The Ruby troll [was: Looking for...]

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

^^^^^

I love a self-answering post, don't you? ;-)

Well, to me, being a troll is not a reason, it's a condition indicating
a social disability or worse.

And, really, ruby looks pretty interesting. Blame the troll, not the
bridge.

I believe I was one of the first who realized the nature of it (the
troll), and I tried to called the Ruby community's attention to it:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/browse_frm/thread/bbb053db6d9b7151

Guess I hoped that one or two Ruby programmers would have dissociated
themselves from his actions. The lack of responses there makes me blame
not only the troll, but also the Ruby community, and in my world, that's
a rational reason for not considering the use of the language.

 

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

Would you judge Larry's creation based on Purl Gurl's
ever eloquent dissertations?

No, because many serious Perl programmers let the readers know what they
thought about her postings. But if everyone had silently watched
PurlGurl's ravages in clpmisc, I suppose many Perl users would have
hesitated. I would.

This troll, the "William James" character, is posting Ruby solutions
also in comp.lang.ruby where they are on topic, and I presume he is
appreciated and respected for that there. What makes me pissed is that
the Ruby community is indirectly, by its silence, approving of his
advocating Ruby through spamming comp.lang.perl.misc with off topic posts.

IMO, languages such as Perl and Ruby should be judged not only by the
technical usefulness of respective language, but also by the integrity
of their users.

 

[Curt Hibbs]

=20
No, because many serious Perl programmers let the readers know what they
thought about her postings. But if everyone had silently watched
PurlGurl's ravages in clpmisc, I suppose many Perl users would have
hesitated. I would.
=20
This troll, the "William James" character, is posting Ruby solutions
also in comp.lang.ruby where they are on topic, and I presume he is
appreciated and respected for that there. What makes me pissed is that
the Ruby community is indirectly, by its silence, approving of his
advocating Ruby through spamming comp.lang.perl.misc with off topic posts=

 

[Ara.T.Howard]

No, because many serious Perl programmers let the readers know what they
thought about her postings. But if everyone had silently watched PurlGurl's
ravages in clpmisc, I suppose many Perl users would have hesitated. I would.

This troll, the "William James" character, is posting Ruby solutions also in
comp.lang.ruby where they are on topic, and I presume he is appreciated and
respected for that there. What makes me pissed is that the Ruby community is
indirectly, by its silence, approving of his advocating Ruby through
spamming comp.lang.perl.misc with off topic posts.

IMO, languages such as Perl and Ruby should be judged not only by the
technical usefulness of respective language, but also by the integrity of
their users.

indeed, but i think many here, including myself, simply value kindess and
politeness over integrity and seriousness and are unwillingly to risk the
former in order to enforce the latter. and even that assumes people are
reading both groups which, i think, is the exception rather than the rule.

regards.

-a
--
===============================================================================
| email :: ara [dot] t [dot] howard [at] noaa [dot] gov
| phone :: 303.497.6469
| Your life dwells amoung the causes of death
| Like a lamp standing in a strong breeze. --Nagarjuna
===============================================================================

 

[James Britt]

Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:
...

This troll, the "William James" character, is posting Ruby solutions
also in comp.lang.ruby where they are on topic, and I presume he is
appreciated and respected for that there. What makes me pissed is that
the Ruby community is indirectly, by its silence, approving of his
advocating Ruby through spamming comp.lang.perl.misc with off topic posts.

Could I ask a favor? Please stop cross-spamming to the Ruby group.



Thanks,


James

 

[xhoster]

Well, to me, being a troll is not a reason, it's a condition indicating
a social disability or worse.


I believe I was one of the first who realized the nature of it (the
troll), and I tried to called the Ruby community's attention to it:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/browse_frm/thread/bbb053db6
d9b7151

Why on Earth would you do such a thing?

Guess I hoped that one or two Ruby programmers would have dissociated
themselves from his actions.

Are you under the impression that the troll has to get permission from the
majority of comp.lang.ruby in order to post here? What exactly kind of
dissociation would you expect them to perform? Would it involve holy water
and relics of the cross?

The lack of responses there makes me blame
not only the troll, but also the Ruby community, and in my world, that's
a rational reason for not considering the use of the language.

In my world, expecting the people of one newsgroup to police another
newsgroup is simply mad. (Of course, the irony has not escaped me that
here I am, chastising you from clpm for something you wrote in clr.)

