Advice to a Junior in High School?

[Chad Netzer]

If guns were such a overriding factor why is it the UK has as high
if not higher rate of gun related violence than the US?

You still haven't responded to the rebuttals of this statement. On the
face of it, it appears made up. Can you explain?

 

[Steve Lamb]

You still haven't responded to the rebuttals of this statement. On the
face of it, it appears made up. Can you explain?

Because it was worded incorrectly and is, in essence, as worded,
indefensible. Quite frankly I don't have the time or patience to
discuss the issue further in a PYTHON newsgroup.

 

[Bengt Richter]

What you've all missed is that violence still happens. The

Are you talking to me? ;-) (when you say "all")

If you read my post, you will note that I didn't say you should not be allowed
to make the choice of owning a gun. I just suggested (indirectly at that) that
maybe we should regulate ownership and operation of firearms at least as well as
we do cars.

I suggested that this might have a good influence on the odds of bad things happening.
I didn't say I expected them to stop happening. In fact, I said/wrote
"""
You seem to be hoping that education and attitude (which you don't mention a way of
improving, enforcing, or QA-ing) will prevent all the temporary quasi-insanities that
normally reasonable humans are capable of.
"""

I suggested that a risk management approach might be reasonable. Risks vary, as I also
mentioned. I understand what happens in one's mind if one receives believable threats
of bodily harm, and my sympathies if it has happened to you. I understand that there
are contexts where arming oneself is rational, just as there are contexts where wearing
a parachute is rational. You have to calculate your own odds. There is a non-zero
probablility that you'll be pushed off a high place where a parachute would do you some good.
Or jumping might be part of your job.

Anyway, try not to be in the wrong place during thunderstorms etc., and never point a banana
at an armed person, not even a police officer you know ;-)
(well, never say never. Someone probably has bluffed their way out of a bad spot with
a banana. But how many got called on it is another thing to consider ;-)

Human life structured mainly according to fears is a kind of hell. It is certainly not
freedom. We must be careful that our curative measures don't contribute to the disease.

Enough OT ;-/

Regards,
Bengt Richter

 

[Asun Friere]

If guns were such a overriding factor why is it the UK has as high
if not higher rate of gun related violence than the US? For that matter
why is it in several other European nations (Netherlands and Switzerland
IIRC) where there is a legal requirement for all males over a certain
age to be armed (standing militia) that there is so little gun related
violence?

When are people going to learn, it ain't the guns, its the education
and attitude surrounding them. It isn't guns that are the problem, it's
ignorance of guns thats the problem.

I didn't realise that gun-ownerhsip was mandatory in the Netherlands,
but as far as Switzerland is concerned the requirement is to be a
member of the armed forces. Perhaps this is the way to cut US
fire-arms deaths. All gun owners will have to join the Army, or the
National Guard at least, that way they can be educated in their
correct use, thereby substantially reducing accidental fire-arms
deaths, which in any case seem to make a higher contribution than
outright homocide. Maybe they can also be taught that they kill only
on command?

What I'm trying to say, of course, is that comparing gun-ownership in
Switzerland, where it comes as part of being put under military
discpline, with gun ownership in the US, is comparing apples to
oranges.

And remember, thermonuclear devices don't kill people! People do.

 

[Nick Vargish]

Do this simple test. Get an egg timer (or any other timing device).
Now set it to 4, maybe 5 minutes. Now lock yourself in the closet.

Counter-test: Imagine your seven-year-old son finding your gun and
shooting and killing your five-year-old daughter while you're working
in your study.

That scenario is much more likely, statistically speaking, than the
absurd home invasion fantasy you posted.

Nick

 

[Al Kirke]

Counter-test: Imagine your seven-year-old son finding your gun and
shooting and killing your five-year-old daughter while you're working
in your study.

Impossible. The son had been taught safe gun handling on
the pistol range w/ a .22 starting at aged five, and would
come and tell you that firearm had not been safely stored.

Al

 

[Asun Friere]

Impossible. The son had been taught safe gun handling on
the pistol range w/ a .22 starting at aged five, and would
come and tell you that firearm had not been safely stored.

Al

Why is it impossible for someone who has been taught safe gun handling
to shoot and kill someone else? Do they use aversion therapy or
something?

 

[yaipa h.]

