Algebra Rizing

[Gildas]

Have you seen the code behind the math editor? Obviously a port to JS
would be worthwhile when there are no other problems to solve, or if the
round-trip itself turns out to be a show-stopper. But what I am sure you
have not considered is the typing speed of a student doing Algebra. I am
also sure that you believe "texting" from cell phones will never catch
on because it is so hard typing in the messages.

Keep up the good work.

kt

<what a bunch of losers>

Couldn't you at least not send a XHR each time a shift key is
repeated ? It's quite annoying to see dozen of "blank" requests when I
try to write a number...

Also, is it *really* impossible to defer those XHR in order to group
keystrokes ?

 

[Alessio Stalla]

Right, which is why no one is using JS libraries but me. <sigh>

Which popular web applications use qooxdoo? Or smartclient?

Imho, JS libraries for "RIAs" are complete bullshit. They basically
rewrite everything down to the layout manager, not leveraging the
browser at all... and in a language, JavaScript, which is interpreted
and single-threaded! If you only use the browser as a canvas to paint
on, you'd get much better results with a Java applet. Or Flash - I'm
biased towards Java because that's what I know, but a few competing
technologies are out there for you to choose.
JS is good for lightweight scripting, not for implementing GUI
libraries.

Just my €.02.

Cheers,
Alessio

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

Couldn't you at least not send a XHR each time a shift key is
repeated ? It's quite annoying to see dozen of "blank" requests when I
try to write a number...

Also, is it *really* impossible to defer those XHR in order to group
keystrokes ?

Have you actually looked at what the math editor does? There are some
tutorial examples you can follow on the "Typing Tutorial" tab:

http://teamalgebra.com/

You might be able to grok why the editor needs to get involved.

btw, Why are you watching XHR requests? You are supposed to be learning
Algebra. Does your ISP charge you for each?

kt

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

Which popular web applications use qooxdoo? Or smartclient?

Imho, JS libraries for "RIAs" are complete bullshit.

Is that why they work so well? Cue the Markovian Hounds...

They basically
rewrite everything down to the layout manager, not leveraging the
browser at all... and in a language, JavaScript, which is interpreted
and single-threaded!

And JIT compiled these days!! Try solving -3x-2>13 for x over here:

http://teamalgebra.com

Now tell me, was the application in fact too slow for you to do Algebra
assuming you were learning it? Or are you just arguing from general
principles? The latter is dangerous because it means burning hours to
speed things up which might not need it -- programmers guess badly at
what will be slow, and usually the problem is in the higher-order
design, not the implementation stack.

If it was too slow for you, go here and do a speed test to Washington,
DC: I get 12.43/2.10 down/up.

If you only use the browser as a canvas to paint
on, you'd get much better results with a Java applet. Or Flash - I'm
biased towards Java because that's what I know,

My heart goes out to you.

but a few competing
technologies are out there for you to choose.
JS is good for lightweight scripting, not for implementing GUI
libraries.

Ah, you /are/ working from general rules. Tsk tsk!

Your problem is that I have used qooxdoo enough to see how well it works
cross-platform and how fast I am porting a desktop application to the
web. ie, You are trying with your kind recommendation to solve a problem
that does not exist.

kt

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

Hang on...

It's quite annoying to see dozen of "blank" requests when I
try to write a number...

"dozen of"?! (guessing at the idomatic expression you meant, but even
one dozen is a problem because...): There is one xhr per digit. I doubt
you were writing a number 24 digits long.

Please explain your misreport. Be careful: this will be a commercial
product so there is liability for damages involved.*

kt

* Nah, I just killfile people making silly comments so I can concentrate
on serious folks. k

 

[Gildas]

It's quite annoying to see dozen of "blank" requests when I
try to write a number...

"dozen of"?! (guessing at the idomatic expression you meant, but even
one dozen is a problem because...): There is one xhr per digit. I doubt
you were writing a number 24 digits long.

