emacs, linux and C

[Nick Keighley]

Richard G. Riley wrote:

[...] Why would a C programmer who uses emacs "hang out" in
an emacs newsgroup? he doesnt "do emacs" for a living. he almost
certainly "does C".

I struggle with your logic. If he does C for a living using Emacs, then
surely his livelyhood also depends on the latter?

I hope to hell you are not a professional programmer with reasoning
like this. Tell me, do you "hang out" in a newsgroup dedicated to your
newsreader? No? Thought not.

I've been on news groups for my IDE, my editor and my platform.
Jolly helpful they were too.

 

[Richard G. Riley]

And you were told some time ago that your conclusion was in error,
and that com*.emacs would be a better possibility. Instead of
accepting the advice and going somewhere that your basic wants
might be satisfied, you remained here arguing and generally making
life unpleasant for us all, not to mention consuming bandwidth. In
the process you have exposed you own rude boorishness, and
persuaded many of us to ignore you. If you have some topical
question in the future this will affect the response you get.
PLONK

Interestingly enough a C programmer who reads here DID send me the
solution. And the fact that you resort to a killfile because I stand
up to self important blowhards like yourself is indicative more of
your character than it is of mine. And i can assure you that your help
would not be particuarly welcome regardless.

 

[Richard G. Riley]

Richard G. Riley wrote:

[...] Why would a C programmer who uses emacs "hang out" in
an emacs newsgroup? he doesnt "do emacs" for a living. he almost
certainly "does C".

I struggle with your logic. If he does C for a living using Emacs, then
surely his livelyhood also depends on the latter?

I hope to hell you are not a professional programmer with reasoning
like this. Tell me, do you "hang out" in a newsgroup dedicated to your
newsreader? No? Thought not.

I've been on news groups for my IDE, my editor and my platform.
Jolly helpful they were too.

Yes. They can be. No question. But that really isnt the point is it?
The emacs group did not have an answer. This group did.

 

[August Karlstrom]

I had a requirement to access C language APIS/Stdrefs from within a
programmers editor.

I was unable to find info elsewhere.

This group is dedicated to C.

It is not a leap of faith to assume that the people who contribute
here use editors.

From this we may deduce that maybe some of these C programmers use
emacs.

From here we obtain that amazing conclusion that possibly C
programmers who post here know how to bring up context C help from
within emacs.

Still with me?

Now lets make it more complicated : where is a C programmer who uses
emacs as his editor more likely to be?

com*.emacs?
com*.c?

Hmmm.

Hence I asked here.

And that, for me, is the end of this ridiculous discussion

You don't seem to understand that your question is only marginally
related to C. If we generalize it just a bit it goes: "How do I
integrate library documentation for libraries written in the programming
language X with Emacs." This is obviously an Emacs/Emacs Lisp question.


August

 

[Richard G. Riley]

You don't seem to understand that your question is only marginally
related to C. If we generalize it just a bit it goes: "How do I
integrate library documentation for libraries written in the programming
language X with Emacs." This is obviously an Emacs/Emacs Lisp question.


August

I do understand how related to C it is : it is related to C
programmers who inhabit this NG.

I got my solution here from a private email so it wasnt so stupid for
me to come here after all.

As for your example : I would expect to find the solution either in
emacs or (more likely) X newsgroup where X programmers/gurus hang out
and may well just use emacs to support their day to day existence.

 

[August Karlstrom]

I do understand how related to C it is : it is related to C
programmers who inhabit this NG.

I got my solution here from a private email so it wasnt so stupid for
me to come here after all.

As for your example : I would expect to find the solution either in
emacs or (more likely) X newsgroup where X programmers/gurus hang out
and may well just use emacs to support their day to day existence.

I reckon many of the people at gnu.emacs.help are C programmers. After
all, C is one of, if not the, most widespread language.


August

 

[Mark McIntyre]

Without wanting to continue this too long, why would it be incorrect
to ask seasoned programmers such a question?