Lulu,

Some how I get this feeling this is secretly YOUR plan to
re-acquire the United States... Sometime after national
"Jones Town Day in May." ;^)

Cheers,

--Alan

 

[Skip Montanaro]

Al> Impossible. The son had been taught safe gun handling on the pistol
Al> range w/ a .22 starting at aged five, and would come and tell you
Al> that firearm had not been safely stored.

This sort of thing still happens (it hits the news whenever such a shooting
occurs), so clearly all seven-year-olds who live in houses with guns are not
being trained to handle and respect firearms.

Skip

 

[Al Kirke]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Skip Montanaro" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
To: "Al Kirke" <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: OT: Americans love their guns

Al> Impossible. The son had been taught safe gun handling on the pistol
Al> range w/ a .22 starting at aged five, and would come and tell you
Al> that firearm had not been safely stored.

This sort of thing still happens (it hits the news whenever such a shooting
occurs),

You're correct in that this sort of thing hits the news. What doesn't
hit the news are the instances when handguns are used for personal
defense. John Lott wrote a whole book about liberal news bias
aganst those instances.

http://www.wmsa.net/people/john_lott/030822_bias_star.htm

so clearly all seven-year-olds who live in houses with guns are not
being trained to handle and respect firearms.

MY children were taught to handle firearms safely beginning age 5.
Are yours? My son got his mini-size .22 bolt-action atage 9. The
son and one daughter expect to apply for a Texas CHL when
they reach their twenty first birthdays.

But the biggest difference that household firearms make in
society is in the hot burglary statistics. A "hot" burglary is one
that occurs when the family is home. . In England more than
half of the burglaries are "hot". In the U.S. that statistic is
about 13 percent. The U.S. burglars tell that they go to
great pains to avoid householders, not because the police
will be summoned, but because of the risk of getting shot.
English buglars don't care much whether you're home or not.

http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/1/17/105209

A current judicial move concerns the 2nd Amendment. 5th
Circuit in New Orleans says its an individual right to keep
and bear arms, 9th Circuit in San Francisco (where else?)
says the right belongs to the national guard. This conflict
will reach the SCOTUS in the next year or so.

Cheers,

Al

 

[Grzegorz Staniak]

You're correct in that this sort of thing hits the news. What doesn't
hit the news are the instances when handguns are used for personal
defense. John Lott wrote a whole book about liberal news bias
aganst those instances.

http://www.wmsa.net/people/john_lott/030822_bias_star.htm

I think it's a mistake to cite Lott here. As an extreme libertarian he
has shown his own bias a couple of times. His famous "More guns, less
crime" findings has been challenged recently (see e.g.
http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/alerts/reader/0,2061,562387,00.html),
and he could not produce any evidence whatsoever that his telephone
survey on the crime-repelling effects of gun carrying has been actually
conducted.

[---]

But the biggest difference that household firearms make in
society is in the hot burglary statistics.

Another one is that half of the burglars serving time in US prisons
admit to have stolen a gun at least once. That means a lot of guns in
the hands of criminals.

[---]

A current judicial move concerns the 2nd Amendment. 5th
Circuit in New Orleans says its an individual right to keep
and bear arms, 9th Circuit in San Francisco (where else?)
says the right belongs to the national guard. This conflict
will reach the SCOTUS in the next year or so.

It is a myth that the 2nd Amendment warrants "an individual right to
keep and bear arms":

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issuebriefs/second.asp

A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed."

Pro-gun activists have made it a habit to omit the first, crucial part
of the above sentence. Nonetheless, it is one of the well-established
facts od the US constitutional law that gun-restricting laws are NOT in
conflict with the 2nd Amendment. Actually, AFAIR no such law has ever
been overturned on constitutional grounds.

 

[Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters]

|I think it's a mistake to cite Lott here. As an extreme libertarian he
|has shown his own bias a couple of times. His famous "More guns, less
|crime" findings has been challenged recently (see e.g.
|http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/alerts/reader/0,2061,562387,00.html

As well as Lott's tendency to outright falsify data, which Staniak
cites, Lott is pretty much an unabashed White Supremicist ideologue,
e.g.:

http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/wholott.htm

He's actually quite a nut in a lot of ways other than that, for example
arguing that dioxin is harmless to people; or that wealthy people should
not be punished for committing violent crimes, only poor people.

Yours, Lulu...

