Wondering about comp.lang.c

[Severian]

I'm a veteran C programmer (about 20 years, including PDP11 and VAX
C), and I know what is on-topic here and what is not. I write standard
C everywhere possible, and encapsulate non-standard code in modules
that (I hope) can be reasonably ported to any platform. But neophytes
certainly don't have the experience I have. Is it really fair to treat
them like shit because they don't have that experience?

I think rather than simply directing newbies to other newsgroups where
they will get their system-specific answers (or just telling them to
go the **** away), it would be better to educate them.

I mean real education; not just "go here to read what the standard
says," but instead: here you can learn how to write standard C and
learn when and how it is appropriate to break the rules, and how to
maintain portable code that still creates *useful* applications on
multiple platforms, and thereby help them learn where the boundaries
really are.

I may just be talking out of my ass, but I know that it's a steep
learning curve, and telling people to **** off because they don't yet
know the rules does nothing productive for anyone (unless you consider
reducing newsgroup static the only important goal).

For example, alloca() has been around for a long time and is available
on most platforms. It provides a quite valuable service where it is
available, and I don't think mentioning it for the recent poster Brian
would have been bad. I directed him to the x86 newsgroup because I
knew his question was off-topic here, but where the hell else does
someone go to find out what really works on *most* systems?

I would rather have pointed out something like: 'on most systems,
alloca() allocates automatic memory that will be freed when the
function exits, but will not be available in all environments.' I
didn't do this because I didn't want to start a 50-post flaming waste
of space.

I won't be offended by flames, no matter how hot (I read and post on
talk.origins, so I'm used to that), so please don't hold back. But I
wonder where a novice C programmer, on any platform, should go to get
realistic, real-world guidance. Is USENET simply dead for that?

 

[Richard Bos]

I'm a veteran C programmer (about 20 years, including PDP11 and VAX
C), and I know what is on-topic here and what is not. I write standard
C everywhere possible, and encapsulate non-standard code in modules
that (I hope) can be reasonably ported to any platform. But neophytes
certainly don't have the experience I have. Is it really fair to treat
them like shit because they don't have that experience?

You leave me wondering where to find all _your_ posts explaining ISO C
to newbies in a friendly, mild-mannered tone. If you think you can do
better than the regulars, don't hold back, _do so_. The group can always
use more clueful regulars. What it does _not_ need is lurkers griping.

Richard

 

[jacob navia]

You leave me wondering where to find all _your_ posts explaining ISO C
to newbies in a friendly, mild-mannered tone. If you think you can do
better than the regulars, don't hold back, _do so_. The group can always
use more clueful regulars. What it does _not_ need is lurkers griping.

Richard

You use the same agressive tone Mr Severian was asking to
avoid...

 

[Grumble]

You use the same aggressive tone Mr Severian was asking to avoid...

Severian also said:

I won't be offended by flames, no matter how hot (I read and post
on talk.origins, so I'm used to that), so please don't hold back.

 

[Darrell Grainger]

I'm a veteran C programmer (about 20 years, including PDP11 and VAX
C), and I know what is on-topic here and what is not. I write standard
C everywhere possible, and encapsulate non-standard code in modules
that (I hope) can be reasonably ported to any platform. But neophytes
certainly don't have the experience I have. Is it really fair to treat
them like shit because they don't have that experience?

I think rather than simply directing newbies to other newsgroups where
they will get their system-specific answers (or just telling them to
go the **** away), it would be better to educate them.

I mean real education; not just "go here to read what the standard
says," but instead: here you can learn how to write standard C and
learn when and how it is appropriate to break the rules, and how to
maintain portable code that still creates *useful* applications on
multiple platforms, and thereby help them learn where the boundaries
really are.

I may just be talking out of my ass, but I know that it's a steep
learning curve, and telling people to **** off because they don't yet
know the rules does nothing productive for anyone (unless you consider
reducing newsgroup static the only important goal).

