Do you feel bad because of the Python docs?

[rurpy]

In which JoePie91 writes:
...the community around Python is one of the most hostile and
unhelpful communities around any programming-related topic that
I have ever seen...

To me, this is a lying troll rant worth less than most of RantingRick's
posts.

Rather making his point, aren't you?

[...]

 

[Roy Smith]

do you /really/ expect that people have the
time to open an issue on the bug tracker?

There's a certain amount of socialism involved in OSS. "From each
according to his ability," really is the way it works. If your ability
is that you've discovered that the documentation isn't as good as it
should be, you owe the project a few minutes of your time to create a
ticket describing the problem (and, even better, suggesting how it could
be improved).

Looking at my bugs.python.org activity, I see I've opened 30 bugs over
the past 9-1/2 years. Of those, 16 were explicitly against the docs,
and a few more were of the "I'm not sure if this is a docs bug or a code
bug, but it doesn't do what it says it does" variety.

Do you really think that everyone
who uses python even knows about the bug tracker?

Everybody? No. But, anybody who uses OSS should understand that any
non-trivial project has a bug tracker. And even if they don't know
where it is, they should be capable of typing "python bug tracker" into
a search engine and finding it.

Do you really think that people will believe that their opinion is
worthy of placing on the bug tracker?

In my experience, it's far more likely for people to over-estimate the
important of their own opinion than to under-estimate it

 

[Mark Lawrence]

In which JoePie91 writes:
...the community around Python is one of the most hostile and
unhelpful communities around any programming-related topic that
I have ever seen...

To me, this is a lying troll rant worth less than most of RantingRick's
posts.

Rather making his point, aren't you?

[...]

No.

 

[Rick Johnson]

Ranting on public forums is nothing but posturing at best, and at
worst an attempt to blackmail-by-shame people into doing something for
you. Same goes for calls for "the community" to "fix" things.

What you call ranting is most times people venting frustrations BECAUSE they want to help, but nobody is allowing them to be a contributing member of the community.

When someone tries to offer help, in the form of constructive criticism, and then somebody snaps at them, they then loose the will to help. I myself would love to contribute my "quite awesome" re-write of the Tkinter GUI library, but due to the friction i've encountered on this list, i am resigned to keep it to myself (at least for the time being). Which is sad because python (and python programmers) could greatly benefit from a polished Tkinter.

Alex i can assure you, there DOES exist a very harsh attitude to outside opinions within this community. Case in point: Why should ANYBODY need to voice Python problems on various blogs around the web? I think it would be in the interest of the Python community to have these opinions voiced here, onthe list, for all to discuss.

This is why i will AGAIN mention my PyWarts list (Hypothetical at this point). We need an official place for the many problems of Python to be discussed in a fair and open manner. A place that will be open to noobs and frequented by pythonisitas (including the BDFL himself!)

============================================================
Path of a Python Issue
============================================================
1. All perceived problems with python get voiced on the PyWarts list
2. After considerable discussion, and if we can widdle the problem down to a tangible bug, then a bug gets opened on the tracker.
3. Hopefully the bug will be resolved and closed ASAP.

This is a linear path of inclusion that will prompt people to participate. You and i both know we need more people working at the tracker, and there are many who want to participate, but they will never participate at the "bug tracker level" when they get nothing but friction at the "python-list level". We all need to tone down the hostility and lower the bar for those whowish to help. Neither this community nor this language can survive withouta steady adoption of new members.

 

[Roy Smith]

When someone tries to offer help, in the form of constructive criticism, and
then somebody snaps at them, they then loose the will to help. I myself would
love to contribute my "quite awesome" re-write of the Tkinter GUI library,
but due to the friction i've encountered on this list, i am resigned to keep
it to myself (at least for the time being). Which is sad because python (and
python programmers) could greatly benefit from a polished Tkinter.

So, put it on github (or whatever), and announce its availability. If
the Tkinter user community finds it valuable, they'll use it. There's
plenty of third party packages that are better than what's packaged with
the core system (requests vs urllib, for example).

 

[llanitedave]

I just completed my first Python app for public consumption, and I was learning as I was coding. I've played on the outskirts of the language for a few years, but until this project I'd never really immersed myself in it. Iended up being confused a lot. So, I DO have some relevant thoughts:

1. The Python official documentation is not great, but it's not bad either.. Some of it seems outdated, some of it is a bit hard to parse, some of itassumes more background knowledge on the part of the reader than is justified.

