Beginning C++

[Computer Whizz]

Lets see. Tell me why VB and C#/CLI are better than C++ (C++/CLI or even
"managed extensions")?

They are better for "newbies" because you can throw a simple program
together in 10 minutes that would take (me - the newbie) 10 hours to do in
C++... Mainly because VB (dunno about C#) has alot more helpful
documentation than C++.

BUT when you learn the C++ language I'm sure you could do stuff in 10
minutes (more hardware/low-level/file stuff) than you could in VB because
you'd need to find out more info and type more to do the same.

 

[Phlip]

They are better for "newbies" because you can throw a simple program
together in 10 minutes that would take (me - the newbie) 10 hours to do in
C++... Mainly because VB (dunno about C#) has alot more helpful
documentation than C++.

BUT when you learn the C++ language I'm sure you could do stuff in 10
minutes (more hardware/low-level/file stuff) than you could in VB because
you'd need to find out more info and type more to do the same.

I have tried very hard in VB, for years, and I remain more productive (and
more robust) in C++. _Especially_ when I do high-level GUI work - the things
VB was allegedly designed for.

C++ with /Accelerated C++/, and mentoring, is a mostly harmless learner
language. But I can't recommend it online, because I don't know if the
reader has the book and the mentor.

 

[Mike Wahler]

One person asked how he can start learning C++ in comp.lang.c++, and
instead of providing some information on this you tell him to move to
C#, VB and Java (and 2 other idiots to Ruby).

That is trolling.

No, it's not. It's an attempt to help. Look up the definition
of trolling.

Anyway, to the point: context is important. If you'll read
the *entire* message from the OP, you should realize that
John's advice was appropriate. Of course OP should read
all the replies and make his own decisions.

-Mike

 

[Ioannis Vranos]

Anyway, to the point: context is important. If you'll read
the *entire* message from the OP, you should realize that
John's advice was appropriate.

Not it wasn't. Consider me if I was sticking around in Java newsgroups,
and when someone asked for some book of Java to begin with, or some
compiler, to tell him to move to C++.

Or in Ruby newsgroups, VB, etc. This behaviour is not appropriate.


If someone asked what language he should consider, then such answers
would be valid. Otherwise it is trolling, or in other words impolite.

 

[Randy Yates]

Does anybody here have any input on how to start learning C++. I am
hoping nobody tells me to take courses. I am still in college and
tried taking courses but found that all the details about pseudocode
and other programming basics drove me insane. I think after taking
that course and from general knowledge I have picked up I am pretty
familiar with the way programs are built on a basic level at least. I
am not looking to make a career of programming, I simply want
familiarity with such languages as C++ because it can help in many IT
jobs to be able to throw together small programs. This is why I am
also interested in VB and curious about any other languages that can
be useful. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to read this and
I hope I get some answers.

-- Ari Winokur

I have two suggestions:

1. DO buy the book "Teach Yourself C++" by Herbert Schildt. I think it
is not only an excellent introduction to the language, but will
serve as a reference for refreshing concepts when one has been away
for awhile.

2. DO NOT buy the book "The C++ Standard Library: A Tutorial and Reference"
by Nicolai M. Josuttis. I feel that my $65 was almost completely wasted on
this book, even though it is given a "highly recommended" rating in the
FAQ for this group.
--
% Randy Yates % "She's sweet on Wagner-I think she'd die for Beethoven.
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % She love the way Puccini lays down a tune, and
%%% 919-577-9882 % Verdi's always creepin' from her room."
%%%% <[email protected]> % "Rockaria", *A New World Record*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

 

[John Harrison]

I have two suggestions:

1. DO buy the book "Teach Yourself C++" by Herbert Schildt. I think it
is not only an excellent introduction to the language, but will
serve as a reference for refreshing concepts when one has been away
for awhile.

Schildt has an appaling reputation. I can't say if its deserved because I've
never read any of his books. I have however seen some of the howlers
contained in some of his books.

So, I'm interested, what was it that you liked about this book?

2. DO NOT buy the book "The C++ Standard Library: A Tutorial and Reference"
by Nicolai M. Josuttis. I feel that my $65 was almost completely wasted on
this book, even though it is given a "highly recommended" rating in the
FAQ for this group.

What was it that you didn't like about this? When I first bought it I though
it contained very little that I couldn't get elsewhere and that it was
somewhat repetitious. But since then I've found I do refer to it quite
often.

john

 

[Karl Heinz Buchegger]

I have two suggestions:

1. DO buy the book "Teach Yourself C++" by Herbert Schildt. I think it
is not only an excellent introduction to the language, but will
serve as a reference for refreshing concepts when one has been away
for awhile.