Sorry for my bad English, I'm trying to do my best to improve it.

Please explain your misreport. Be careful: this will be a commercial
product so there is liability for damages involved.*

Use case :
Try to type a digit without numeric keyboard and without CAPS LOCK on.
Then, you'll need to press the shift key. Let's say you press shift
key one second, you have sent 20 XHR if keyrepeat is set to 20 on your
OS.

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

It's quite annoying to see dozen of "blank" requests when I
try to write a number...

"dozen of"?! (guessing at the idomatic expression you meant, but even
one dozen is a problem because...): There is one xhr per digit. I doubt
you were writing a number 24 digits long.

Sorry for my bad English, I'm trying to do my best to improve it.

Your english is fine, I just did not want to assume out of hand you
meant "dozens" when you had typed "dozen".

Use case :
Try to type a digit without numeric keyboard and without CAPS LOCK on.

I reach up to the fourth row of my keyboard and type the digit without
using any modifier keys.

Are you using a cell phone to do Algebra? That is so cool!

Then, you'll need to press the shift key. Let's say you press shift
key one second, you have sent 20 XHR if keyrepeat is set to 20 on your
OS.

Oh, that. If you turn off your XHR viewer do you notice a problem? Does
your ISP charge you per XHR? Why are you watching XHRs? Are you just
looking for a reason to get annoyed?

I can prolly avoid that by watching for key-up and key-down events and
then keeping track internally (which is how my app works when talking to
tcl/tk). Hmm, maybe I can Just Filter Them on the client--I think the
modifiers state comes along with the actual key event.

Note that this is not an exercise in making comp.lang.javascript happy,
this is an exercise in improving math proficiency by moving a
little-known desktop application for Windows to the Web. It seems quite
fast to me, and the only people who say it is slow also turn out to be
library haters whose reports cannot be reproduced. Plonk.

If it makes you feel better, performance is indeed a mission-critical
concern in my mind and I have my eye out for problems. An initial big
concern was indeed the per-key round-trip. So far I have seen zero
problems. Your pain is self-inflicted: you are watching XHRs for no reason.

kt

 

[Alessio Stalla]

I'm waiting for an answer...

Is that why they work so well? Cue the Markovian Hounds...

Evidently I don't believe they work that well...

And JIT compiled these days!! Try solving -3x-2>13 for x over here:

   http://teamalgebra.com

Now tell me, was the application in fact too slow for you to do Algebra
assuming you were learning it? Or are you just arguing from general
principles? The latter is dangerous because it means burning hours to
speed things up which might not need it -- programmers guess badly at
what will be slow, and usually the problem is in the higher-order
design, not the implementation stack.

I'm not talking specifically about Algebra, and I'm not talking only
about speed either, but about general user experience.

If it was too slow for you, go here and do a speed test to Washington,
DC: I get 12.43/2.10 down/up.


My heart goes out to you.

I'm not saying Java is perfect, far from it, just - in my humble
opinion - better than Flash and Silverlight. We all know that if the
browser was written in Lisp we would have far less problems

Ah, you /are/ working from general rules. Tsk tsk!

Your problem is that I have used qooxdoo enough to see how well it works
cross-platform and how fast I am porting a desktop application to the
web. ie, You are trying with your kind recommendation to solve a problem
that does not exist.

The problem is precisely "porting a desktop application to the web".
That cannot be done, period. Not without either changing the
application to embrace the "web way", or using the browser as a mere
deployment tool, not a platform. Heavy use of AJAX + redoing a whole
GUI library in JS just doesn't cut it, at least today. Maybe in a few
years browsers will evolve, new protocols will be developed, and it
will indeed be possible to have desktop-like applications on the web,
but not today.

Alessio

 

[Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn]

You do not even know what my math editor does and are smart enough to
talk about it anyway? Will you be my friend? i could learn so
much....PWUAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAA!!!!!!