Somebody mentioned the Django documentation. I've looked at it a bit, and it's *very* nice. I do think that the PSF could take some clues from its style and approach.
But those are pretty minor gripes. I've learned a lot from referencing thedocumentation, and its still my first go-to source when I'm stuck.

2. The Python Community: Jopie91 wrote "I will no doubt piss off quite a few people with this statement, but the community around Python is one of the most hostile and unhelpful communities around any programming-related topic that I have ever seen – and with that I am not just referring to #python on Freenode, but to communities with a dense population of Python developers in general. This point actually consists of several separate attitudes and issues."

There, I'd have to say he's very, very wrong. When I have on occasion asked questions on this group I've never been flamed, and I've always had people give me thoughtful answers that obviously took some effort to compose.

My most recent question here concerned something that was thought to be a bug, but was due more to my own unfamiliarity with the material combined with what I'd suggest really was some ambiguity on the part of the documentation. Nevertheless, even with the misunderstandings, my questions were treated respectfully, and that's all I ask.

 

[Terry Reedy]

On 02/26/2013 11:43 AM, Terry Reedy wrote:

In which JoePie91 writes:
...the community around Python is one of the most hostile and
unhelpful communities around any programming-related topic that
I have ever seen...


Rather making his point, aren't you?

Not at all. Over the past 15 years I have make 1000s of polite helpful
responses to perhaps 100s of different people. Others have done much the
same. The fact that I am hostile to and occasionally make an exception
to not responding to lying troll rants does not at all prove his lie.
Indeed, Joe did not post here, and I was not speaking to him. I intended
my complete post to be overall helpful to people who do read here. If
Joe ever does post a polite question here, I hope and expect he would
get a polite response.

 

[Chris Angelico]

This is why i will AGAIN mention my PyWarts list (Hypothetical at this point). We need an official place for the many problems of Python to be discussed in a fair and open manner. A place that will be open to noobs and frequented by pythonisitas (including the BDFL himself!)

============================================================
Path of a Python Issue
============================================================
1. All perceived problems with python get voiced on the PyWarts list
2. After considerable discussion, and if we can widdle the problem down to a tangible bug, then a bug gets opened on the tracker.
3. Hopefully the bug will be resolved and closed ASAP.

Go start the list. When you get something that's worth posting, go
post it on the tracker. And if you post something with an actual
patch, then maybe it'll be accepted.

Why are you demanding that busy people attend to you? You are
effectively demanding that Guido, who has a full-time job as well as
being head of a large project, should - without compensation - read
and actively respond to every one of your whiny posts. That is simply
not going to happen unless he *wants to*. It's up to you to make it
worth his while, or at least interesting. That's how things work.

ChrisA

 

[Rick Johnson]

This is why i will AGAIN mention my PyWarts list
(Hypothetical at this point). We need an official place
for the many problems of Python to be discussed in a
fair and open manner. A place that will be open to noobs
and frequented by pythonisitas (including the BDFL
himself!)
[...]

Go start the list.

But with that statement you keep missing the point. We DON'T need yet another list on yet another corner of the web. What we DO need is a list that islocal to the community. Are you asking me to start a pywarts usenet list? Does the community want it to be titled "PyWarts"? How about showing me that you are really interested by offering some name ideas. I am quite partialto PyWarts because i think the name is "catchy", but i am open to outside ideas, have at it!

When you get something that's worth posting, go
post it on the tracker. And if you post something with an actual
patch, then maybe it'll be accepted.

Yes, that's step two. First step: discussion to find the definition of the bug, second step: open a bug report. Having people voicing opinions on the tracker is diverting the time and energy of the good people who volunteer there. We need to move the discussion somewhere else (PyWarts)

Why are you demanding that busy people attend to you? You are
effectively demanding that Guido, who has a full-time job as well as
being head of a large project, should - without compensation - read
and actively respond to every one of your whiny posts.

I understand the responsibilities that Guido is tasked, and i do not expecthim to answer frivolous questions on the list. What i DO expect is that heat minimum publicly support the following:

1. Guido needs to wield his power by announcing (politely) that the community should be more open to outside opinions and methods of solving problems.This is the most important step and the start of a recovery process.

2. Guido should also announce that in order to achieve this goal, we need avery public and very intuitive path of solving Python issues. This path starts at a list for sharing Python related greivances (call it PyWarts if you like) , which HOPEFULLY he will at least make an attempt to visit from time to time. This list (and this path) needs to be mentioned quite prominately on the python.org website (which itself needs quite a bit of polishing!)

