[EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

[Diez B. Roggisch]

Where does that requirement come from? If you want to create large

I will not go into this 'twisting' games.

Because it renders your point moot?

the requirement "Use of an open-source tool-chain" is nothing special.

There is a OS-tool-chain supported on windows, cygwin.

MinGW is not "every imaginable platform/compliler".

Certainly not - but its one more dependency on an otherwise perfectly
working platform. Now why should there be any need to introduce this
dependency, if not a wide communitity desire is behind it - which seems not
to be the case. And recently, MS released a free version of its compiler.
I'm not sure if that's working for python - but if not, I think it would be
the more important thing to support on _windows_.

I'm not intrested in creating an distribution.

Obviously nobody else is.

I provide an analysis of the situation, context: newcomer, disapointed
from JAVA.

That doesn't belong here. You don't get points for not liking java. And
beside that: I don't like it too, but if I have to use it because my
requirements analysis shows that it is the tool for the job - I use it.
Hopefully with jython somewhere.

So if you find that missing mingw support renders python useless for you,
don't use it. But that would only be the case if you _actually_ create an
extension - something I personally haven't the need for. And I developed
quite large python apps.

Ask the author of the patch. We can't read minds here.

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

Ilias Lazaridis wrote

The idea that the Python Foundation cares about user needs would affect that.

please let the users speak for themselves.

</F>

 

[Robert Kern]

Robert Kern wrote:
[snip]

The answer to most of your questions is, "Because no one has yet
volunteered their time and effort to get the job done."

this answer do not fit in most questions.
>
please review them again.

Against my better judgement, I have.

It certainly fits a, b, and c. It also fits d if you place an implicit
"Yes, " in front of the answer. 4/6. I stick with my assessment.

I ask some questions and suggest some things.

Voluntarlily and without beeing paid.

Questions and suggestions are don't count for much in this community.
Code and well-written patches do.

Stop wasting time on c.l.py and get to work! If you can't do that, then
this is not the community you are looking for.

There are many commercial systems around python.

And yet there is not one company that has someone devoted full-time to
developing Python. Not even Guido. Most of core-Python development
happens in people's spare, unpaid time.

Volunteerism is the core of this community. Trust me.

So please stop this volunteerism-stuff.

No. You are asking others to volunteer their time, or perhaps,
alternately, the PSF and other businesses to volunteer their money to
fund people's time to satisfy *your* wants. I am asking you to volunteer
*your* time to satisfy *your* wants, or alternately, stop writing
questionnaires and bothering us.

Note that this reaction is pretty specific to you and not to other
newcomers. Most newcomers do not carry around a sense of entitlement
that could flatten a small village. Thus, they are treated with respect
and helpfulness. We would appreciate it if you would emulate these
people. On a purely pragmatic note, you have to admit that they are
getting much better help than you are.

If you like to help me and other newcomers, please give me simple some
answers on the initial questions.

I did provide some answers. Please review them again.

--
Robert Kern
(e-mail address removed)

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

[REQUOTE]

Oh, I can play that game too:

[REQUOTE]
Identify what needs to be done and create a patch, and it will be
accepted if it is a good patch.

"
c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the python
source code base?

http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html
"

MinGW patches have been accepted before.

ok

I extract the answer to c)

"MinGW pathces have been accepted before, thus the efforts should be
simply sent in form of patches to the python crew, which will most
possibly accept them, as they are neccessary to compile python under the
popular MinGW compiler"

Start submitting yours.

I don't have

As
you point out, there is stuff on the web that means you will escape the
bulk of the work. But not all of the work.

If the Python Foundation detects the importancy, _every_ user will
escape the 'bulk of the work', as it should be for a serious development.

There is no need that everyone runs in the same traps, due to some
missing organization in the core-project.

Since you are intent on whining rather than doing the work I'm
ignoring this thread now. Good luck.

Thank you for your answers and your time.

..

 

[Brian Beck]

> this answer do not fit in most questions.
>
> please review them again.

Actually, it does. Please review them again.

My questions:
>
a) Why does the Python Foundation not provide additionally a binary version, compiled with MinGW or another open-source compiler?

Because no one has yet volunteered their time and effort to get the job
done.

b) Why does the Python Foundation not ensure, that the python source-code is directly compilable with MinGW?

Because no one has yet volunteered their time and effort to get the job
done.

c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the python source code base?

Because no one has yet volunteered their time and effort to get the job
done.

d) Is it really neccessary that I dive into such adventures, to be able to do the most natural thing like: "developing python extensions with MinGW"?