[...]
Go away and stop wasting our time with your brain problems!

+-------------------+ .:\:\:/:/:.
| PLEASE DO NOT | :.:\:\:/:/:.:
| FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=:
| | '=(\ 9 9 /)='
| Thank you, | ( (_) )
| Management | /`-vvv-'\
+-------------------+ / \
| | @@@ / /|,,,,,|\ \
| | @@@ /_// /^\ \\_\
@x@@x@ | | |/ WW( ( ) )WW
\||||/ | | \| __\,,\ /,,/__
\||/ | | | (______Y______)
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
==================================================================


F'up2 0d

 

[Gildas]

I reach up to the fourth row of my keyboard and type the digit without
using any modifier keys.

Are you using a cell phone to do Algebra? That is so cool!

No I just use a french keyboard on my laptop.

Oh, that. If you turn off your XHR viewer do you notice a problem? Does
your ISP charge you per XHR? Why are you watching XHRs? Are you just
looking for a reason to get annoyed?

My ISP does not charge me per XHR. I'm watching XHRs because I'm a
developer too. Actually, if you didn't include firebug lite in your
site, I'm not sure I would have opened my developer debug tool.

I can prolly avoid that by watching for key-up and key-down events and
then keeping track internally (which is how my app works when talking to
tcl/tk). Hmm, maybe I can Just Filter Them on the client--I think the
modifiers state comes along with the actual key event. Maybe.

Note that this is not an exercise in making comp.lang.javascript happy,
this is an exercise in improving math proficiency by moving a
little-known desktop application for Windows to the Web. It seems quite
fast to me, and the only people who say it is slow also turn out to be
library haters whose reports cannot be reproduced. Plonk.

My name is Gildas, not comp.lang.javascript and it's the first time I
post here. So, I don't think I'm known as a "library hater".

If it makes you feel better, performance is indeed a mission-critical
concern in my mind and I have my eye out for problems. An initial big
concern was indeed the per-key round-trip. So far I have seen zero
problems. Your pain is self-inflicted: you are watching XHRs for no reason.

I just wanted to help you in order to improve your application.

BTW, the alt key does not seem to work (maybe a french laptop keyboard
issue) so I'm unable to type the last formula in the tutorial.

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

I'm waiting for an answer...


Evidently I don't believe they work that well...


I'm not talking specifically about Algebra, and I'm not talking only
about speed either, but about general user experience.


I'm not saying Java is perfect, far from it, just - in my humble
opinion - better than Flash and Silverlight. We all know that if the
browser was written in Lisp we would have far less problems


The problem is precisely "porting a desktop application to the web".
That cannot be done, period. Not without either changing the
application to embrace the "web way", or using the browser as a mere
deployment tool, not a platform. Heavy use of AJAX + redoing a whole
GUI library in JS just doesn't cut it, at least today. Maybe in a few
years browsers will evolve, new protocols will be developed, and it
will indeed be possible to have desktop-like applications on the web,
but not today.

Well, that's the concern, isn't it? But the reason I gave it a try was
that I saw how responsive certain web apps had gotten. So I gave it a
try and it is working, and I guess you know it because you have not
admitted that this site is highly perofrmant:

http://teamalgebra.com/

And when you say "I am not talking about Algebra" then you need a good
plonking because the whole point with performance is that we are not
doing abstract applications, we are doing /this/ application and I
explained that so you are just being dense.

kt

 

[Alessio Stalla]

Well, that's the concern, isn't it? But the reason I gave it a try was
that I saw how responsive certain web apps had gotten. So I gave it a
try and it is working, and I guess you know it because you have not
admitted that this site is highly perofrmant:

   http://teamalgebra.com/

And when you say "I am not talking about Algebra" then you need a good
plonking because the whole point with performance is that we are not
doing abstract applications, we are doing /this/ application and I
explained that so you are just being dense.