GvR has not even shown his face on python-list list for around a decade or more. He only posts at "py-ideas" (that i know of). This is why the community is in such disarray. It is paramount that he make some public appearanceand speak of his dreams for the future.

"How can GvR go and declare himself a BDFL and then sail off into the sunset to his little island paridise of "py-ideas" without ever giving validityto his people and his creation? If does not want to lead anymore, fine! Say so. If he does, fine! Make an announcment!"

That is simply
not going to happen unless he *wants to*. It's up to you to make it
worth his while, or at least interesting. That's how things work.

All i ask is for Guido to lead. That's all.

He is the only person in this whole damn community who has the influence tospeak and have people listen. If he will publicly endorse some "good will"within the community, and admit that we desperately need a streamed-lined and linear path for solving python's many problems, i can guarantee that wewill see a great influx of really smart people. I myself will commit everysecond i can to help move along the evolution.

I also wish he would speak publicly about the stale nature of Tkinter and IDLE. Allowing these two modules to become so outdated is really tarnishing the image of Python's stdlib. Whether you think the modules should be in the stdlib or not, is *not* the question. They are there, so we must try to improve them.

Python is a great language, but we need diverse ideas to keep the cogs of evolution turning. Guido can start the ball rolling 10 minutes from now, allit will take is for him to make a public announcement...

 

[llanitedave]

Python is a great language, but we need diverse ideas to keep the cogs of evolution turning. Guido can start the ball rolling 10 minutes from now, all it will take is for him to make a public announcement...

Geez, dude, let the man get some sleep!

 

[alex23]

What you call ranting is most times people venting frustrations
BECAUSE they want to help, but nobody is allowing them to be a
contributing member of the community.

You claim that no one has time to write a bug report. I point out that
if they can spend the time ranting about the bug, then they have the
time. You then proceed to try and reframe the discussion to something
else entirely.

Venting frustrations isn't contributing. If someone is confused about
how to contribute, they could just *ask*, as people _regularly_ do
here, and are always given reasonable direction how to do so.

When someone tries to offer help, in the form of constructive criticism, and then somebody snaps at them, they then loose the will to help. I myselfwould love to contribute my "quite awesome" re-write of the Tkinter GUI library, but due to the friction i've encountered on this list, i am resignedto keep it to myself (at least for the time being). Which is sad because python (and python programmers) could greatly benefit from a polished Tkinter.

Insisting your personal project is shoved into the standard library
isn't helping. Write a PEP. Put the code up on PyPI. There's a well-
established path for progressing code from "look what I done make!"
into something that is considered part of Python.

Alex i can assure you, there DOES exist a very harsh attitude to outside opinions within this community.

Don't extend this list's reaction to you and your particular blend of
idiocy to the general response to opinions.

Case in point: Why should ANYBODY need to voice Python problems on various blogs around the web?

The two main reasons seem to be: vanity, and an unwillingness to
listen to criticism.

This is why i will AGAIN mention my PyWarts list (Hypothetical at this point).

"Hypothetical" sums up pretty much all of your supposed contributions
to date.

We need an official place for the many problems of Python to be discussedin a fair and open manner. A place that will be open to noobs and frequented by pythonisitas (including the BDFL himself!)

Starting a new forum just fragments the discussion even further.

============================================================
 Path of a Python Issue
============================================================
1. All perceived problems with python get voiced on the PyWarts list
2. After considerable discussion, and if we can widdle the problem down to a tangible bug, then a bug gets opened on the tracker.
3. Hopefully the bug will be resolved and closed ASAP.

Ah, so it's your way or no way, yet again.

THERE ALREADY EXISTS A PATH FOR DEALING WITH ISSUES.

This is a linear path of inclusion that will prompt people to participate..

Right, until someone doesn't get the response they want and they
agitate for this to happen on Stackoverflow, or IRC, or their brand
new forum they've set up. You're not the first person to want to
impose your own brand of tyranny on the process.

You and i both know we need more people working at the tracker

No one is going to be "working at the tracker", because no one is
*paid* to do such "work". People can participate by contributing, or
they can choose not to. The latter should also STFU if they're not
willing to contribute, but this seems to be a position you're unable
or unwilling to understand.

Neither this community nor this language can survive without a steady adoption of new members.

The current process is not doing anything like the damage to the
uptake of Python that you constantly claim it is, but you do love your
hyperbole.