Because the topic of the group is the C /language/, not how to use it
on a specific platform, or how to use a specific toolset.

Programmers who,
presumably, use some sort of IDE/Editor combo to support the C
language development.

Presumption erroneous. When programming on Solaris or Linux, I mostly
use vi, compile from the commandline and debug with printf.
Mark McIntyre

 

[Mark McIntyre]

Are you joking? Why would a C programmer who uses emacs "hang out" in
an emacs newsgroup?

Presumably the words "sufficiently interested" are unknown to you.

I dont know. Maybe I've gone mad or something but I completely fail to
see the problem.

Thats apparent. Perhaps you need to lurk a bit longer.

And the more "reasons" I get for why I shouldnt have
asked this perfectly innocous c related question

Its not a bloody C related question, its an emacs question.

Mark McIntyre

 

[Mark McIntyre]

I hope to hell you are not a professional programmer with reasoning
like this. Tell me, do you "hang out" in a newsgroup dedicated to your
newsreader? No? Thought not.

You may want to read up on the meaning of the word "logic", since your
last statement has none.

If I posted to usenet as my livelihood, you can be sure I'd keep an
eye on the newsgroups relating to my tools.

If I used emacs day in and day out and depended on it professionally,
I'd keep an eye on relevant groups. Much as I do in fact monitor C,
linux, solaris, windows, gcc, etc through various media, as well as
banking, general computing and hardware issues.
Mark McIntyre

 

[Al Balmer]

Richard G. Riley wrote:

[...] Why would a C programmer who uses emacs "hang out" in
an emacs newsgroup? he doesnt "do emacs" for a living. he almost
certainly "does C".

I struggle with your logic. If he does C for a living using Emacs, then
surely his livelyhood also depends on the latter?

I hope to hell you are not a professional programmer with reasoning
like this. Tell me, do you "hang out" in a newsgroup dedicated to your
newsreader? No? Thought not.

I no longer read Mr. Riley's posts, so I may be missing some context,
but this looks like an excellent example. There *are* newsgroups
dedicated to my newsreader, and if I have a question about using my
newsreader to post to c.l.c., I go to them to ask it. I don't ask it
in c.l.c., even though there are many in the group who use the same
reader, and even though I may sometimes use it to post C language
related articles.

 

[Micah Cowan]

Oh ffs. Another member of this NGs self appoined mafioC.

This seems plonkworthy to me.

Status does tend to come with seniority here--but much more so, with
correct answers (and questions). If you knew anything about Usenet,
you'd have stuck around here before posting (or at the least, thumbed
through the archive), and discovered what is proper to ask on this
newsgroup, which happily gets decided by those who frequent it. This
sort of question has been decided non-topical FOR AGES. Just because
you don't like that fact doesn't mean you get to ignore it.

There tends to be enough noise (actually, more than enough signal,too)
on a list like this as there is. We can't afford scope creep, which is
why we insist on people staying on-topic.

 

[Keith Thompson]

And that, for me, is the end of this ridiculous discussion

And yet you kept posting about it.

 

[Arndt Jonasson]

Are you joking? Why would a C programmer who uses emacs "hang out" in
an emacs newsgroup? he doesnt "do emacs" for a living. he almost
certainly "does C".

I dont know. Maybe I've gone mad or something but I completely fail to
see the problem. And the more "reasons" I get for why I shouldnt have
asked this perfectly innocous c related question here are total
hogwash in my opinion. Still, it is a pubilc NG and if you want to
berate me for asking such a question here then it is your right to do so.

Maybe the question could be seen as proper to comp.lang.c since it is
connected with programming in C, but as I see it, the problem is that
many helpful answers wouldn't be. The answer might be "Yes, use
blubbglob.el from this elisp site" and then someone else wants to be
helpful and says "I use these modifications" and now we have elisp
code in comp.lang.c, which is decidedly off-topic. Then it would have
been better to ask the question in the forum where the whole
discussion would be on-topic.