Xho

 

[Nicholas Van Weerdenburg]

=20
No, because many serious Perl programmers let the readers know what they
thought about her postings. But if everyone had silently watched
PurlGurl's ravages in clpmisc, I suppose many Perl users would have
hesitated. I would.
=20
This troll, the "William James" character, is posting Ruby solutions
also in comp.lang.ruby where they are on topic, and I presume he is
appreciated and respected for that there. What makes me pissed is that
the Ruby community is indirectly, by its silence, approving of his
advocating Ruby through spamming comp.lang.perl.misc with off topic posts=

 

[Austin Ziegler]

Aside from your the preposterous nature of your proposition (that clr
members should police so-called trolls in clpm), you seem not to
understand the nature of clr itself. I don't read clr; I read ruby-talk
-- a mailing list hosted by ruby-lang.org. This is bidirectionally
mirrored with clr. So when your post about "The Ruby troll" came in, it
was completely new to me and unrelated to anything else -- and
absolutely no indication that your message had originated on clpm and
was unceremoniously crossposted to clr (and therefore ruby-talk).

Since I don't watch newsgroups anymore (they lost their utility for me
some years ago), there's nothing I could have said or done about this
in any case. Frankly, I was wondering who this twit talking about a
"Ruby troll" (that is, *you*) was. Now that I understand, I'm still
baffled why you think it's our responsibility to police clpm when you
can't even apparently stay in clpm and must cross-post to ruby-talk
with no indication of where you've posted from. Perhaps you should
introduce yourself to the killfile features of your newsgroup reader.

I'm a bit surprised if you're what represents clpm these days as I
remember Perl developers being a bit more open-minded and friendly back
when I still used Perl. (I suspect that you're not completely
representative.)

 

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

and even that assumes people are
reading both groups which, i think, is the exception rather than the rule.

I think so too. That's why I crossposted to clr.

when your post about "The Ruby troll" came in, it
was completely new to me and unrelated to anything else -- and
absolutely no indication that your message had originated on clpm and
was unceremoniously crossposted to clr (and therefore ruby-talk).

I did make a mistake in that respect, and for that I apologize.

Why on Earth would you do such a thing?

To let the clr readers know that the regular clr poster William James is
a Usenet troll. To rightfully discredit him.

What exactly kind of dissociation would you expect them to perform?

Well, one or two simple statements would have been nice.

If the opposite situation had been the case, i.e. some clpmisc regular
had for several weeks spammed some other newsgroup with rude Perl
advocacy posts, and somebody had complained to clpmisc, I have a feeling
that a few clpmisc regulars would have made dissociative statements, and
also made attempts to convince the culprit to stop.

 

[Devin Mullins]

I think so too. That's why I crossposted to clr.

Yeah, here's the thing: I don't care what goes on in clpm.

That's not on a holistic scale, of course. On a holistic scale, I favor
the general wellbeing of the world, and hope that nobody's forming
coalitions to perform ethnic cleansings over in clpm, but as far as
whether or not there happens to be a pro-Ruby troll: I don't care.

I don't care what clpm people think about me, or about the Ruby
community. If someone chooses to derive a conclusion about the Ruby
community without first spending time in clr/ruby-talk, then he is free
to draw whatever dumbass inference he desires, for all I care.

On the other hand, if he visits clr/ruby-talk, I want him to have a
generally positive impression both of the community, and of me. So:

Hi, Gunnar. I appreciate you pointing this out, but unfortunately I have
no power over William James (don't even know the guy), and, having a
life (sort of), I can't possibly take the time to try and influence him.
I think it is up to you and the rest of clpm to police his actions in a
way you guys best see fit. Thanks for visiting! I hope you venture into
Ruby one day, too. It's fun.

To let the clr readers know that the regular clr poster William James
is a Usenet troll. To rightfully discredit him.

Ah. Well, again, thanks, but I don't really care who a person is, on
this list, for the most part. For the most part, I just care what he's
worth to me. And for the purposes of ruby-talk, it affects me not that
he's a clpm troll. Maybe it'll have a real-world effect on me should I
meet him at RubyConf and discover he has a crappy personality or
something...

Of course, my opinion might not be representative, so thanks for the
information, anyway.

Well, one or two simple statements would have been nice.

Well, sorry. In Ruby, there are no statements -- everything's an
expression. *ba dum, ching*

Devin
Hope my honesty wasn't too brutal..