 

[alex23]

Guido can start the ball rolling 10 minutes from now, all it will
take is for him to make a public announcement...

Can you please stop this *constant* insistence that Guido talk to
you / do what you think is important? It's pointless posturing and
empty rhetoric and we've had to put up with it for *years* now. The
man has a job and at least one side project that is clearly of far
more interest & importance to him than jumping through hoops for one
incessant whiner.

Stop being so damn arrogant and insulting.

 

[Rick Johnson]

You claim that no one has time to write a bug report. I point out that
if they can spend the time ranting about the bug, then they have the
time.

And i would like to point out that all your nay-saying and condemnations are taking some valuable time also. Time that could be better spent finding new ways for our "new friends" to contribute.

* Do you care about the evolution of Python or just give it lip service?
* Do you have an ideas for the name of a Python grievance list?
* What are your opinions of the state of both Tkinter and IDLE? Are you proud of these modules/packages?
* Why do you support Guido's continued reign of silence?
* But most importantly, do you not want the community/language to evolve orremain static?

What is your opinion on anything "Python related" Alex? All i've heard fromyou is negativity, condemnation, and insults -- with exception of your statements about the GG's interface the other day, all your other posts have been nothing but lectures to myself and other concerned Python uses.

 

[Jason Friedman]

Python has a nice Tutorial for beginners. It is an integral part of the doc

set. To ignore that (and the indexes) in discussing the usability of Python
docs by beginners is to lie. (If beginners who actually read the tutorial
have problems with particular paragraphs, improvements can be and have been
made.)

I never thought about the quality of the Python docs until reading
these posts. I started with Python by reading the tutorial and
browsing the module pages and have reached some level of competency.
I suppose the module pages could stand to have more examples, but as
Chris Angelico says this list should be considered part of the
documentation, in which case the documents plus this list effectively
give me any example I am wanting. I am very grateful to those who
have given their time writing the existing documentation, answering
questions on this list, and of course writing the language! Python
has allowed me to be more successful at my job than the other
languages I considered.

The lazy and workable approach is to read the module documentation,
make a reasonable effort, follow
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html, and voilà.

 

[rurpy]

Those priorities are backwards.

Badly written reference materials that are ineffective at transferring
information is potentially useless, no matter how complete and accurate,
and there's often not much you can do to make it better written other
than throwing it away and starting again.

Why assume "useless"? The claim is that much of the
current Python documentation is badly written but it
is hardly useless. Is it even possible to be "complete
and accurate" and totally "useless" at the same time?

But well-written reference material that is incomplete can be
incrementally added to, eventually making it complete.

And badly written documentation can be incrementally rewritten
so I don't see your point. If you going to start with the
premise of docs so badly written they are *totally* "useless"
then start with an equally extreme incompleteness premise:
there is no documentation at all (including source code if
you want to consider that, "documentation").

If anyone thinks that being complete is more important than being
readable, let me point out that the Python source code is a 100% complete
and accurate reference to the behaviour of Python.

It may be a complete and accurate if poorly readable
reference for those who already know Python and C well
(and Java and C#/.net if you want to cover Python generally)
but the presumed target audience of the documentation does
not necessarily know them.

And since you're claiming that readable is more important
than complete and accurate, ask yourself which *you* would
prefer if you could have only one: readable but incomplete
and inaccurate docs or the poorly readable but complete and
accurate source code?

So we're done, yes?

How so? You have source code that is not useful for the
intended audience of the documentation and no documentation.

No of course not.

Right.

Perhaps a better way to look at it than I (or you) stated
is to consider accuracy and completeness very important
qualities of reference documentation, as is of course the
writing quality.

[...]

Documentation is the ultimate authority for what it is *supposed* to do.

Incorrect. If that were true, then there could never be a documentation
bug. Documentation can be buggy, just as software can be buggy. If
function f() is documented as doing X, but actually does Y, which one is
correct? In general there is no way to tell. In practice, the ultimate
authority is the consensus (if any!) of the people who write the software.

Correct documentation is the ultimate authority for what
it is supposed to do. In context, that was in contrast
to the oft-recommended technique of seeing what the software
does without reference to the documentation. I take your
point that when behavior and documentation disagree, it
may not be immediately clear which is at fault but without
reference to the documentation you will never even
notice the discrepancy.

 

[alex23]

And i would like to point out that all your nay-saying and condemnations are taking some valuable time also. Time that could be better spent findingnew ways for our "new friends" to contribute.