Yes, because no one has yet volunteered their time and effort to get the
job done.

f) Are there any official (Python Foundation) statements / rationales available, which explain why the MinGW compiler is unsupported, although parts of the community obviously like to use it?

The most likely response you will get is: Because no one has yet
volunteered their time and effort to get the job done.

I ask some questions and suggest some things.

Voluntarlily and without beeing paid.

What a martyr you are.

There are many commercial systems around python.

So please stop this volunteerism-stuff.

If the support you're looking for is beneficial to your commercial
application a.k.a. business, then why aren't you making it happen?
Obviously the existing commercial development teams are doing fine
without it, otherwise it would exist. Even then, a commercial developer
providing their development work to enhance the standard Python
distribution IS volunteering.

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Ilias Lazaridis wrote


please let the users speak for themselves.

I have.

I've review several threads,publications, actions etc., that show that
the users have this need.

please review the initial thread with care, i've pointed to some
documents/thread.

..

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Hello,

there is a thread in comp.lang.python, and a poster suggested that I ask
you directly.

possibly you can answer the question c), at least from your side.

Did you ever try to submit the patches to the main-source-code base of
python?

Thank you for your pyMinGW work and your time.

-

I'm a newcomer to python:

[EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/75f0c5c35374f553


-

I've download (as suggested) the python 2.4 installer for windows.

Now I have problems to compile python extension that some packages
depend on.

I use the MinGW open-source compiler.

-

My questions:

a) Why does the Python Foundation not provide additionally a binary
version, compiled with MinGW or another open-source compiler?

b) Why does the Python Foundation not ensure, that the python
source-code is directly compilable with MinGW?

c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the
python source code base?

http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

above link found in this thread:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/c9f0444c467de525


d) Is it really neccessary that I dive into such adventures, to be
able to do the most natural thing like: "developing python extensions
with MinGW"?

http://starship.python.net/crew/kernr/mingw32/Notes.html

e) Is there any official statement available regarding the
msvcr71.dll and other MS licensing issues?

[see several threads "[Python-Dev] Is msvcr71.dll
re-redistributable?"]

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2005-February/thread.html


f) Are there any official (Python Foundation) statements / rationales
available, which explain why the MinGW compiler is unsupported,
although parts of the community obviously like to use it?

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/dc3474e6c8053336


-

I just want to understand.

Thankfull for any pointer to official documents / statements.

[google is _not_ a fried here. I like to have a stable development
environment, which is supported by the official projects, thus it can
pass quality-assurance without beeing afraid about every next
release.]

..

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Because it renders your point moot?

no, my requirement renders your 'twisting' 'moot'.

see next line.

There is a OS-tool-chain supported on windows, cygwin.

this depends on cygwin.dll, which is GPL licensed

[or am I wrong?]

additionally: i like to use MinGW.

Certainly not - but its one more dependency on an otherwise perfectly

[...] - (twisting)

again twisting.

I have a simple requirement.

please do not ignore it.

Obviously nobody else is.

Including the Python Foundation.

That doesn't belong here. You don't get points for not liking java.

[...] - (off topic)

[Python Foundation/Community can use this, to attract more users.
The analysis is not the main topic here.]

An essential requirement is the topic.

Ask the author of the patch. We can't read minds here.

you are right, this can clarify at least the one side.

I've contacted him, see my post in the root of this thread.

..

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Actually, it does. Please review them again.


Because no one has yet volunteered their time and effort to get the
job done.

[...]

thank you for placing the answers in context.

What a martyr you are.

like all the open-source folks?

If the support you're looking for is beneficial to your commercial
application a.k.a. business, then why aren't you making it happen?

I am in the process of doing so.

First I have to analyze the status-quo.

Which is not very simple with such a community.

Obviously the existing commercial development teams are doing fine
without it, otherwise it would exist. Even then, a commercial
developer providing their development work to enhance the standard
Python distribution IS volunteering.

One of the most funny things within open-source is that switching:

first:
"we have powerfull solutions which beat this and that"

then:
"hey, this is just volunteer work"

-

I was impressed by zope and plone.

But if those answers above were of official nature, I must seriously
rethink if I can rely on _any_ system which is based on python, as the
foundation and the community do not care about essential needs and
requirements.

..

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Robert Kern wrote: [snip]

The answer to most of your questions is, "Because no one has yet
volunteered their time and effort to get the job done."

this answer do not fit in most questions.

please review them again.

Against my better judgement, I have.

It certainly fits a, b, and c. It also fits d if you place an implicit
"Yes, " in front of the answer. 4/6. I stick with my assessment.

see below.