Well, if you want to talk specifically about Algebra... I must say
that I only tried it from a corporate network that sucks badly, but
for me it's very slow - not particularly the load time but the
responsiveness. But the worst part is not really that, it's that the
GUI is not very usable, cut and paste don't work, and the overall feel
is that of really poor interactivity. I speculate that it all comes
from qooxdoo, even if you're desperately trying to convince me that
it's all your fault...

Alessio

 

[Peder O. Klingenberg]

It seems quite fast to me, and the only people who say it is slow also
turn out to be library haters whose reports cannot be
reproduced.

I'm reading this in comp.lang.lisp, and have no opinion on js libraries,
or indeed js at all. I tried your site the other day, and found it
painfully slow to load. This was at work, where we have a 100Mbit pipe
to the relevant transit provider, but I'm located in Europe, so the
latency might be a bit worse than in NYC.

I didn't time it, but I managed to switch to another virtual desktop,
read a mail, and switch back before the page rendered. It popped up a
firebug console with lots of scary-looking messages that I ignored.
Typing was bearable, but only just, there was a quite noticable lag
before anything rendered. I sometimes had trouble editing text I wrote,
and I couln't type < or > at all. I clicked the "solved" button
prematurely, and got an error message telling me to do more work, but I
was unable to return to editing the text.

This was on my normal work PC, an old Ubuntu install, 64 bit Firefox
3.0.something.

I tried at home now to see if the slowness was reproducible. "At home"
means MacOSX, Firefox 3.6.4, 25Mbit net connection. The slowness was
not reproducible here, because the page failed to render at all. The
firebug panel appeared, this time without scary messages, but the rest
of the page was a uniform, boring gray.

I know cells is cool and all, but I wasn't exactly blown away by this
demo, sorry.

....Peder...

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

Gildas wrote:
It's quite annoying to see dozen of "blank" requests when I
try to write a number...
"dozen of"?! (guessing at the idomatic expression you meant, but even
one dozen is a problem because...): There is one xhr per digit. I doubt
you were writing a number 24 digits long.

(snip)

Use case :
Try to type a digit without numeric keyboard and without CAPS LOCK on.
Then, you'll need to press the shift key. Let's say you press shift
key one second, you have sent 20 XHR if keyrepeat is set to 20 on your
OS.

The shift key will only be necessary on keyboard layouts like the French
one. English or American layouts normally have the numbers available in
the upper row without modifiers, and require shift for symbols like "!"
or "(".

The shift key shouldn't cause any repeating events.

I believe I have. This is qooxdoo sending those events, their mileage
may differ.

That doesn't mean the editor is usable in its current state. It's
trivially easy to leave it in an unresponsive state by accident.

No, that means it is unusable until it breaks, as I explained up front.
Get it? Meanwhile, intellectually honest people are interested by my
approach to smart math editing and talk about that.


This

happened to me twice in a row - in the "typing tutorial", no less. My
motivation to file a detailed bug report is rather low,

I am encouraging folks not to spend any energy on bug reports because I
probably already know they are there or will find them soon enough. That
is not what I am doing now.

"His kennyness" said he doesn't want help with his application, and he
quite obviously doesn't want to discuss its JavaScript related aspects.

Nonsense. Most responses have been pretty useless, all motivated by
library hatred. Get a life.

PS: I just saw Kenneth Tilton's reply about the unnecessary XHR
requests. Performance is "mission-critical" for him, and the solution to
the problem is to close your eyes (don't look at the requests)? Priceless.

The rice is on time and the challenge (not too hard) is knowing what to
work on first. Performance is outstanding and you want me to work on
that now? Priceless.

kt

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

No I just use a french keyboard on my laptop.

My ISP does not charge me per XHR. I'm watching XHRs because I'm a
developer too. Actually, if you didn't include firebug lite in your
site, I'm not sure I would have opened my developer debug tool.

I should prolly take FireBug and all the debogging logging out next time.

