what do you think about this site?

[www.douglassdavis.com]

What do you think of this website?

http://www.christianlibraryinternational.com

There are a few problems that I know of, but, I just wanted to put it
out there and see what you thought.

 

[Safalra]

What do you think of this website?

http://www.christianlibraryinternational.com

There are a few problems that I know of, but, I just wanted to put it
out there and see what you thought.

Seeing as you're using Frontpage, I'll comment on the usability rather
than the code (which, being Frontpage-produced, is a bit of a mess...):

1) Your logo at the top has no alt-text. In this case it should be
blank because it would be duplicating the title and slogan at the top
of the page, so just set alt="". Also it should probably be a PNG
rather than a GIF as it's suffering from some horrible dithering.

2) Try to avoid underlining text that isn't a link, as most people
assume underlined text is a link (it suggests 'clickability', as they
say...). Usually using <strong> would be better.

3) Your newsletter sign-up form looks like a search box - this isn't
helped by the button next to it being labelled 'Go', which users would
more frequently see in an address bar or search engine. The alt-text
for the button is better but I think 'sign up for newsletter' would be
better than just 'send e-mail address'.

 

[Matt-the-Hoople]

After reviewing the situation, www.douglassdavis.com looked in the general direction of alt.www.webmaster and blew a
mouthful of

What do you think of this website?

http://www.christianlibraryinternational.com

There are a few problems that I know of, but, I just wanted to put it
out there and see what you thought.

firstly, http://validator.w3c.org is your friend. declare a doctype, and then validate your pages.

I'm not sure that I'm really crazy about the blue text on yellow background ... it's kind of ... I dunno ... yicky. Remember - white
space is your friend.

I'll leave the FrontPage bashing to others ...

I think the 'architecture' is good - you can find information easily, and it's well organized.

All-in-all - nice first go.

 

[www.douglassdavis.com]

1) Your logo at the top has no alt-text. In this case it should be
blank because it would be duplicating the title and slogan at the top
of the page, so just set alt="". Also it should probably be a PNG
rather than a GIF as it's suffering from some horrible dithering.

2) Try to avoid underlining text that isn't a link, as most people
assume underlined text is a link (it suggests 'clickability', as they
say...). Usually using <strong> would be better.

3) Your newsletter sign-up form looks like a search box - this isn't
helped by the button next to it being labelled 'Go', which users would
more frequently see in an address bar or search engine. The alt-text
for the button is better but I think 'sign up for newsletter' would be
better than just 'send e-mail address'.

Thanks for the feedback... Unfortunately, the person who wrote much of
the content actually uses frontpage, but he now has a copy of
Dreamweaver that he is learning.

 

[William Tasso]

Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster,alt.html
From the safety of the http://groups.google.com cafeteria

...
Unfortunately, the person who wrote much of
the content actually uses frontpage,

Please explain to your collaborator that plain text will suffice.

but he now has a copy of
Dreamweaver that he is learning.

back away slowly and firmly but quietly shut the door.

there can only be one webmaster.

 

[Charles Sweeney]

www.douglassdavis.com wrote

http://www.christianlibraryinternational.com

Quick look. Looks pretty damn good!

 

[Charles Sweeney]

Safalra wrote

1) Your logo at the top has no alt-text.

Right. So change it from no text to ""!

Get real.

Anyway, it's a fucking logo we're talking about here.

Aside from three blind pedants (most blind people couldn't give a stuff)
what does this have to do with usability?

If the whole world was made for your three blind pedants, it would grind
to a halt. Which might not be a bad idea, you and your sort could then
jump off it.

I worked with disabled people for three years. Most were good decent
people. There was a minority who had a real chip on their shoulder, and
got ALL the attention through their incessant self-indulgent whinging
and complaining. And guess what. The good decent civilised polite
ones, many who could not even fucking speak, got put to the back of the
queue.

That's where your fucking stupid ideas get us.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Safalra wrote


Right. So change it from no text to ""!

Get real.

Charles, some of us - especially those on dialup - disable the
download and display of images for speed reasons. As I understand it,
some browsers will attempt to show an image (leave space for it?) if
there is no alt attribute. Others will not leave space if alt="" is used.

