tools for programming applets

[horos22]

All,

I was looking to do some quick java development of applets. Here's my
situation:

1. I have a static server (ie: that I cannot touch) which serves my
client data (and applets).
2. a bare-bones client programming setup (vim and java compiler)

What I was hoping to do, therefore, is hijack the applets that are
coming from the server, and replace them with my own, compiled ones,
and hook the browser in such a way that when the applet is asked for,
my applet fires instead (hopefully in debugging mode) using the data from the server as input.

Surely this is a common enough situation that there are standard
firefox plugins to do this..

Or is it? In any case any, help on this would be most appreciated.

Thanks much,

Ed

 

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

In message

I was looking to do some quick java development of applets.

Nobody uses applets any more. Go learn about DHTML, AJAX and HTML5.

 

[Lew]

Nobody uses applets any more. Go learn about DHTML, AJAX and HTML5.

That doesn't answer his question, Lawrence, it doesn't help him, and it isn't
true anyway.

 

[Lew]

I was looking to do some quick java [sic] development of applets. Here's my
situation:

1. I have a static server (ie: [sic] that I cannot touch) which serves my
client data (and applets).
2. a bare-bones client programming setup (vim and java [sic] compiler)

What I was hoping to do, therefore, is hijack the applets that are
coming from the server, and replace them with my own, compiled ones,
and hook the browser in such a way that when the applet is asked for,
my applet fires instead (hopefully in debugging mode) using the data from the server as input.

Surely this is a common enough situation that there are standard
firefox plugins to do this..

Or is it? In any case any, help on this would be most appreciated.

No, applets are designed to load only from their own server. You'd have to do
some rather funky and heinous man-in-the-middle attack on your own server, and
I'm not even sure that would work. In any event, it's not only very far from
a standard or common situation, it isn't really even supposed to be possible.

 

[markspace]

What I was hoping to do, therefore, is hijack the applets that are
coming from the server, and replace them with my own,

This really isn't a normal scenario, afaics. You might want to explain
a little more about the situation. Why can't you touch the sever? (And
how is it "static"?)

The normal scenario is to clone their server as your test environment,
then modify your own little copy for each modification you make and test
it. Obviously, if you don't need every file on the server, you can get
by with just cloning the bits you need.

 

[Lew]

This really isn't a normal scenario, afaics. You might want to explain a
little more about the situation. Why can't you touch the sever? (And how is it
"static"?)

The normal scenario is to clone their server as your test environment, then
modify your own little copy for each modification you make and test it.
Obviously, if you don't need every file on the server, you can get by with
just cloning the bits you need.

Perhaps, OP, you're up to something nefarious or you'd simply test on
localhost. Why aren't you testing on localhost, horos22? That would be the
proper and safe and normal way to go from an engineering standpoint. The only
reason I can think of to do what you want, horos22, is to crack someone's
website to do harm.

Why aren't you testing on localhost, horos22?

 

[Richard Maher]

In message


Nobody uses applets any more. Go learn about DHTML, AJAX and HTML5.

Yes, learn about the piece of shit that is "WebSockets" and how they're
still disabled due to security (let alone prohibitively reduced
functionality) flaws! Marvel at what "WorkerThreads" attempt to accomplish!
Look on in awe at Comet and long-polling and the amount of time/money
invested in trying to replicate what Applets have offered the Web-Developer
for over a decade :-(

Yes my little Google/Microsoft slaves, "all pluggins are bad". They've
kiiled Java and are now doing their best to kill Flash. Just keep settling
for second rate shite just as long as there's no pluggin required. (Having
said that, with Oracle's ownership of Java and having seen what Ellison just
did to HP/Itanium, there are certainly no benign let alone benevolent forces
pulling the levers.)

Regards Richard Maher

 

[Joshua Cranmer]

In message


Nobody uses applets any more. Go learn about DHTML, AJAX and HTML5.

No one uses DHTML anymore. At least not that term.

And yes, people still use Java applets. I've found Java support for
toolkits, e.g., easier to use than the JS ones I've poked at.

 

[markspace]

In message


Nobody uses applets any more. Go learn about DHTML, AJAX and HTML5.

<http://www.minecraft.net/play.jsp>

"This game requires Java."

