Are there any Free C Standard Documents ?

[Randy Howard]

That's Catch-22. In order to become a programmer you need the requisite
information but you can't afford the requisite information unless you're
already making the pay a programmer gets, under the particular
socio-economic circumstances of the OP.

The freely available on-line comp.lang.c FAQ is arguably more useful to
the student wishing to learn C programming than the full-blown standard.
Later on, if C turns out to be a language they spend a LOT of time using,
then having access to a copy of the standard will be beneficial. It is
not required however. Membership in this newsgroup, which does not cost
anything itself, is probably at least as valuable, in that the "lawyeritis"
wording in parts of the standard gets debated and explained here in a
way not available with the standard alone. This method would also avoid
the financial problem entirely in the short term.

I get it that this is a game fraught with contradictions. It's obvious
that some people are not interested in other people getting requisite
information & that they're perfectly happy with a set up that benefits
those who already have the advantage.

*sigh* It's not about that, but your claim is far easier to make than
a factual one. I do not believe that you must have your own copy of the
C99 standard in your pocket to be a successful C programmer. I know
at least a few dozen, if not more, that have probably never even held
one in their hand, yet are quite successful.

 

[Alan Balmer]

A lot of folks aren't interested in the C Standard ;-)

Some try that and find a job in the US. Average yearly income in India
is US$ 350.

For programmers? The first hit in a google search for "indian
programmer salary" tells me that salaries are about 22000 - 35000
rupees per month. The same page says that 35000 rupees is about 740
USD. This was from March 2003.

 

[Ben Pfaff]

Personally I've given up on Dan Pop. Although he knows a lot
about C, he's far too unfriendly and self-centered. I've been
happier reading clc since I put him in my killfile.

 

[Alan Balmer]

AB> On 6 Jul 2004 06:44:17 -0700, (e-mail address removed)
AB> (Prafulla H)
AB> wrote:


AB> ... How much are your textbooks?

Probably pretty cheap. (At least by western standards). I know a
fellow student from Sri Lanka who had an "Eastern Economy
Edition" of a book that cost me 100 USD. He told me the price in
Rupees. It came out to around 6 USD. (Might have been less I'm
not sure). And thats not the only EEE book I've seen.

Interesting. Long enough ago that the memory is fuzzy, I spent a year
or so in South Korea. There were books available that were printed on
really cheap paper, at really cheap prices. I don't remember the name
of the source, but it was some kind of international program to
distribute affordable textbooks. These were current books on a wide
range of technical subjects.

 

[Pete Newman]

It would make a lot more sense for a library to buy 1 copy of the
standard so that dozens of students could share access to it, than
to have each buy one. If they don't buy books for a library there,
then they must obtain them somehow, or they wouldn't be libraries
at all. Whatever the process is, that seems more economical than
individual ownership. Particularly, when most people do not need
a copy of the entire C standard in their backpack 24x7.

They may not stash them in their backpacks 24x7, but they sure seem to
hold on to them for a while. I did a search on my University's
libraries which turned up 2 results. One was due back in a month, the
other this september.

This has been more than sufficient for me:
http://std.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/open/n2794/

 

[Dik T. Winter]

>
> It would make a lot more sense for a library to buy 1 copy of the
> standard so that dozens of students could share access to it, than
> to have each buy one.

When I may venture a guess, I do not think there is a single library in
the Netherlands that is accessible to a more general public than just
employees that does have a copy of the standard.

There are other books to be bought and the budget is limited.

 

[Dik T. Winter]

> On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:30:12 GMT, "Dik T. Winter" <[email protected]>
> wrote: ....
>
> For programmers? The first hit in a google search for "indian
> programmer salary" tells me that salaries are about 22000 - 35000
> rupees per month. The same page says that 35000 rupees is about 740
> USD. This was from March 2003.

I do not find that page. What I find is a yearly salary of US$ 20,000
for a *graduated* software engineer.

