A problem for "fluid design" experts.

[David Segall]

Justified text always has varied spacing between words. Every time
my fast-reading eye encounters a longer than usual space, it pauses.

This is _not_ justified text. Proper justified text does not routinely
produce arbitrary spacing between words. It distributes the space
between words and letters so that, apart from a few special cases, the
text appears to be continuous.

A quick google turned up the following, which I agree with:

<http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/publicwebsite/public_textjustify.hcsp>

"..instead of the eye being able to move smoothly along the line of
text, it has to move in "fits and starts", searching for and jumping to
the start of each word."

A few hundred years experience in the print media has resulted in the
almost universal use of justified text. I think we can agree that the
screen versus paper argument on the site you quote is fallacious so we
are left with their, and presumably your, argument that current
browsers are unable to match Linotype in justifying text. I disagree
and I am satisfied that the current versions of both IE and Firefox
are capable of producing satisfactory justified text.

Please leave a blank line between the quoted material and your reply;
otherwise it is hard to find what you wrote.

Just for you, but my news reader distinguishes between quoted material
and the reply by using a number of ">" characters to mark the quotes.
In addition it displays all the quoted material in a different colour.
Maybe you should consider changing your news client.

 

[Bergamot]

A few hundred years experience in the print media has resulted in the
almost universal use of justified text.

In case you forgot: web != print

I am satisfied that the current versions of both IE and Firefox
are capable of producing satisfactory justified text.

Well, I'm not.
http://www.bergamotus.ws/screenshots/profectus.png

Or more specifically, justified text in a narrow column pretty much
sucks, but it's worse at my larger-than-average default text size than
with smaller type. It's tolerable (for me) on wider columns *only* if
the paragraphs are short.

Just for you, but my news reader distinguishes between quoted material
and the reply by using a number of ">" characters to mark the quotes.
In addition it displays all the quoted material in a different colour.

So does mine, but a blank space between greatly improves readability.

Maybe you should consider changing your news client.

Maybe you should consider other people.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

This is _not_ justified text. Proper justified text does not routinely
produce arbitrary spacing between words. It distributes the space
between words and letters so that, apart from a few special cases, the
text appears to be continuous.

In a book - in print media. My web browsers do not place any spacing
between your words. How wide is your browser window? Try reducing its
width to 900 px or so. Using Firefox 3 and the latest Opera - only
spaces between words.

A few hundred years experience in the print media

Whoa. The Web is not print media.

has resulted in the almost universal use of justified text. I think we
can agree that the screen versus paper argument on the site you quote
is fallacious so we are left with their, and presumably your,
argument that current browsers are unable to match Linotype in
justifying text. I disagree and I am satisfied that the current
versions of both IE and Firefox are capable of producing satisfactory
justified text.

Please list web browsers that justify text like that found in a book.

Just for you, but my news reader distinguishes between quoted
material and the reply by using a number of ">" characters to mark
the quotes. In addition it displays all the quoted material in a
different colour. Maybe you should consider changing your news
client.

Thank you, but all of my news readers do all you say, including the ">"
and multi-colored levels. I'm sorry you don't see the advantage to the
reader to separate paragraphs with some white space. Just like when you
use <p> elements in your HTML, where there is a default top- and bottom
margin.

 

[William Gill]

... anyone who worries about a
personal attack would be really stupid to post their URL in this
group. Amen.


I think that you are underestimating Travis. He did not assume that I
might conceivably be "targeting the top 20%" nor did he suggest that I
should have a Flash site. Even if he missed the instructions to robots
not to index the page I'm sure he would have noticed that it says
"This page is intended as a record of the films we have seen". That's
an audience of four aged film goers plus, of course, dorayme whose
film crits are always welcome.

I didn't mean to suggest that either you or Travis were assuming your
site was targeting that demographic. What I was trying to point out was
that someone who regularly frequents "bright, colorful, flashy" places,
may be more turned off by "great quantities of gray." I have clients
that are into modern art and clients that are funeral homes, my color
schemes cover the gamut. Gray may be as foreign and offensive to
Travis's eyes as some pseudo-psychedelic sites are to mine. My point
was, you know Travis (somewhat), and you know your intended audience.
You need to decide how to weight whatever he says. Travis was just
saying "this is how I see it.", not "This is what I think you are aiming
for and this is where you missed."

Myself, I have debated with Travis from time to time, and respect his
perspective. That doesn't mean I adopt it. It means digest it, and
take from it as much or as little as I deem appropriate.

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

Thank you, but all of my news readers do all you say, including the ">"
and multi-colored levels.

Mine uses a "|" but I have added a user stylesheet that set different
pale background colors for each level of depth in the quotes. I have
found it useful for some of the really long-winded threads that seem to
occur here...

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Mine uses a "|"

Though normally accepted, that would be a non-standard quoting
character... ;-)
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote3.html

 

[Bergamot]

Though normally accepted, that would be a non-standard quoting
character... ;-)

Actually, it's the default for Thunderbird/Seamonkey to use a colored
bar/border on the left rather than ">". There are a couple hidden prefs
that need changing to switch it back to ">".

I disabled the bar long ago.

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

Actually, it's the default for Thunderbird/Seamonkey to use a colored
bar/border on the left rather than ">". There are a couple hidden prefs
that need changing to switch it back to ">".

I disabled the bar long ago.

Yes, it is actually a border on the blockquote[type=cite] The ">"
actually used, just not viewed. I don't find the color bar that
distracting, rather less that multiple ">>>>>>>>>" when quoting gets deep

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
Jonathan N. Little wrote:

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
Thank you, but all of my news readers do all you say, including the
">" and multi-colored levels.
Mine uses a "|"

Though normally accepted, that would be a non-standard quoting
character... ;-)

Actually, it's the default for Thunderbird/Seamonkey to use a colored
bar/border on the left rather than ">". There are a couple hidden
prefs that need changing to switch it back to ">".