 

[horos22]

Perhaps, OP, you're up to something nefarious or you'd simply test on
localhost.  Why aren't you testing on localhost, horos22?  That wouldbe the
proper and safe and normal way to go from an engineering standpoint.  The only
reason I can think of to do what you want, horos22, is to crack someone's
website to do harm.

Lew,

The reason I don't clone their server is I don't have full access to
it, and am unlikely to get full access to it. Frankly I don't want
access to it. It is 'static' because I won't be able to change
anything remotely. I can get source code to the applet, but I probably
won't be able to upload it to any of their servers for testing. And
testing on localhost is impossible if you rely on pieces of data from
the remote server. You really want me to clone a database, web server,
web configuration setup just to test one lousy applet?

In order to do this, I shouldn't need access to *anything* external.
I'm not 'hacking' anything besides my own client, and it *should* be
as easy as simply replacing the remote applet for a local modified
one. And I'd be perfectly fine with having to do something like asking
the remote server admins to put an IP exemption in their server
configuration in order to do this - *anything* just to avoid the
headache of having to dup an entire environment.

Frankly I'm surprised there isn't something like this. I can
understand why it wouldn't be the standard or if you'd need a
directive to javarun that requires authentication from the remote
server to provide security for a non-standard local applet, but really
- needing to rebuild the whole environment to just test a new applet
strikes me as using a tail to wag the dog.

Ed

 

[Roedy Green]

I was looking to do some quick java development of applets. Here's my
situation:

1. I have a static server (ie: that I cannot touch) which serves my
client data (and applets).
2. a bare-bones client programming setup (vim and java compiler)

What I was hoping to do, therefore, is hijack the applets that are
coming from the server, and replace them with my own, compiled ones,
and hook the browser in such a way that when the applet is asked for,
my applet fires instead (hopefully in debugging mode) using the data from the server as input.

Surely this is a common enough situation that there are standard
firefox plugins to do this..

Or is it? In any case any, help on this would be most appreciated.

So you need to set up an alternate website, with your Applets on it.
You then need to server some webpages with <APPLET tags that refer to
your Applets. It sounds like you want to ignore the original website
entirely? no? Perhaps your applets could set some GET requests to the
orginal website if they wanted information from it. See
http://mindprod.com/products1.html#HTTP
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
How long did it take after the car was invented before owners understood
cars would not work unless you regularly changed the oil and the tires?
We have gone 33 years and still it is rare to uncover a user who
understands computers don't work without regular backups.

 

[Joshua Cranmer]

Frankly I'm surprised there isn't something like this. I can
understand why it wouldn't be the standard or if you'd need a
directive to javarun that requires authentication from the remote
server to provide security for a non-standard local applet, but really
- needing to rebuild the whole environment to just test a new applet
strikes me as using a tail to wag the dog.

Java applets were designed to be as secure as possible. Hence why, for
example, they are forbidden from opening a network connection to
anywhere other than their source domain. Allowing you to replace your
own applet to run in another's context domain is a recipe for security
holes; in principle, you could allow the server to list other applets
that can run in their domain (in similarity to how CORS stuff works),
but that is essentially the same level of changes needed as hosting
another copy of the applet.

 

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

In message


Nobody uses applets any more. Go learn about DHTML, AJAX and HTML5.

I find the above really strange, since when I look around on the net,
I see nothing even close to what can be done today using Java applets.

And Java is open source now also. isn't?

If you can show me just ONE web site, with simulations and
animation written in Javascript and html5, that are as good and
advanced as say the following well known Java applets sites, then
I will believe you:

http://www.falstad.com/mathphysics.html
http://www.myphysicslab.com/index.html
http://www.ph.biu.ac.il/~rapaport/java-apps/

And thousands more.

All what I have seen so far for demos written in Javascript and HTML5
are child like little toy applications compared to what can be done with
Java applets, today.

And Java applets now run well, not like many years ago, when, yes, they
did have performance issues, but it seems to me most of this is fixed now,
I hardly have a problem now running a Java applet these days.

Sometimes I get missing class error while loading, but that seems
to be a packaging/configuration error from the author, not Java itself.

Why the industry have to reinvent the wheel again every few years,
I never know. Why not improve what works today to make it better?

--Nasser

 

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

No one uses DHTML anymore. At least not that term.

I guess they just say “JavaScriptâ€.

 

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

I find the above really strange, since when I look around on the net,
I see nothing even close to what can be done today using Java applets.