 

[GreyWyvern]

Charles, some of us - especially those on dialup - disable the
download and display of images for speed reasons. As I understand it,
some browsers will attempt to show an image (leave space for it?) if
there is no alt attribute. Others will not leave space if alt="" is used.

Opera will display "Image" instead of the image if it has no alt text, and
remove the placeholder box entirely - thereby keeping the page
clean-looking - if it includes alt=""

Grey

 

[William Tasso]

Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster,alt.html
From the safety of the Bell Sympatico cafeteria

Opera will display "Image" instead of the image if it has no alt text,
and remove the placeholder box entirely - thereby keeping the page
clean-looking - if it includes alt=""

Indeed, careful and considered use of alt text can lead to a page where
the absence of images is not even noticed.

 

[Safalra]

Safalra wrote

Right. So change it from no text to ""!
Get real.
Anyway, it's a fucking logo we're talking about here.

Nice use of abusive language to back up an argument.

fallacyCount++;

Aside from three blind pedants (most blind people couldn't give a stuff)
what does this have to do with usability?

Aside from the usability effects of the differences between missing
alt-text and alt="" mentioned by other posters, alt-text is also
required for validation.

If the whole world was made for your three blind pedants, it would grind
to a halt.

Lack of alt-text makes the world go round does it?

Which might not be a bad idea, you and your sort could then
jump off it.
fallacyCount++;

I worked with disabled people for three years.

You're not the only one.

Most were good decent
people. There was a minority who had a real chip on their shoulder, and
got ALL the attention through their incessant self-indulgent whinging
and complaining. And guess what. The good decent civilised polite
ones, many who could not even fucking speak, got put to the back of the
queue.

So 'good decent people' are those who tolerate the fact that the rest
of the world is too lazy to make even slight changes that would improve
their life greatly?

Exactly how much effort would it require for MS to change Frontpage to
default to alt="" if the user doesn't specify alt-text? This is a
one-off minimal cost that benefits usability for as long as
Frontpage-generated pages exist on the internet.

That's where your fucking stupid ideas get us.

fallacyCount++;

If you want any chance of your arguments convincing anyone who hasn't
already made up their mind, I suggest you read Stephen's Guide To The
Logical Fallacies (it's not my page, it's a totally unrelated Stephen):

http://datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm

And I know you don't care - I'm not aiming to convince you, but our
audience.

 

[William Tasso]

Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster,alt.html
From the safety of the http://groups.google.com cafeteria

...
the usability effects of the differences between missing
alt-text and alt="" mentioned by other posters ....

Would it help I wonder, or would it be considered to be spamming, if I
were to publish a link to a page which IM(NS)HO clearly and simply shows
the benefits of careful use of alt text?

oh well - let's publish and be damned, this domain registered last night:

Note: this is a holding page and carries a panel advertising web/net
related services - those easily offended by such displays are advised to
*avoid* this URL.

http://yvonnenolan.com/

The image logos in the advertising panel are replaced by the words
represented in the logo. The site logo is purely decoration and therefore
has no alt text.

The sense can still be derived with the images on or off. The best
implementation (in a graphical UA) I've seen is FireFox, but Opera and IE
are both usable. Of greater importance is the presentation in text only
UAs and lets not forget our friendly arachnids.

 

[Safalra]

Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster,alt.html
From the safety of the http://groups.google.com cafeteria

Shhh... I was hoping people wouldn't notice I use Google Groups. ;-)

Would it help I wonder, or would it be considered to be spamming, if I
were to publish a link to a page which IM(NS)HO clearly and simply shows
the benefits of careful use of alt text?

I'd only cosider it spamming if you started talking about your low, low
prices.

[snip]
http://yvonnenolan.com/
The image logos in the advertising panel are replaced by the words
represented in the logo.

If I was to be really fussy, I could point out that speech browsers
might have trouble reading the word 'tbData', although I presume most
of the modern ones can guess when something's an initialisation
("Professional web site services for business, from T-B-D-A-T-A").