2. DO NOT buy the book "The C++ Standard Library: A Tutorial and Reference"
by Nicolai M. Josuttis. I feel that my $65 was almost completely wasted on
this book, even though it is given a "highly recommended" rating in the
FAQ for this group.

You suggestions reflect your performance in this group

Ari:
Shildt's book have a bad reputation
Randy is right in not suggesting Josuttis book *now*. It surely
is way over the head for a newbie. However when you have come to
speed in C++, it is defenitly a recommended buy.

 

[Ioannis Vranos]

I have two suggestions:

1. DO buy the book "Teach Yourself C++" by Herbert Schildt.

Perhaps you mean by Jesse Liberty?

 

[Phlip]

Schildt has an appaling reputation. I can't say if its deserved because I've
never read any of his books. I have however seen some of the howlers
contained in some of his books.

I went into a VONS (a regional supermarket chain), and by the entrance was a
table of old books, to be sold for a couple bucks each for charity. Before
avoiding the Danielle Steel covers and going shopping, I noticed /Advanced
C/ by HS.

I was absolutely tickled, because it contained chapters from my second C
book ever. I immediately looked up "recursive descent parser", and there it
was, the same friendly and comprehensible verbiage, and the same lean but
terse code. No spaces between operators and variables, the latter usually of
a single letter. You gotta respect the patience to write the same
explanation of recursion, over and over again, in different ways, to make
sure that all the readers "get" it.

HS's bad reputation comes from declaring a technical accuracy he's incapable
of defining, and from refusing to publish "errata" and such. If you don't
treat him like a thought leader or guru, and shelve him with the "Unleashed
Dummies in 21 Days" books, he can't affect you. Much.

 

[Stuart Gerchick]

Does anybody here have any input on how to start learning C++. I am
hoping nobody tells me to take courses. I am still in college and
tried taking courses but found that all the details about pseudocode
and other programming basics drove me insane. I think after taking
that course and from general knowledge I have picked up I am pretty
familiar with the way programs are built on a basic level at least. I
am not looking to make a career of programming, I simply want
familiarity with such languages as C++ because it can help in many IT
jobs to be able to throw together small programs. This is why I am
also interested in VB and curious about any other languages that can
be useful. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to read this and
I hope I get some answers.

-- Ari Winokur

ari_winokur at comcast dot net

Stuart Gerchick,
I am going to recommend a number of useful books to start with that
will give you a good perspective

1) Accelerated C++ by Koeing and Moo. This book starts with high
level STL code to get you moving fast and build apps quickly, without
learning the details till later

2) Essential C++ by Stanley B. Lippman a good starting book

3) C++ primer by Stanley B. Lippman - a 1000+ page book. However, it
will
take you from basic stuff to very advanced topics.

Searching the internet is fine. but you need a good book to get a
clear consistent view of c++ programming

 

[Mike Wahler]

Not it wasn't. Consider me if I was sticking around in Java newsgroups,
and when someone asked for some book of Java to begin with, or some
compiler, to tell him to move to C++.

Then you'd be advising the OP to move to a more complex language.
John did the inverse. Note again OP's *entire* message.

Or in Ruby newsgroups, VB, etc. This behaviour is not appropriate.


If someone asked what language he should consider, then such answers
would be valid. Otherwise it is trolling, or in other words impolite.

Please look up definition of trolling.

-Mike

 

[Randy Yates]

You suggestions reflect your performance in this group

When did you get appointed Head Bottlewasher of comp.lang.c++?

Ari:
Shildt's book have a bad reputation
Randy is right in not suggesting Josuttis book *now*. It surely
is way over the head for a newbie. However when you have come to
speed in C++, it is defenitly a recommended buy.

Ari, my recommendations stand.

 

[Randy Yates]

Schildt has an appaling reputation. I can't say if its deserved because I've
never read any of his books. I have however seen some of the howlers
contained in some of his books.

So, I'm interested, what was it that you liked about this book?

Why would it matter? It sounds to me like you've made up your mind.

What was it that you didn't like about this? When I first bought it I though
it contained very little that I couldn't get elsewhere and that it was
somewhat repetitious. But since then I've found I do refer to it quite
often.

Good for you.

 

[John Harrison]

1. DO buy the book "Teach Yourself C++" by Herbert Schildt. I think it

Why would it matter? It sounds to me like you've made up your mind.

Not at all, I'm always wanting to hear contrary opinions.

I've read many revues of his books and they seem to come from a rather
narrow point of view. He's obviously doing something right or his books
wouldn't be so popular. Never having actually read any of them myself I'm
genuinely interested in hearing from someone who has and who got a lot of
benefit from it.

john

 

[puppet_sock]

Does anybody here have any input on how to start learning C++.