--
mertz@ | The specter of free information is haunting the `Net! All the
gnosis | powers of IP- and crypto-tyranny have entered into an unholy
..cx | alliance...ideas have nothing to lose but their chains. Unite
| against "intellectual property" and anti-privacy regimes!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters]

|I think it's a mistake to cite Lott here. As an extreme libertarian he
|has shown his own bias a couple of times. His famous "More guns, less
|crime" findings has been challenged recently (see e.g.
|http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/alerts/reader/0,2061,562387,00.html

As well as Lott's tendency to outright falsify data, which Staniak
cites, Lott is pretty much an unabashed White Supremicist ideologue,
e.g.:

http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/wholott.htm

He's actually quite a nut in a lot of ways other than that, for example
arguing that dioxin is harmless to people; or that wealthy people should
not be punished for committing violent crimes, only poor people.

Yours, Lulu...

--
mertz@ | The specter of free information is haunting the `Net! All the
gnosis | powers of IP- and crypto-tyranny have entered into an unholy
..cx | alliance...ideas have nothing to lose but their chains. Unite
| against "intellectual property" and anti-privacy regimes!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Skip Montanaro]

Al> MY children were taught to handle firearms safely beginning age 5.
Al> Are yours?

No, we're more intelligent than that. We have no guns in our house.

Why is this on c.l.py anyway?

Skip

 

[Daniel Dittmar]

Why is this on c.l.py anyway?

Wasn't 'gun' just an allegory for using Perl?

Daniel

 

[Nick Vargish]

Wasn't 'gun' just an allegory for using Perl?

+1 QOTW.

Nick

 

[Al Kirke]

Al> MY children were taught to handle firearms safely beginning age 5.
Al> Are yours?

No, we're more intelligent than that. We have no guns in our house.

Why is this on c.l.py anyway?

It shouldn't be on the python group.. It was off-topic and I
should not have replied.

But in winding up, the fact remains that there is and has always
been a violent criminal element in society, and none of us
expect this to change. That being the case, without handguns
is there any protection against those elements?

The only statistics I know of that compare convictions of Texas
carry-concealed license holders to convictions in the general
population are from the Texas Department of Public Safety.

http://www.tsra.com/DPS_convictions.htm

About a year ago a constable pulled me over for speeding. The
procedure for a driver is to hold both his drivers license and his
concealed handgun license out the window for the officer to
observe as he approaches. Texas police are in general comforted
by the appearance of concealed handgun licenses, because
these guarantee that a convicted felon is not driving that car.

My (very) pretty daughter was in the car, and as the constable
was writing out the ticket, he spent some time telling my daughter
that the world is nastier now that it once was, and that she
should seriously consider getting her own CHL.

Remember, when you and your family are driving late at night,
that you're only a timing belt away from meeting new and
exciting people.

Cheers,

Al

 

[Nick Vargish]

It shouldn't be on the python group.. It was off-topic and I
should not have replied.

[ More pro-gun rhetoric snipped. ]

And yet, you are still determined to push your agenda, despite your
admission that it's OT and you should not have replied.

Real nice.

Nick

 

[collegebabe2004]

wow! Aren't we getting ahead of ourselves? Well, I'm glad you are
beefing up your college knowledge but let's just sit back for a minute
and breathe..........there, feel better? Now, listen. When I was a
freshman and sophomore in high school I was so sure I wanted to be an
artist and attend one of the most highly recognized and expensive art
schools in the country. I wanted to go to college back east away from
my parents. Now I'm a psychology major in community college and I want
to attend UCLA! First of all, NEVER SETTLE FOR LESS when it comes to
your major. Do what it is true to your heart and never let people say
you can't! You can double major if you want to be on the safe side.
Compsci isn't an easy thing to do as you know and it's a highly
regarded profffession! By the time you graduate college, the world
could be a completely different place. But let's just worry about here
and now. If you think too much about the future IT WILL DRIVE YOU
CRAZY! Trust me, you are doing everything right so far. I applaud
your effort but relax and everything will fall into place eventually!
I would suggest taking Japanese because you will have to work with them
eventually if you do decide to choose compsci as your proffesion.
Margaux

 

[Stephen Waterbury]

wow! Aren't we getting ahead of ourselves? ...

Well I'm like "yuhhh!" Like, you know, Japanese ...
oh I am *so* shur!