I disabled the bar long ago.

Yes, it is actually a border on the blockquote[type=cite] The ">"
actually used, just not viewed. I don't find the color bar that
distracting, rather less that multiple ">>>>>>>>>" when quoting gets deep

Isn't all of that interpretation by the Moz-based client?

Yes, I believe so. The standard ">" is transmitted in the post.

In that, the
prefs changes (usually in userContent.css) are local and the quote
character sent by the Mozilla app is still standard? Hey, could be
wrong but I think that's the way it works.

Yes, I think so, because of you change the userContent.css (which I did
to get my alternating background colors) the *appearance* of the quoted
text changes, the content is not rewritten...

 

[Patricia Aldoraz]

... If I were looking for
movie sites and came across yours I would imediatally leave because I
would consider the quality of the content matched the quality of the
site.  

Presumably because you are a little wooden, simple minded, mean
sprited, irritable as a matter of course?

 

[Patricia Aldoraz]

DavidSegallwrote:


Seemingly, because you asked for opinions...  :-/

You misunderstand the cutting nature of the OP's "Why?". It was more
a comment than a question, perhaps you were fooled by the question
mark?

 

[Travis Newbury]

Presumably because you are a little wooden, simple minded, mean
sprited, irritable as a matter of course?

Nope, because I am Travis Newbury, and that's the way I like to surf
the web.

 

[Neredbojias]

Presumably because you are a little wooden, simple minded, mean
sprited, irritable as a matter of course?

Aw, you should show more charity. Who knows, Travis might one of them
really ugly guys who make everybody throw up and have no friends
because of their disgustingness. Or maybe one of his testicles never
dropped and he's in constant pain in the middle.

Judge not lest ye be judged, harpe!

 

[Travis Newbury]

Aw, you should show more charity.  Who knows, Travis might one of them
really ugly guys who make everybody throw up and have no friends
because of their disgustingness.  Or maybe one of his testicles never
dropped and he's in constant pain in the middle.

thanks Nere,

People don't realize the pressure I am under each day to meet the
expectations of my many readers. You now one time, just once, I would
like to hear a few kind words. Is that too much to ask? I just want
to be respected. I want to be loved. My mother (the stinking bar
whore) never loved me.

Can I not have a moment of peace or do I have to strangle another
hooker???

 

[William Gill]

Nope, because I am Travis Newbury, and that's the way I like to surf
the web.

Travis,

You do realize that by your (in my opinion uncharacteristic) curtness
you have surrendered your right to an opinion?

How can we craft a world of peace, love and understanding if we allow
that kind off behavior to go unchecked. I hope you see the error of
your ways.

On a serious, but way off topic note. I have to dust off my Flash
(circa MX 2004) for a small project. In the past we had discussed
advances that minimize bandwidth impact/problems. I'm not sure that is
technology based or coding methodology based. Can you direct me to a
couple references that will help with my glacial pace learning curve?

 

[Neredbojias]

thanks Nere,

People don't realize the pressure I am under each day to meet the
expectations of my many readers.

See, that's the secret. My readers have no expectations; ergo, I am
under no pressure.

You now one time, just once, I would
like to hear a few kind words. Is that too much to ask? I just want
to be respected. I want to be loved.

Um, do you have any money?

My mother (the stinking bar whore) never loved me.

She might have known you would grow up to like Flash.

Can I not have a moment of peace or do I have to strangle another
hooker???

You'd probably be better off choking a chicken. At least it would be
less noisy.

 

[David Segall]

You now one time, just once, I would
like to hear a few kind words. Is that too much to ask? I just want
to be respected.

I have already shown you the way and I almost used kind words. People
come back to this group time and again to be insulted and they
respect, or at least tolerate, the poster who insulted them because
they receive expert advice on how to improve their web site.

You have claimed some expertise in designing web pages. If you can
explain what is wrong with a web page design in terms that a
technician who has no appreciation of design can understand you will
be a hero of alt.html. You can include all the insults you feel like
but you will probably find you don't need them once you can translate
your visual offence at bad web design into practical advice.

I want to be loved.

One day, I see you and Jukka Korpela walking into the sunset hand in
hand but you must learn his talent for clear, technical analysis
first.

 

[Travis Newbury]

One day, I see you and Jukka Korpela walking into the sunset hand in
hand but you must learn his talent for clear, technical analysis
first.

Hey, as long as he's a bottom who cares...

 

[dorayme]

You have claimed some expertise in designing web pages.

Cough, splutter, ... there goes the coffee...

 

[dorayme]

Yes, I get the message and I promise I will fix it as soon as I have
completed my 2006-2007 tax return which is currently my most pressing
task!

I get the feeling that you have missed or under noticed rf's points
contained in:

"I only saw the "effect" because you pointed it out and then I had to
look carefully at the actors to determine where they are looking."

and

"Didn't pick that at all, except as per the comment above. Just a bunch
of people I have seen in movies.

"Are you sure you are not trying to inject something into your viewers
experience that you personally experience because that is what you were
thinking when you produced the collage?"

I mention this because I was thinking rather the same thing. It disturbs
me a little that rf might be reading my mind. I do the mind reading
around here, thank you very much!

(btw David, I saw Grand Torino and Revolution Road" recently, both good,
the latter quite simply brilliant (an absolute credit to the director
and cast))

(btw2. Never mind the reviewers you mention, I think it is time to have
dorayme listed on your site for each film. You only have to ask. And
please start by giving Poppy an extra star.)