[snip]

"Accelerated C++" by Koenig and Moo. Learn it the right way first.
Then, if you are going to be doing work in it, pick up some of the
other standards and learn more of the language in more detail.
Socks

 

[Randy Yates]

Not at all, I'm always wanting to hear contrary opinions.

I've read many revues of his books and they seem to come from a rather
narrow point of view. He's obviously doing something right or his books
wouldn't be so popular. Never having actually read any of them myself I'm
genuinely interested in hearing from someone who has and who got a lot of
benefit from it.

john

Ok, John, I'll take you at your word.

What I like best about his book is the abundance of examples. In many
cases, the general syntax is presented, followed by an example of the
syntax and its usage within a small program.

His writing style is simple and concepts are presented in small
"chunks" using plain English with no attempt at sounding
"erudite". Sometimes this gets in the way since you might have to read
through a lot of text before finding what you're after, but generally
I'd rather have it this way than overly terse and academic.

Finally, I think his coverage is good. The basics are provided
(classes, constructors, destructors, etc.), but so are some
not-so-basic items such as friend functions, multiple-inheritance,
virtual base classes, pure virtual functions, and templates.

My $0.02.

It may be relevent to note that my version of the book is copyright
1994 and I took this class in 1996.
--
% Randy Yates % "So now it's getting late,
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % and those who hesitate
%%% 919-577-9882 % got no one..."
%%%% <[email protected]> % 'Waterfall', *Face The Music*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

 

[John Harrison]

Ok, John, I'll take you at your word.

What I like best about his book is the abundance of examples. In many
cases, the general syntax is presented, followed by an example of the
syntax and its usage within a small program.

His writing style is simple and concepts are presented in small
"chunks" using plain English with no attempt at sounding
"erudite". Sometimes this gets in the way since you might have to read
through a lot of text before finding what you're after, but generally
I'd rather have it this way than overly terse and academic.

Finally, I think his coverage is good. The basics are provided
(classes, constructors, destructors, etc.), but so are some
not-so-basic items such as friend functions, multiple-inheritance,
virtual base classes, pure virtual functions, and templates.

My $0.02.

Well you're a brave man for sticking up for Schildt on comp.lang.c++. But
even his critics praise his style which you obviously found helpful. Most of
the criticism he gets is over his technical accuracy and I've seen examples
which have genuinely made me wonder how well he understands C++. It's a pity
he can't combine accuracy and style, I'm sure that would be possible without
sacrificing any clarity.

But I think accuracy is not the most important thing in a beginners book,
the most important thing it to get the beginner engaged in the process of
programming. Most people learn by doing and only need a nudge or two when
they get stuck or to introduce a new topic. Having taught programming myself
I know that the most important part of the lesson is where I shut up and let
the pupils get on with it. As you say, trying to be erudite is going to turn
off 90% of beginners.

One day I'll have to pick up one of his books and make my own mind up.

John

 

[=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo]

Well you're a brave man for sticking up for Schildt on comp.lang.c++. But
even his critics praise his style which you obviously found helpful. Most
of the criticism he gets is over his technical accuracy and I've seen
examples which have genuinely made me wonder how well he understands C++.
It's a pity he can't combine accuracy and style, I'm sure that would be
possible without sacrificing any clarity.

I take my firsts steps in pre-standard C++ with a spanish edition of a
Schildt book, "C++ Guía de autoenseñanza", and I think my brain was not
irreparably damaged I think it was a very good introductory book, and I
don't think that complete accuracy is fundamental in that level.

 

[Randy Yates]

[...]
Most of the criticism he gets is over his technical accuracy
and I've seen examples which have genuinely made me wonder how well
he understands C++.

Is there an example of an inaccuracy in this particular book/edition that
I could take a look at? I'm curious what sorts of errors he makes.

It's a pity he can't combine accuracy and style, I'm sure that would
be possible without sacrificing any clarity.

Sure seems so to me.

One day I'll have to pick up one of his books and make my own mind up.

As should always be the case.
--
% Randy Yates % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % 'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882 % the coin will fall."
%%%% <[email protected]> % 'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

 

[Ioannis Vranos]

Is there an example of an inaccuracy in this particular book/edition that
I could take a look at? I'm curious what sorts of errors he makes.

You can check these reviews:

http://www.accu.org/cgi-bin/accu/rvout.cgi?from=0au_s&file=m001948a

http://www.accu.org/cgi-bin/accu/rvout.cgi?from=0au_s&file=s002016a

http://www.accu.org/cgi-bin/accu/rvout.cgi?from=0au_s&file=c002173a

http://www.accu.org/cgi-bin/accu/rvout.cgi?from=0au_s&file=c002217a