 

[William Tasso]

Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster,alt.html
From the safety of the http://groups.google.com cafeteria

Shhh... I was hoping people wouldn't notice I use Google Groups. ;-)


I'd only cosider it spamming if you started talking about your low, low
prices.

ok then to talk about our excellent ..... - back away, only kidding

[snip]
http://yvonnenolan.com/
The image logos in the advertising panel are replaced by the words
represented in the logo.

If I was to be really fussy,

/braces self for criticism

I could point out that speech browsers
might have trouble reading the word 'tbData',

yes - that is indeed extremely picky

although I presume most
of the modern ones can guess when something's an initialisation
("Professional web site services for business, from T-B-D-A-T-A").

ahh - the voice processors I've heard pronounce it tee-bee-darta (almost
sounds like tee-bee-darda)

 

[Safalra]

Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster,alt.html
From the safety of the http://groups.google.com cafeteria

[snip]
http://yvonnenolan.com/
The image logos in the advertising panel are replaced by the words
represented in the logo.

[snip]
I could point out that speech browsers
might have trouble reading the word 'tbData',

[snip]
ahh - the voice processors I've heard pronounce it tee-bee-darta (almost
sounds like tee-bee-darda)

That's good then. (So long as they can be configured to use a British
accent instead I presume the capital letter is what stops them
trying to pronounce it entirely as an initialisation (otherwise strange
things would happen with an initialisation with a few vowels, but not
many).

 

[Neredbojias]

With neither quill nor qualm, Charles Sweeney quothed:

Safalra wrote


Right. So change it from no text to ""!

Get real.

Anyway, it's a fucking logo we're talking about here.

Aside from three blind pedants (most blind people couldn't give a stuff)
what does this have to do with usability?

If the whole world was made for your three blind pedants, it would grind
to a halt. Which might not be a bad idea, you and your sort could then
jump off it.

I worked with disabled people for three years. Most were good decent
people. There was a minority who had a real chip on their shoulder, and
got ALL the attention through their incessant self-indulgent whinging
and complaining. And guess what. The good decent civilised polite
ones, many who could not even fucking speak, got put to the back of the
queue.

That's where your fucking stupid ideas get us.

I agree that, generally speaking, the use of 'alt=""' is ludicrous. And
the argument that this or that browser does that or this if 'alt=""' is
included or not is equally ridiculous. Browsers could and should
default to an optimal solution with or without it presence.

But it is required for validation so I up-mark it in my images
nonetheless. The bandwidth waste is minimal.

 

[dorayme]

From: "Safalra" <[email protected]

If you want any chance of your arguments convincing anyone who hasn't
already made up their mind, I suggest you read Stephen's Guide To The
Logical Fallacies (it's not my page, it's a totally unrelated Stephen):

http://datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm

And I know you don't care - I'm not aiming to convince you, but our
audience.

All well said Stephen! It is nice to think that a reading of this guide will
do the trick. But I am gloomily convinced it won't because it takes some
clear thinking ability to appreciate the guide. And more to put it into
practice. There is no real hope for the world at all.

dorayme

 

[Tony]

Seeing as you're using Frontpage, I'll comment on the usability rather
than the code (which, being Frontpage-produced, is a bit of a mess...):

He must be pretty damn good, then, if something generated by Frontpage is
only a BIT of a mess!

 

[Safalra]

All well said Stephen! It is nice to think that a reading of this guide will
do the trick. But I am gloomily convinced it won't because it takes some
clear thinking ability to appreciate the guide. And more to put it into
practice. There is no real hope for the world at all.

It's easy to be cynical, but slow progress is being made. I remember I
time when mentioning usability anywhere outside of
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html was asking for trouble, but now
alt.html is becoming a friend of usability. I think it'll take a while
to conquer alt.www.webmaster, though...

 

[Red E. Kilowatt]

1) Your logo at the top has no alt-text. In this case it should be
blank because it would be duplicating the title and slogan at the top
of the page, so just set alt="". Also it should probably be a PNG
rather than a GIF as it's suffering from some horrible dithering.

The purpose of alt text is not so that a page will validate.

The purpose of alt text is to identify graphics that people either can't
see or aren't downloading, so why wouldn't you use the alt text to
identify the image as the site logo?