This is a false conclusion. Why would I spend time doing this when I
don't believe it's necessary?

* Do you care about the evolution of Python or just give it lip service?

I don't see any problems with how Python is developing now. Then
again, I am pretty busy using it to write code.

* Do you have an ideas for the name of a Python grievance list?
http://bugs.python.org/

* What are your opinions of the state of both Tkinter and IDLE? Are you proud of these modules/packages?

I don't use them, nor do I need to feel "pride" about any part of the
Python standard library. Either something is useful to me or not.

* Why do you support Guido's continued reign of silence?

Why do you inject hyperbole into everything you write?

* But most importantly, do you not want the community/language to evolve or remain static?

I already answered that above. You, on the other hand, constantly
dodge any direct questions or criticisms. Can you provide a link to
your "improved" tkinter package on PyPI? Where is your draft PEP for
its inclusion in the standard library? How is RickPython proceeding?

What is your opinion on anything "Python related" Alex?

My biggest opinion is that you're a ridiculous little blowhard that
this "community" would be better off without. My biggest regret re
Python is that you found it more appealing than Ruby and we got
saddled with you instead.

Other than that, I use it daily to *get real work done*. What do you
do with it other than use it as a soapbox for your ego?

All i've heard from you is negativity, condemnation, and insults -- with exception of your statements about the GG's interface the other day, all your other posts have been nothing but lectures to myself and other concernedPython uses.

And here you descend into slander. I condemn *you* because you're a
contemptible twit with delusions of grandeur. I lecture *you* because
you'e particularly slow and dim-witted. As for "other concerned Python
uses", the last few threads we've both posted in I've provided
pragmatic advice, if not explicit code samples, while you have done
your usual posturing and grandiose bulshytt. You responded to a
request for advice on learning how to handle complex projects with:

"Before you decide to start participating in outside projects may we
have a list of some of the software you've written for yourself? (With
all due respect) I very seriously doubt that someone with only a "few
months" of programming experience is ready for the real world."

And you have the audacity to claim that I'm the one lecturing other
people... Who do you think you are, the Python-participation police?

 

[Chris Angelico]

My biggest regret re Python is that [Ranting Rick] found it more
appealing than Ruby and we got saddled with [him] instead.

Having used Ruby a little this past couple of weeks (trying to install
a Rails application), I fully understand Rick's preference for Python;
it just proves that he wants to use a language that's actually ready
to use.

In discussion with my brother about the problems I'd been having with
Ruby, he summed up the status in one pithy phrase: Critical lack of
polish. Setting up Ruby + Rails + Spree + all the other gems that
those three require, instead of being a fairly simple half-hour job,
took me over a day.

The main issue is that Ruby functions like a niche language, but is
trying to be mainstream. Installing a gem requires that code be
compiled, and sometimes that code doesn't compile and I need to fetch
some development libraries. That's something I'm quite capable of, as
a Linux-based developer, but it's not a job for a systems
administrator. How are Ruby-based sites supposed to be deployed?

Additionally, there are a number of critical-yet-minor problems. The
standard way to invoke Rails is 'rails server' which invokes WEBrick
on port 3000. You can change that port, but to use one <=1024, you
have to be root... and there's no way to have it drop privileges
afterwards. So a Ruby on Rails system, accessible on port 80, will
have to run everything as root. No thanks. Alternatively, you can set
up firewall rules to redirect port 80 to port 3000... or have an
Apache load-balancing proxy... or, my personal favorite, set up an SSH
tunnel to localhost. All this because there's no standard way to drop
privileges after binding (nor a standard way to accept a socket passed
from another process, and listen on that - which is possible with
Ruby, just not conventional).

So, yeah. We're stuck with Rick because we have the better language+library.

ChrisA

 

[Rick Johnson]

[...]
* Do you care about the evolution of Python or just give
it lip service?

I don't see any problems with how Python is developing now. Then
again, I am pretty busy using it to write code.

So go write your code and stop trying to stymie the attempts of others who wish to improve Python. Your participation is NOT compulsory!

* Do you have an ideas for the name of a Python grievance
list?

http://bugs.python.org/

Well thanks for actually answering a question directly, but we must dig deeper. Deciding the _name_ of a list is just one small detail, the most important question is this:

Q: Do you feel that the bug tracker should be a place where users discuss grievances that distract volunteers from fixing actual bugs?

I'm of the opinion that such discussions are more suited for an entry-levelgrievance list (such as: PyWarts).