 

[Alan Balmer]

I do not find that page. What I find is a yearly salary of US$ 20,000
for a *graduated* software engineer.

Interesting. The same query now has the page I saw as the second hit.
http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=36737

I don't vouch for its accuracy, it was just the first one presented. I
just didn't believe that an Indian programmer makes only $350/year

The numbers you found are considerably higher. IAC, I think a
programmer could scrounge up $18 for a tool so essential to his career
<G>.

 

[Alan Balmer]

When I may venture a guess, I do not think there is a single library in
the Netherlands that is accessible to a more general public than just
employees that does have a copy of the standard.

There are other books to be bought and the budget is limited.

In the US, public libraries often respond to requests from users. In
fact, many are happy to have such requests - they want the feedback.

 

[Dik T. Winter]

>
> Interesting. The same query now has the page I saw as the second hit.
> http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=36737

I read there that that rate is for an experienced programmer...

> I don't vouch for its accuracy, it was just the first one presented. I
> just didn't believe that an Indian programmer makes only $350/year

Neither did I, but I compare to the average income in the USA, and you
can extrapolate.

> The numbers you found are considerably higher. IAC, I think a
> programmer could scrounge up $18 for a tool so essential to his career
> <G>.

Except that the OP was not a programmer but a student. What I read is
that $18 is about 5% of the monthly income of an experienced programmer
(in the Rs 22000 bracket). Or about 20% of the monthly rent of a 2 BR
apartment. You have to see everything in perspective. And for starters
a figure of Rs 175,000 per year is quoted. The above figures appear to
be valid with 3 years experience.

 

[Dik T. Winter]

> On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:33:41 GMT, "Dik T. Winter" <[email protected]>
> wrote: ....
>
> In the US, public libraries often respond to requests from users. In
> fact, many are happy to have such requests - they want the feedback.

In the Netherlands, public libraries do not cater for technical literature.
Especially when it is expensive (as the C standard from ISO is). When they
did, they had to increase the subscription price to the library, so all users
would suffer. But I do not think there is a single university library that
has the C standard. The library of my institute (and we are a research
institute for mathematics and computer science), does not have the standard.
By special request we have the 1989 standard (and it is sitting in my room).

 

[Aslam Sheikh Durrani]

You are certainly dedicated students then. No wonder there are
so many Indian Ph.D. students here at Stanford.

And imagine...Those are just the one percent rich who give the
expensive GRE exam ,travel to the US and get in Stanford out of a
Billion Indians.
I never cease to admire the Indians.

_Aslam_ {aslam_sheikh1975[at]hotmail[dot]com}

 

[Ravi Uday]

It was well deserved, not gratuitous. Whether you agree or not.


There is also the presumption of innocence, that your reasoning is
completely ignoring. The OP may know that ANSI and ISO are selling a
printed copy and he is interested in knowing whether online copies are
not available for free. As many other standards are *legally* available
in electronic format for free, this is not *a priori* an unreasonable
assumption.

The answer happens to be no, but this doesn't make the OP a thief.

Highly off topic rant follows, read it on your own risk.

It's all too easy to judge the poor from the position of the rich.
Try to spend some time in the shoes of the poor and you'll see that all
your moral system falls apart. I'm talking from first hand experience,
BTW, and not spewing PC bullshit: I've learned C from a photocopy of a
photocopy of a ... of K&R1, so bad that it was barely readable (and I
could keep it only for 2 weeks). And during this period I couldn't
care less about IP theft and related issues: buying a copy of K&R1 was
not an option and no public library in the whole country had the book.
It was a choice between learning C and not learning C and I chose to
learn C (even if, according to Joona, I was not entitled to it).
The K&R1 publisher had nothing to win or to lose from my choice
(eventually, it had something to win, because I bought K&R2, as soon
as I had the opportunity to do it). And this was not an isolated
example, this is how people learned CS, in my country, at the time.
Today, the political constraints are gone, but the economical ones
are still in place (average monthly salary on the order of $100), so
people still learn CS this way, with a perfectly clean conscience.
Talk to them about IP theft/copyright violation/whatever and they
will laugh at you: these are abstractions they cannot afford.