You will get no argument from me. I have just taken to replying privately
if the poster provides a valid email address or suggesting they take it
to comp.programming. I find that you can ask general C language questions
in that newsgroup and not have a bunch of people rudely tell you it is off
topic and to go away.

For example, alloca() has been around for a long time and is available
on most platforms. It provides a quite valuable service where it is
available, and I don't think mentioning it for the recent poster Brian
would have been bad. I directed him to the x86 newsgroup because I
knew his question was off-topic here, but where the hell else does
someone go to find out what really works on *most* systems?

I would rather have pointed out something like: 'on most systems,
alloca() allocates automatic memory that will be freed when the
function exits, but will not be available in all environments.' I
didn't do this because I didn't want to start a 50-post flaming waste
of space.

I won't be offended by flames, no matter how hot (I read and post on
talk.origins, so I'm used to that), so please don't hold back. But I
wonder where a novice C programmer, on any platform, should go to get
realistic, real-world guidance. Is USENET simply dead for that?

To be honest, I have seen people try to discuss what you are talking about
a few times. You will get soe people who will argue that this is
off-topic. Others will state that talking about topicality and manners is
always on topic for any newsgroup.

In the end, you just have to do what you can to cope. For me, moving the
conversation to comp.programming seems to have worked. I pop in here every
once it a while to see if there is someone I can help. In the end, I chalk
the attitude in this newsgroup to the fact that most the people here are
programmers and not educators. Over the past 20 years people have been
trying to change things here. Hasn't happened.

There are some people here who are quite knowledgable and when you keep
the message on topic can be very helpful. When I see people getting the
[OT] treatment I just drop them a little note about why it is off topic,
an answer to their question and some suggestions as to where they will get
a better reception in the future.

 

[Brian Lindahl]

You leave me wondering where to find all _your_ posts explaining ISO C
to newbies in a friendly, mild-mannered tone. If you think you can do
better than the regulars, don't hold back, _do so_. The group can always
use more clueful regulars. What it does _not_ need is lurkers griping.

Richard

Posting a message just to gripe about something being off-topic is
much worse for the newsgroup than whatever you may be talking about,
Richard. Severian is in no way griping. How I see it, he's bringing up
an important point, he posing the question about whether or not people
should change their attitudes around here. He's suggesting that one
should try to be more helpful than the typical annoying 'you're off
topic' - a suggestion I think people here should definately take.

I think the best solution in off-topic posts would be to notify the
original poster that s/he is off topic, but also provide a solution.
If you don't have a solution, don't post. If the poster receives no
answers, s/he will certainly look other places - very few off-topic
posters are mindless idiots.

If I see someone in this thread posting that this is an off topic
discussion, that person deserves to be shot. This is indeed on-topic,
it is discussing how one should respond to off-topic posts in
comp.lang.c.

On the current road, you'll end up with newsgroups with such narrow
constraints and lack of tolerance that someone with a important
question will have to bounce through several newsgroups just to get an
answer. This type of attitude not only bloats the initial newsgroup,
but each one after that until an answer is found. A completely
unsatisfactory result that could have been prevented with an initial
answer to the question, instead of just an 'you're off topic, go
away'.

 

[Default User]

I'm a veteran C programmer (about 20 years, including PDP11 and VAX
C), and I know what is on-topic here and what is not. I write standard
C everywhere possible, and encapsulate non-standard code in modules
that (I hope) can be reasonably ported to any platform. But neophytes
certainly don't have the experience I have. Is it really fair to treat
them like shit because they don't have that experience?

Please post some examples where anything like that happened.

I think rather than simply directing newbies to other newsgroups where
they will get their system-specific answers (or just telling them to
go the **** away), it would be better to educate them.

Teaching newbies how to find the correct newsgroup for their question IS
education. It IS helping them.