But why spend so many articles on this? If you're trying to compose
the perfect article which will logically persudade everyone to be of
your opinion, it won't happen - the more you explain your reasoning,
the more there is for someone to disagree with. You can't go back to
previous articles and say "_this_ is the key point where you were wrong,
now admit it and all will be fine".

 

[Richard G. Riley]

Maybe the question could be seen as proper to comp.lang.c since it is
connected with programming in C, but as I see it, the problem is that
many helpful answers wouldn't be. The answer might be "Yes, use
blubbglob.el from this elisp site" and then someone else wants to be
helpful and says "I use these modifications" and now we have elisp
code in comp.lang.c, which is decidedly off-topic. Then it would have
been better to ask the question in the forum where the whole
discussion would be on-topic.

Like which NG? My whole issue with "the usual suspects" who are now in
my killfile or I'm in theirs was that I had no place asking this
question here. It is still my contention they are full of it. I got my
answer here. And I would ask the same question here. Nothing I have
seen has altered my opinion of this : this is a resource about the C
language and C programmers hang out here.

But why spend so many articles on this? If you're trying to compose
the perfect article which will logically persudade everyone to be of
your opinion, it won't happen - the more you explain your reasoning,
the more there is for someone to disagree with. You can't go back to
previous articles and say "_this_ is the key point where you were wrong,
now admit it and all will be fine".

I dont ask for any "admissions" : its clear that few will do that. All
I know is that there is a small minority clique here who like to jump
all over new posters at every opportnity mistakingly taking them for
usenet nooBs or new C programmers. They seem to love nothing more than
"OT take it to ...".

My problem is also that I have some time on my hands the last few days
I'll ignore things I dont agree with more from now on...

 

[David Resnick]

Like which NG? My whole issue with "the usual suspects" who are now in
my killfile or I'm in theirs was that I had no place asking this
question here. It is still my contention they are full of it. I got my
answer here. And I would ask the same question here. Nothing I have
seen has altered my opinion of this : this is a resource about the C
language and C programmers hang out here.

So a guy who has never been there before walks into
services in his local temple and pulls out his
megaphone. He then shouts "I need someone to
explain the Sermon on the Mount to me?". A friendly
Rabbi comes over says "You've got the wrong place.
We don't study that here. There is a Christian
church across the way where there are people
who can explain it properly." The guy bellows
belligerently "Who are you to tell me what to say
and where to say it? This is like a church,
ain't it? You study religion, don't you? Somebody
here must know the answer. And I'm not leaving
until somebody tells me. And besides all religions
basically are the same and Christianity is just an
extension of Judaism and I don't care if you've
done it this way for 4000 years and I'll damn well
discuss it here if I want to!"

Yeah, analogy is slippery. And yes, the whole thing
has the flavor of a religious war, repeated endlessly,
perhaps why I used a religious analogy.

The initial answers to your message(by Ben Pfaff and
Keith Thompson) seemed perfectly appropriate to me. Even
CBFalconer's post seemed reasonable (he tends to be a
bit more abrasive IMHO). I think you over-reacted. I've seen you
post reasonably enough in other threads,
so you hardly seem like a troll to me.

I for one appreciate the group as it mostly is -- focused on
portable C as defined by the standard(s), and not diluted
by discussions of emacs, pthreads, GetProcAddress,
assembly language, C++ (it is at base "just like" C after all),
gdb, etc. I think that use of polite redirects to the
appropriate group to enforce that is a good thing. I think
harshly slapping down people for being off-topic is
counter-productive, as it leads to long pissing wars and
bitterness (e.g. Kenny).

-David

 

[Richard G. Riley]

So a guy who has never been there before walks into
services in his local temple and pulls out his
megaphone. He then shouts "I need someone to
explain the Sermon on the Mount to me?".

There were no friendly rabbis in the thread in question : just some
nosey arses whose opinion, frankly, I wasnt interested in. Fortunately
there are a plethora of posters more interested in helping than
hindering. Some of whom are able to have a healthy debate without
resorting to big brother tactics.