My name is Gildas, not comp.lang.javascript and it's the first time I
post here. So, I don't think I'm known as a "library hater".

OK. But you are actually annoyed by meaningless XHRs? I am reminded of
someone who complained that my desktop app was 40mb. When asked, he said
it had taken twenty seconds to download. And the problem is?

So you are right, people get bothered quite a bit by what I call
"machine empathy". They imagine themselves running back and forth 3000
miles carrying envelopes with XHRs inside and become outraged. Um, no,
as far as I can tell it is not worth addressing just yet, though
certainly at some point it should be addressed if only because it is
indeed unnecessary.

Thanks for the well-meant report.

BTW, the alt key does not seem to work (maybe a french laptop keyboard
issue) so I'm unable to type the last formula in the tutorial.

Thanks again for the report, but to anyone out there, please relax on
the bug reports. I have prominently announced that the thing is known to
be broken and incomplete and is being shared only for what does work
(which will expand in Algebra tutorial functionality before anything
else, except for tree bugs that make the tutorial forest impossible to see).

kt

 

[Gregor Kofler]

Am 2010-07-02 10:28, Kenneth Tilton meinte:

[whining snipped]

Pathetic.

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

Am 2010-07-02 10:28, Kenneth Tilton meinte:

[whining snipped]

Pathetic.

You yobbos really can't stand it when someone stands up to you.

Face it, you are finished, your hand-crafted html skills are obsolete.
Learn qooxdoo or Dojo fast, the workd is passing you by.

hth, kt

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

I'm reading this in comp.lang.lisp, and have no opinion on js libraries,
or indeed js at all. I tried your site the other day, and found it
painfully slow to load. This was at work, where we have a 100Mbit pipe
to the relevant transit provider, but I'm located in Europe, so the
latency might be a bit worse than in NYC.

A bit worse than in NYC would be 5s instead of the 4s I get.

I didn't time it, but I managed to switch to another virtual desktop,
read a mail, and switch back before the page rendered.

What's your speakeasy.net timing to DC?

Is that a 32-bit computer? Tho my old XP does fine.

It popped up a
firebug console with lots of scary-looking messages that I ignored.

You did the right thing.

Typing was bearable, but only just, there was a quite noticable lag
before anything rendered.

I see none, no matter how fast I type. On any computer or browser except
Conquerer and Opera (but ISTR the latter not doing well with those
logging messages I left behind.

I sometimes had trouble editing text I wrote,
and I couln't type < or > at all. I clicked the "solved" button
prematurely, and got an error message telling me to do more work, but I
was unable to return to editing the text.

Oh, I thought I fixed that. Maybe it is in the next release.

This was on my normal work PC, an old Ubuntu install, 64 bit Firefox
3.0.something.

I tried at home now to see if the slowness was reproducible. "At home"
means MacOSX, Firefox 3.6.4, 25Mbit net connection. The slowness was
not reproducible here, because the page failed to render at all. The
firebug panel appeared, this time without scary messages, but the rest
of the page was a uniform, boring gray.

The whole application went down tools. I restarted a couple of hours agao.

I know cells is cool and all, but I wasn't exactly blown away by this
demo, sorry.

You were not demoing Cells.

kt

 

[Gregor Kofler]

Am 2010-07-02 20:55, Kenneth Tilton meinte:

You yobbos really can't stand it when someone stands up to you.

Face it, you are finished, your hand-crafted html skills are obsolete.
Learn qooxdoo or Dojo fast, the workd is passing you by.

hth, kt

Indeed. The incompetence oozing from your "project" and the underlying
library seems utterly threatening. That said, why don't you bugger off
and troll somewhere else?

 

[Gildas]

Thanks for the well-meant report.

You're welcome.

Thanks again for the report, but to anyone out there, please relax on
the bug reports.

Ok, I won't report bugs anymore.

Nevertheless, you should maybe warning the user that if he presses a
key more than 10 seconds, he may inadvertently do a DoS.