Brian Rodenborn

 

[Jens.Toerring]

I think the best solution in off-topic posts would be to notify the
original poster that s/he is off topic, but also provide a solution.
If you don't have a solution, don't post. If the poster receives no

Well, the problem is that quite often the off-topic answer is plain
wrong. And, already in order to keep the OP from taking that wrong
answer on face value, someone else has to correct it, and shortly
afterwards you have a long off-topic thread. And, even worse, other
people seeing this will assume that posting questions where just one
of the words in the subject line contains the letter 'C' is accept-
able and after a very short time this group will be completely use-
less because it's going to get swamped with such off-topic threads
(as it already happened to several other groups). Thus the only
reasonable way to handle off-topic threads is to redirect the OP to
a more appropriate group. And if this sometimes happens in not as
polite a fashion as you would hope for that hardly can be changed.
Different people have different ideas about what's polite. And many
off- topic posters also don't show much politeness in obviously
neither reading the FAQ nor at least taking the time to check what's
on-topic in the group by just going through a days worth of posts.

Regards, Jens

 

[Alan Balmer]

Posting a message just to gripe about something being off-topic is
much worse for the newsgroup than whatever you may be talking about,
Richard. Severian is in no way griping. How I see it, he's bringing up
an important point, he posing the question about whether or not people
should change their attitudes around here. He's suggesting that one
should try to be more helpful than the typical annoying 'you're off
topic' - a suggestion I think people here should definately take.

As Richard pointed out, an effective way of making that suggestion is
to provide a good example.

I think the best solution in off-topic posts would be to notify the
original poster that s/he is off topic, but also provide a solution.

I disagree. That's like paying off the kidnappers. If you give the
poster the solution to an off-topic question:

1. The poster has no incentive to find the right forum and will next
ask advice on what brand of automobile to buy.

2. The answers received will be limited to those provided by folks who
don't care about topicality.

3. Those answers will not receive proper peer review and may well be
wrong, incomplete, or misleading.

The "solution" for an off-topic poster is to find the correct venue.
Replies which provide guidance in finding that venue are acceptable
and appropriate.

If I see someone in this thread posting that this is an off topic
discussion, that person deserves to be shot. This is indeed on-topic,
it is discussing how one should respond to off-topic posts in
comp.lang.c.

By definition, topicality is topical. Declaring that people deserve to
be shot is an instance of the original complaint.

On the current road, you'll end up with newsgroups with such narrow
constraints and lack of tolerance that someone with a important
question will have to bounce through several newsgroups just to get an
answer.

Not if he does the appropriate research beforehand. Also, there are
many newsgroups which are intentionally more general in scope. This is
not one of them.

<snip>

 

[Keith Thompson]

I think the best solution in off-topic posts would be to notify the
original poster that s/he is off topic, but also provide a solution.
If you don't have a solution, don't post. If the poster receives no
answers, s/he will certainly look other places - very few off-topic
posters are mindless idiots.

I disagree. As others have pointed out, attempting to provide
off-topic solutions in this newsgroup can cause serious problems:
there's no adequate peer review, and it tends to decrease the
signal-to-noise ratio.

I haven't actually counted, but I think I see roughly equal numbers of
cases of regulars overreacting to off-topic questions, and newbies
overreacting to being told that their questions are off-topic.

People coming here to ask questions can't always be expected to know
in advance whether their questions are topical or not. For example,
someone might reasonably assume that a question about something in
Chapter 8 of K&R ("The UNIX System Interface") would be topical in
comp.lang.c, but it's not. Of course we should be polite to anyone
who's not a deliberate troll, but we should politely send them where
they can get good answers to their questions.

A hint that points in the general direction of a system-specific
solution probably isn't out of order. For example, here's something I
wrote a few days ago:

] There's no portable way to do what you want in standard C, which is
] what we discuss here. There is probably a non-portable way to do it.
] You might try asking in comp.os.msdos.programmer. (But first consult
] your documentation and/or do a web search; search for "kbhit" is
] likely to be useful.)