[...]

Questions and suggestions are don't count for much in this community.
Code and well-written patches do.

Stop wasting time on c.l.py and get to work! If you can't do that, then
this is not the community you are looking for.

Please speak for yourself.

And yet there is not one company that has someone devoted full-time to
developing Python. Not even Guido.

Who's "Guido"?

Most of core-Python development happens in people's spare, unpaid time.

Volunteerism is the core of this community. Trust me.

even if:

Volunteerism does not exclude Professionalism.

No. You are asking others to volunteer their time, or perhaps,
alternately, the PSF and other businesses to volunteer their money to
fund people's time to satisfy *your* wants. I am asking you to volunteer
*your* time to satisfy *your* wants,

I'm already doing this.

or alternately, stop writing questionnaires and bothering us.

Feel free to ignore the threads.

And please speak for yourself.

Note that this reaction is pretty specific to you and not to other
newcomers. Most newcomers do not carry around a sense of entitlement
that could flatten a small village. Thus, they are treated with respect
and helpfulness. We would appreciate it if you would emulate these
people. On a purely pragmatic note, you have to admit that they are
getting much better help than you are.

I get the help that I want.

I did provide some answers. Please review them again.

Please have the gentleness [against me and the current/future readers]
to answer within the context of the original writings.

..

 

[Duncan Booth]

There is a OS-tool-chain supported on windows, cygwin.

this depends on cygwin.dll, which is GPL licensed

[or am I wrong?]

It is GPL licensed with an amendment which prevents the GPL spreading to
other open source software with which it is linked.

"In accordance with section 10 of the GPL, Red Hat, Inc. permits programs
whose sources are distributed under a license that complies with the Open
Source definition to be linked with libcygwin.a without libcygwin.a itself
causing the resulting program to be covered by the GNU GPL."

 

[Simon Brunning]

(snip)

But if those answers above were of official nature, I must seriously
rethink if I can rely on _any_ system which is based on python, as the
foundation and the community do not care about essential needs and
requirements.

I couldn't agree more. You need to find a community that *does* care
about essential needs. Might I recommend Perl or Ruby?

 

[Diez B. Roggisch]

One of the most funny things within open-source is that switching:

first:
"we have powerfull solutions which beat this and that"

then:
"hey, this is just volunteer work"

I don't see the contradiction here. It beats a great deal of commercial
solutions in a lot of ways. But not on every single one of these. And the
_reason_ for beating commercial software in certain aspects is exactly that
somebody stood up and volunteered. Obviously you aren't interested in the
more labour-intensive parts of the os-development.

But if those answers above were of official nature, I must seriously
rethink if I can rely on _any_ system which is based on python, as the
foundation and the community do not care about essential needs and
requirements.

They might not care about _your_ perceived essential needs. But as lots of
people use python and python based solutions with great commercial success,
you might think of reviewing your needs more critical. After all, there is
no _perfect_ system for all needs.

 

[bruno modulix]

(snip)




I couldn't agree more. You need to find a community that *does* care
about essential needs. Might I recommend Perl or Ruby?

Why do you hate Perl and Ruby community that much ?

 

[bruno modulix]

I'm a newcomer to python:

[EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/75f0c5c35374f553

My trollometer's beeping...

 

[Simon Brunning]

Why do you hate Perl and Ruby community that much ?

Oh, I don't. But fair's fair - we've carried our share of the burden, surely?

But-don't-get-me-started-on-those-Groovy-bastards-ly Y'rs,
Simon B,
(e-mail address removed),
http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/

 

[Stephen Kellett]

this answer do not fit in most questions.

please review them again.

There you go. Failed the test. He is an AI. A human wouldn't make this
mistake.

Stephen

 

[Stephen Kellett]

Hi Robert,

Note that this reaction is pretty specific to you and not to other
newcomers.

I couldn't agree more. This guy is amazing, I think he is an AI or
nowhere near as bright as he thinks he is. Seems to get the same
reaction regardless of newsgroup or language. His reaction to the Ruby
crowd almost seemed incendiary - pretty much accused them of having a
lame language.

Most newcomers do not carry around a sense of entitlement that could
flatten a small village.

That has to rate as one of the funniest things I've read on usenet in
years.

Cheers

Stephen

 

[Stephen Kellett]

Who's "Guido"?

LOL Falling off my chair!!!!!!

 

[Stephen Kellett]

the community do not care about essential needs and requirements.

Wrong. They do. They just don't care about *your* essential needs and
requirements which *you* want *others* to fulfill at *their* cost. As
others have said, "do some work yourself".

Stephen