And you make a lot of assumptions of where I have been and when. So as
far as I am concerned I'm not interested in your preachings. You can
join them

 

[David Resnick]

There were no friendly rabbis in the thread in question : just some
nosey arses whose opinion, frankly, I wasnt interested in. Fortunately
there are a plethora of posters more interested in helping than
hindering. Some of whom are able to have a healthy debate without
resorting to big brother tactics.

And you make a lot of assumptions of where I have been and when. So as
far as I am concerned I'm not interested in your preachings. You can
join them

Re-read the thread. If you are at all self-honest, you will see that
the
initial responses:

"You'd be better off asking about this in an Emacs newsgroup. "
"That's not really a C question. Try gnu.emacs. "

Were polite, helpful, and reasonable. As I try to be generally.

But anyway, bye.

-David

 

[Flash Gordon]

There were no friendly rabbis in the thread in question : just some
nosey arses whose opinion, frankly, I wasnt interested in.

So a person to whome you respond, "I will, thanks. This being a C
programmers group though I didnt think it was too OT." is not friendly
but is in the group "just some nosey arses whose opinion, frankly, I
wasnt interested in."

Isn't Google wonderful for pointing out where people are talking
complete bollocks. So that I cant be accused of quoting out of context,
here is the entirety of the post by *you*:

| >> I am looking for a way to integrate the C library documentation
| into
| >> emacs' C mode. Adding any linux library documentation would be a
| >> bonus.
| >>
| >> e.g hilite word, hotkey to library documentation.
| >
| > That's not really a C question. Try gnu.emacs.
|
| I will, thanks. This being a C programmers group though I didnt think
| it was
| too OT.

When it was pointed out that had you lurked longer you would have seen
that this was the wrong group, you queried why this was the wrong group.
Reasons were pointed out and your position grandually changed from
asking why this is the wrong place to insisting this is the correct place.

Putting the best spin on it I can this makes you look like a stubborn
person who refuses to admit the possibility that *you* are wrong, and
the more people point out your error, and the more people who disagree
with you, the more strongly you entrench your position.

You upped the anti and started sounding more insulting by responding to
Vladimir with, "Oh ffs. Another member of this NGs self appoined mafioC."

Vladimire was very reasonable in his response IMHO and you responded
with, "Now you are advising on etiquette? You really are quite the
complete poster."

Then, in response to my first message in the group, you finished with:
| >> And that, for me, is the end of this ridiculous discussion
|
| > Yes, it is ridiculous that you won't accept that your question
| should
| > have been asked else where.
|
| It was : and I didnt get any info so I asked here. Now, I must try and
| not take the bait and put this on the "finished with" list.

Note that you have now switched from thanking someone for suggesting
another group to claiming that you asked there first and *then* came here.

This suggests that you either have a faulty memory (nothing to be
ashamed of, mine is atrocious), or you are trying to revise history to
make it support your point.

> Fortunately
there are a plethora of posters more interested in helping than
hindering. Some of whom are able to have a healthy debate without
resorting to big brother tactics.

And you make a lot of assumptions of where I have been and when. So as
far as I am concerned I'm not interested in your preachings. You can
join them

Well, for this post I did not make any assumptions, nor did I rely on my
own highly fallible memory. Instead I reviewed the entire thread through
Google and could find only one post that had any support for you, but
even that post admitted there were problems with your original request.

The fact is that the only person who has been really impolite in this
thread is *you* using an abbreviation that everyone recognises as
including a swear word, calling the rest of us "blowhards" and so on.

Even those who do sometimes jump harder on people than we should (I've
been called on it before, and apologised publicly for it) have been more
restrained in our language than you.

Perhaps you should review the thread from the start and reconsider what
has happened.
--
Flash Gordon
Living in interesting times.
Web site - http://home.flash-gordon.me.uk/
comp.lang.c posting guidlines and intro -
http://clc-wiki.net/wiki/Intro_to_clc