* What are your opinions of the state of both Tkinter and
IDLE? Are you proud of these modules/packages?

I don't use them,

So again, why bother to stymie the attempts of others who DO use them? Crawl back under your rock and write some code.

...nor do I need to feel "pride" about any part of the
Python standard library. Either something is useful to me or not.

That's a fairly selfish outlook Alex.

Okay, maybe you don't care about the state of Python's stdlib, fine, but other people do. How does flinging poo on these people help anyone? But more importantly how does flinging poo reflect on your image in this community?

Why do you inject hyperbole into everything you write?

The question is quite valid and your are diverting again!

* But most importantly, do you not want the community/
language to evolve or remain static?

I already answered that above. [...] Can you provide a link to
your "improved" tkinter package on PyPI?

No, because my "awesome re-write of Tkinter" does not live at PyPI.

Where is your draft PEP for its inclusion in the standard
library?

I have not written a PEP on the subject. Are you suggesting that if i don'twrite a PEP my proposal is "dead in the water"? If so, this is exactly thekind of barriers that keep Python's stdlib in such a atrocious state!

What if i'm a horrible writer and a genius code artist? If the community judges the value of "source code" based on the rhetoric of a "document describing the source code", then they are basing their judgments on folly. What happens if i am a seasoned programmer but English is my second language?

It is my opinion that PEP are great, but they should not be compulsory to having your ideas seriously considered by the community. A great idea is a great idea, no matter how much fluff you add to it. Likewise, a poor idea isa poor idea, and no amount of fluff could ever make it better. In this sense, PEP are a waste of valuable time.

And let's not forget the irony here; the default reply for documentation issues is for the user to "read the effing source!". Hmm, so *you* and othersfeel that reading source is compulsory for those *without* the ability to comprehend the source, and a waste of time for those *with* the ability to read source? Is this not the definition of hipocracy Alex? I have a feelingthere is a bit of malevolence in there also.

Alex, your in ability to understand the asinine barriers a contributor to this community must negotiate is leading me to believe you have _insidious_ intentions.

How is RickPython proceeding?

My personal Python fork is of no concern to this community, or this mailinglist; STAY ON TOPIC!

My biggest regret re Python is that you found it more
appealing than Ruby and we got saddled with you instead.

Ahh, and this little "off-hand" statement uncovers the hidden truth. Regardless of your personal feeling of me, your underlying hatred of Python is *glaringly* apparent!

You responded to a request for advice on learning how to
handle complex projects with:

"Before you decide to start participating in outside projects may we
have a list of some of the software you've written for yourself? (With
all due respect) I very seriously doubt that someone with only a "few
months" of programming experience is ready for the real world."

The OP of that thread asked for advice on "large projects" that we might recommend. I tend to prefer giving people good advice and only guessing when i have not other choice. In order to offer good advice i need to know firsthow experienced the OP is with programming (not only python, but all languages).

The only "hint" the OP offered was this:

############################################################
# Quote #
############################################################
# So, I desided to start learning programming a few months #
# ago and by now i feel pretty confident about the basics #
# of the python language, and programming in general. #
# Variables,loops, conditionals, data structures, methods #
# and even some object oriented programming, are all #
# familiar consepts. #
############################################################

Whilst quite admirable, these very basics fundamentals of programming are NOT going to prepare you for real world coding projects. Maybe the OP has more experience that he failed to mention, but I need more information beforei can make an honest assessment of the OP's skill-set.

Possibly, when he offers such information, i "may" or "may not" be able to offer the best advice, however unlike some folks *cough*, i understand thatthis information must be available before myself, of anybody, can offer good advice.

And by the way Alex, you are free to put *your* face into the conversation anytime you like. These are free and open forums the last time i checked. But don't chastise me for following an intelligent protocol.

 

[Chris Angelico]

Q: Do you feel that the bug tracker should be a place where users discuss grievances that distract volunteers from fixing actual bugs?

So you admit that discussion of your whining about perceived
grievances would distract busy people from doing useful things to and
with Python... and yet you demand GvR's *personal* involvement. I
think you grossly misunderstand the position of BDFL. It's "servant to
all", but not "grovelling, boot-licking sap with no life who spends
all day dealing with idiots". A subtle difference, I'm sure, and I can
understand how someone of your intellect could fail to recognize it.

ChrisA

 

[alex23]

And by the way Alex, you are free to put *your* face into the conversation anytime you like.

You're such a little fascist.