So, let the Indian regulars of this group judge the poor Indian student
asking for a free copy of the C standards: they're the only ones in the
right position for doing it.

So why not somebody mail the C89 copy .. will it make a difference to the OP
or the sender or IP.

 

[Richard Bos]

This has been more than sufficient for me:
http://std.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/open/n2794/

That isn't even the _last_ public draft. You'd do better with
<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n869/>.

RIchard

 

[Gwar]

What nonsense. Don't blame your failures on others.
There are many successful programmers who do not have a copy of the
Standard. If you are not a successful programmer, the lack of a copy
of the standard is not the reason.

If it's nonsense, demonstrate that it is. I don't care how much money you
make nor how good of a programmer you are. You're WRONG to deny people
with lesser means requisite information. Requisite was the very term you
use. So, you're contradicting yourself if you signify that there is
something essential & necessary in the standard & then spin around & imply
that there isn't.

 

[Gwar]

The freely available on-line comp.lang.c FAQ is arguably more useful to
the student wishing to learn C programming than the full-blown standard.
Later on, if C turns out to be a language they spend a LOT of time using,
then having access to a copy of the standard will be beneficial. It is
not required however. Membership in this newsgroup, which does not cost
anything itself, is probably at least as valuable, in that the "lawyeritis"
wording in parts of the standard gets debated and explained here in a
way not available with the standard alone. This method would also avoid
the financial problem entirely in the short term.

Oh come on. You guys are silly. Obviously, somebody who has a copy of the
standard has a clear advantage over those who don't. & obviously, for
those around here who like to play language lawyer, this is part of that
game of being one.

 

[Gwar]

For programmers? The first hit in a google search for "indian
programmer salary" tells me that salaries are about 22000 - 35000
rupees per month. The same page says that 35000 rupees is about 740
USD. This was from March 2003.

You just got through saying that they should "find a job in which the
requisite information reflects a smaller percentage of their take home
pay". Well, how is somebody going to do a job without the requisite
information? You have to have the later before you can do the former.
IOW, you're putting the cart before the horse! Obviously, you would rather
not have this competition, but what are you going to do about it? Make
more specious arguments? The bottom line is 740 USD is a lot less than
+60000 USD.

 

[Dan Pop]

You obviously are tremendously concerned about this problem, so you
must have already sent him a copy of the book, right?

Wrong. As you already know, I have posted the URLs of freely available
documents that should be enough for his needs.

However, in the absence of such freely available documents, I would have
made my PDF of C99 available to him, for a limited period of time.

It would make a lot more sense for a library to buy 1 copy of the
standard so that dozens of students could share access to it, than
to have each buy one.

Real life is somewhat different from what you (or I) consider sensible.
How many US university libraries have a copy of the C99 standard?
For my own country, the answer is 0, they have other priorities.

Dan

 

[Dan Pop]

Let me be more specific. Stop making false accusations about others being
racially motivated in their responses simply because they said something
you disagreed with.

Whatever accusations I might have made were directed at Joona, who has
already made negative generalisations about the Indian students,
so his racial neutrality is not exactly something to be taken for granted.
And, since I don't believe in coincidences...

I know you have an ongoing war with Joona, I prefer
not to be dragged in, or associated with it.

No one dragged you in anything you didn't get yourself into.

Dan

 

[Dan Pop]

The freely available on-line comp.lang.c FAQ is arguably more useful to
the student wishing to learn C programming than the full-blown standard.
Later on, if C turns out to be a language they spend a LOT of time using,
then having access to a copy of the standard will be beneficial. It is
not required however.

For all you know, the Indian student's project might be implementing C on
some platform or another. He may already be an advanced C programmer, but
this is not enough when working on an implementation.

Dan