 

[John Bokma]

statements, and also made attempts to convince the culprit to stop.

Did that work with Purl Gurl (where is she anyway)?

The Ruby troll is well aware of what he is doing, and probably keeps doing
it long after most regulars have kill filed it.

 

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

Did that work with Purl Gurl (where is she anyway)?

Maybe, since she is gone. ;-)

But seriously, the comparison is halting. William James is
double-dealing: While he regularly makes presumably useful contributions
at clr, he is trolling at clpmisc.

The Ruby troll is well aware of what he is doing,

Of course. And by making the clr readers aware of it, I'm trying to
discomfort the troll.

Sure, it's an unusual action. But it's also an unusual kind of troll, right?

 

[Devin Mullins]

Sure, it's an unusual action. But it's also an unusual kind of troll,
right?

Maybe not -- not to be offensive, but it sounds like some Christian
friends of my parents, who prosyletize not to be annoying, but because
they really like my parents, and don't want them to end up in Hell.

(Gives new, and confusing, meaning to "devil's advocate.")

Devin

 

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

Ah. Well, again, thanks, but I don't really care who a person is, on
this list, for the most part. For the most part, I just care what he's
worth to me. And for the purposes of ruby-talk, it affects me not that
he's a clpm troll.

Okay, that's you. Probably there are a few others who look at it the
same way.

But I happen to believe that there are also more community minded, less
selfish people around at clr, people who are devoted to the open source
language they love to develop and use, and who get upset at a regular
clr participant who is deliberately hurting the image of Ruby.

Call me naive, if you like. I can live with that.

 

[Ezra Zygmuntowicz]

Okay, that's you. Probably there are a few others who look at it
the same way.

But I happen to believe that there are also more community minded,
less selfish people around at clr, people who are devoted to the
open source language they love to develop and use, and who get
upset at a regular clr participant who is deliberately hurting the
image of Ruby.

Call me naive, if you like. I can live with that.

you are naive

 

[Devin Mullins]

Okay, that's you. Probably there are a few others who look at it the
same way.

But I happen to believe that there are also more community minded,
less selfish people around at clr, people who are devoted to the open
source language they love to develop and use, and who get upset at a
regular clr participant who is deliberately hurting the image of Ruby.

Call me naive, if you like. I can live with that.

Probably not naive. Just grew up in a different world, next to different
people. (My guess, any way.)

It's not selfish, entirely. My first email was probably a little
inflamatory at the expense of accuracy. My bad. Props for not taking the
bait.

I am interested in how a distinct subset of people perceive Ruby. I
don't care what soccer moms think of Ruby. I don't directly care what
Microsoft thinks about Ruby. I directly care what Google thinks about
Ruby, because I value Google and the people that work there. (Having
Microsoft on Ruby's side might help adoption, so that's where the
indirect care comes from.) I think that the Google-like people, whom I
hope would a)benefit from Ruby, b)benefit Ruby, are going to stick
around and check out The Real Ruby, despite a sour apple or two.

Devin

 

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.perl.misc.]

Ignored, for obvious reasons.

Trolls are uniqely immune to people getting angry at them.
I dare say it's their *goal*. Even assuming you manage to
enrage and embitter clr onlookers to rally against this "troll",
it would only make him more successful, no?

Don't think so. Why do you choose to disregard the double-dealing by
William James? He is trolling in clpmisc, while nothing indicates that
he wants to be regarded a troll in clr.

Besides, what is this mentality that it's one newsgroup's job to
police the actions of regular posters in another group?

I never said it is it's "job". But it might be in _the interest_ of
devoted 'Rubyists' to do so.

Just like you found it motivated to apologize in clr for my "noise
contribution".

 

[John Bokma]

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.perl.misc.]

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.perl.misc.]

Ignored, for obvious reasons.

What are these obvious reasons?
Help me, for I know not how I wrong you by following netiquette.

I doubt it's proper netiquette to kick a thread out of a group, especially
if the group is involved. I have said many times before, and do so again,
setting a follow up works best when the OP does it, otherwise it's either
ignored, or a part of the thread runs in all groups, and other parts don't,
creating quite a mess. Setting a follow up to "put things straight" rarely
works, if at all.

Yes, you're making a big ol' stink about nothing,

Well, William James *is* a pain in the ass.