added some "fix", since I last tested...

As I said in my previous post, I don't really see why it's a problem
anyway.

Well, it surely isn't, especially when compared to other problems on that
site...

 

[Mark Parnell]

Mark Parnell wrote;
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#edef-CENTER
| The #edef-CENTERCENTER element is exactly equivalent to specifying the
| DIV element with the align attribute set to "center"

That's the one.

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#adef-align
| align = - -
| center: text lines are centered.

It does not say anything about centering block elements, so they aren't
centered.

From that last link:

<quote>
It is possible to align block elements (tables, images, objects,
paragraphs, etc.) on the canvas with the align attribute. Although this
attribute may be set for many HTML elements, its range of possible
values sometimes differs from element to element. Here we only discuss
the meaning of the align attribute for text.
</quote>

According to that, block level elements _can_ be affected by the align
attribute, but they don't go into any detail in the specs as to the
specifics.

Looking at the DTD, though reveals this:

<quote>
<!ATTLIST DIV
....
%align; -- align, text alignment --
</quote>

"text alignment" - this implies that it only applies to text, but it is
only a comment. I still think it is rather ambiguous, though I now don't
think Opera's behaviour is wrong, just that the behaviour is undefined,
and they happened to make a different decision to the other browser
vendors.

Most likely, they have added some "fix", since I last tested...

Possibly. I'm still running 7.23, though. From the OP, I assume it is
the same in 7.54.

Well, it surely isn't, especially when compared to other problems on that
site...

We certainly agree there.

 

[brucie]

In alt.html Davmagic .Com said:

I just downloaded the latest version of Opera (7.54) and it (still) has
a bug reading HTML...

i know its more convenient to blame the browser but the problem is your
lack of skill and knowledge. you're just making yourself look like an
idiot.

 

[Lauri Raittila]

Mark Parnell wrote;

That's the one.


From that last link:

<quote>
It is possible to align block elements (tables, images, objects,
paragraphs, etc.) on the canvas with the align attribute.

I wonder what they mean with paragraphs there, but it is irrelevant, as
paragraph can't contain table.

Although this
attribute may be set for many HTML elements, its range of possible
values sometimes differs from element to element. Here we only discuss
the meaning of the align attribute for text.
</quote>

According to that, block level elements _can_ be affected by the align
attribute, but they don't go into any detail in the specs as to the
specifics.

Yes, the exact situations are defined elsewhere in the spec, and they
don't apply situations where block level element is contained by element
with align attribute, but the situation where align attribute is used
directly on block element, which was not happening in this case.

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#h-15.1.3
This defines its meaning for tables
As you can see, table definition doesn't link to generic align attribute
explanation, like DIV definition
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#adef-align-TABLE#adef-
align-TABLE

I agree that align is not very well defined:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#h-11.3.2.1
Table cell text alignment is inherit from table. It is not possible to
change table text-alignment though, they even refer the place in spec
that says so.

"text alignment" - this implies that it only applies to text, but it is
only a comment. I still think it is rather ambiguous,

Seems that biggest part problem is in HTML spec, and that is already
solved by deprecating all involved stuff. So there was no point in this
discussion.

Likely before 7.2

 

[Toby Inkster]

http://davmagic.com/PAGES22.html which has 2 "green link tables" one
near the top and one near the bottom of the content area.... which
_should_ be centered (as all the other browsers render it (correctly)
Mozilla, Firefox, NN and IE).... where as Opera LEFT ALIGNS the two
tables (in error)....

Opera gets it right. (So do the others!)

The reason in this case is your <center> element. The XHTML spec (you are
using XHTML 1.0 Transitional) defers to HTML for the definition of <center>.

The HTML 4.01 spec says <center> is exactly equivalent to <div
align="center"> (the end of part 15.1.2).

The HTML spec explains (beginning of 15.1.2) how align="center" effects
text:
| center: text lines are centered.

However, the HTML spec declines to mention what should happen to block
elements within an aligned area. So quite simply any behaviour is correct!

Opera's behaviour is more consistant with the CSS "text-align:center" than
the others.

 

[Toby Inkster]

I think most people do tend to have IE though so I guess that's why
most sites are designed with IE in mind.

Most people are female, so I will design all my products so that it's
impossible for men to use them.

Discuss.