Apart from a grammatical error that I just noticed, I think that was a
pretty good response.

 

[hugo27]

I'm a veteran C programmer (about 20 years, including PDP11 and VAX
C), and I know what is on-topic here and what is not. I write standard
C everywhere possible, and encapsulate non-standard code in modules
that (I hope) can be reasonably ported to any platform. But neophytes
certainly don't have the experience I have. Is it really fair to treat
them like shit because they don't have that experience?

I think rather than simply directing newbies to other newsgroups where
they will get their system-specific answers (or just telling them to
go the **** away), it would be better to educate them.

I mean real education; not just "go here to read what the standard
says," but instead: here you can learn how to write standard C and
learn when and how it is appropriate to break the rules, and how to
maintain portable code that still creates *useful* applications on
multiple platforms, and thereby help them learn where the boundaries
really are.

I may just be talking out of my ass, but I know that it's a steep
learning curve, and telling people to **** off because they don't yet
know the rules does nothing productive for anyone (unless you consider
reducing newsgroup static the only important goal).

For example, alloca() has been around for a long time and is available
on most platforms. It provides a quite valuable service where it is
available, and I don't think mentioning it for the recent poster Brian
would have been bad. I directed him to the x86 newsgroup because I
knew his question was off-topic here, but where the hell else does
someone go to find out what really works on *most* systems?

I would rather have pointed out something like: 'on most systems,
alloca() allocates automatic memory that will be freed when the
function exits, but will not be available in all environments.' I
didn't do this because I didn't want to start a 50-post flaming waste
of space.

I won't be offended by flames, no matter how hot (I read and post on
talk.origins, so I'm used to that), so please don't hold back. But I
wonder where a novice C programmer, on any platform, should go to get
realistic, real-world guidance. Is USENET simply dead for that?

 

[James Hu]

I'm a veteran C programmer (about 20 years, including PDP11 and VAX
C), and I know what is on-topic here and what is not. I write standard
C everywhere possible, and encapsulate non-standard code in modules
that (I hope) can be reasonably ported to any platform. But neophytes
certainly don't have the experience I have. Is it really fair to treat
them like shit because they don't have that experience?

I think rather than simply directing newbies to other newsgroups where
they will get their system-specific answers (or just telling them to
go the **** away), it would be better to educate them.

[snip]

If you have suggestions for the bi-weekly "Welcome to comp.lang.c" post,
please contribute.

My most recent posting:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&[email protected]

And it is available for viewing online at:

http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt

Please post suggestions to this group so that it can be reviewed, and I
will make changes that seem to have a consensus. I will probably edit
the content if it contains foul language, though, since I don't consider
that very welcoming.

-- James

 

[Wayne Rasmussen]

Posting a message just to gripe about something being off-topic is
much worse for the newsgroup than whatever you may be talking about,
Richard. Severian is in no way griping. How I see it, he's bringing up
an important point, he posing the question about whether or not people
should change their attitudes around here. He's suggesting that one
should try to be more helpful than the typical annoying 'you're off
topic' - a suggestion I think people here should definately take.

I think the best solution in off-topic posts would be to notify the
original poster that s/he is off topic, but also provide a solution.
If you don't have a solution, don't post. If the poster receives no
answers, s/he will certainly look other places - very few off-topic
posters are mindless idiots.

If I see someone in this thread posting that this is an off topic
discussion, that person deserves to be shot. This is indeed on-topic,
it is discussing how one should respond to off-topic posts in
comp.lang.c.

On the current road, you'll end up with newsgroups with such narrow
constraints and lack of tolerance that someone with a important
question will have to bounce through several newsgroups just to get an
answer. This type of attitude not only bloats the initial newsgroup,
but each one after that until an answer is found. A completely
unsatisfactory result that could have been prevented with an initial
answer to the question, instead of just an 'you're off topic, go
away'.

This newsgroup is about the c programming language not about attitudes.