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Message: [QUOTE="Kevin, post: 4675267"] There is nothing wrong with using an ORM. The problem is that some people have the insane idea that the application layer should be responsible for maintaining referential integrity. Thee only other thing that bothers me about ORMs in Ruby is that they don't have very good support for stored procedures. They all seem to expect you to use dynamic SQL for everything, which would be fine if I did not already have stored procedures that did everything in my database. Writing your own pseudo-ORM is really not the best use of your time even if it results in cleaner code in your application as opposed to manually setting everything up. I wrote a bunch of classes to map my database's stored procedures in VB.net (This was for a .NET 2.0 application so no Linq or Entity Framework.) while interesting because it provided me an opprotunity to learn more about reflection in the language I am most comfortable in, I recognize that using an ORM like Entity Framework would have been more appropriate. Especially since Entity Framework supports stored procedures at least if you are using MS SQL Server. I also don't see the big benefit of using instead of triggers to update views that would otherwise not be updatable over an ORM. [/QUOTE]