Looked at Google Maps? And Google Docs? And whatever the Microsoft
equivalent is—365 somethingorother?

And Java is open source now also. isn't?

Not quite. And with Oracle busily destroying every single open-source
project they bought with Sun...

If you can show me just ONE web site, with simulations and
animation written in Javascript and html5, that are as good and
advanced as say the following well known Java applets sites, then
I will believe you:

http://www.falstad.com/mathphysics.html
http://www.myphysicslab.com/index.html
http://www.ph.biu.ac.il/~rapaport/java-apps/

Real-world businesses are running mission-critical systems in the cloud. And
the cloud isn’t Java applets.

Why the industry have to reinvent the wheel again every few years,
I never know.

Well, if Sun hadn’t had such a precious attitude toward Java...

 

[Richard Maher]

All,

I was looking to do some quick java development of applets. Here's my
situation:

1. I have a static server (ie: that I cannot touch) which serves my
client data (and applets).
2. a bare-bones client programming setup (vim and java compiler)

What I was hoping to do, therefore, is hijack the applets that are
coming from the server, and replace them with my own, compiled ones,
and hook the browser in such a way that when the applet is asked for,
my applet fires instead (hopefully in debugging mode) using the data from
the server as input.

Surely this is a common enough situation that there are standard
firefox plugins to do this..

Or is it? In any case any, help on this would be most appreciated.

Thanks much,

Ed

Hi Ed,

Is the Applet codebase URL different the HTTP webserver (even if the point
to the same IP). While testing then why not just get whatever clients/users
that are involved to put a localhosts entry for the codebase?

Regards Richard Maher

 

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

In message

You really want me to clone a database, web server,
web configuration setup just to test one lousy applet?

Just a quick rsync command. How hard could it be?

 

[horos22]

Java applets were designed to be as secure as possible. Hence why, for
example, they are forbidden from opening a network connection to
anywhere other than their source domain. Allowing you to replace your
own applet to run in another's context domain is a recipe for security
holes; in principle, you could allow the server to list other applets
that can run in their domain (in similarity to how CORS stuff works),
but that is essentially the same level of changes needed as hosting
another copy of the applet.

--

Josuha,

I understand that this is a security risk - if used in production
systems. But as a development tool, it's invaluable.

Consider protocol development. When I develop a ssh client, or mysql
client, or iscsi client, I don't need to make a new server instance or
somehow have to duplicate the server environment. The tests are
*client* driven. I change the client, and as long as the protocol
works, I can make whatever changes I want behind the scenes without
touching *anything* except the source code on the client.

Suppose you had 10 developers working on an applet. What are they
supposed to do? Duplicate the parent environment 10 separate times?
What if the central environment changes? Do you then need to propogate
those changes to all 10 daughter environments? what if two people want
to merge changes or then test their changes our versus production
data? Do they need then to impact production by having their applet
hosted in the production world?

This makes no sense. I can't believe there isn't something out there
to do this. Unix has a permissions system and its invaluable - you
open up the permissions on things to do development, get stuff done,
and then close down the permissions when you ship. There's gotta be a
way to overcome the extreme development penalty inherent in cloning
environments here; elsewise I feel damn sorry for the java applet
developer..

Ed

 

[horos22]

In message


Just a quick rsync command. How hard could it be?

Hm.. a quick rsync comand. Plus:

1. an extra box for hosting the server
2. installs of any centralized tools (mysql, etc)
3. copying of production data
4. porting of the server web setup to my client
5. the need to reflect any changes that production makes.
6. Any cross-platform changes necessary in going from linux server to
a microsoft client.

You've GOT to be kidding me.

Ed

 

[horos22]

Hi Ed,

Is the Applet codebase URL different the HTTP webserver (even if the point
to the same IP). While testing then why not just get whatever clients/users
that are involved to put a localhosts entry for the codebase?

Regards Richard Maher

I guess I could use a little more detail here since I really am not
familiar with applet development or programming. Do you have a good
pointer to a decent resource on the subject, say for setting this up
with apache?

My client that I'm going to be working on is totally separate from the
server. Hopefully, I'm going to be doing development locally, and
then, when done, uploading the code changes to the server. If there is
a simple applet directive that I could put in a test page that could
take the code from localhost and run it against data that is hosted on
the server, then that is exactly what I need.

Ed