IDE

[Steve Menard]

I agree. I think there are a few other developers on the project that
will take over where Aleks leaves off. I will definitely get involved
in the future as time permits. I think this project will rock if we
could integrate jpype when it is ready (http://jpype.sourceforge.net/).

But you are correct - you do need some sort of type system in the
language to get all the features of the Java editor. You could do some
rudimentary stuff (like the way Pythonwin works for instance) right
away. The big thing we need is a *real* debugger - the editor stuff can
come later.
Seeing just how amazing Eclipse is for Java development makes me wonder
if the designers of Java had more than the language in mind when
developing it. Perhaps they were thinking ahead to the future of the
IDE they would use to develop the language....

Markus.

Regarding JPype and Eclipse

Actually you are right. When I started JPype I immediatly saw where it
could help in eclipse. Let's face it, people interested in a Python
editor will not want to spend long hours coding it ... in Java.

I do not know how easy it will be to implement Eclipse plugins/extension
in Python, but I sure will try.

Steve Menard

 

[Jussi Jumppanen]

I've also tried their VisualPython and didnt really think it was
any better, though a hell of a lot more expensive (and still no
Brief keyboard mappings).

Zeus for Windows (shareware) has Brief emulation, is scriptable
using python macros and comes pre-configured for python, but as
the name suggests it only runs on the Windows platform:

http://www.zeusedit.com/lookmain.html

Jussi Jumppanen

 

[Peter Hansen]

Wolfgang> I think the project is very activ:
Wolfgang> pydev 0.5, the katzenmeyer kids July 12, 2004
Wolfgang> if the developer is losing interest, he does it on a
Wolfgang> very hight level.

Apparently he's "finishing" it.

From http://pydev.sourceforge.net/ :
Future My plans for the future are:

[snip plans]

Actually, it's nice to see that the developer has an exit
strategy. Sounds like one of the more promising projects
on SourceForge from that statement alone... too many
people (myself included) start projects there without the
slightest plan for the future, including how to hand it off
when we get tired and need to move on.

Just because the one who initiated it has plans to leave,
at some not clearly defined point in the future, doesn't
mean the project will fail. It just means the fellow is
realistic and has good experience in open source dev...

-Peter

 

[Paul Morrow]

I agree. I've tried Komodo, Wing, and all the free ones, and Komodo is
far and away the most polished.

I liked Komodo when I tried it too, but really wished that it had a
class browser. I asked the folks at ActiveState about that and they
said that it wasn't a planned addition at this time.

Unlike the earlier (and currently stable) version of Wing, Wing 2.0 beta
sports a lot of "polish". The IDE has been substantially rewritten,
using (I believe) the QT gui library (you can see the new look from the
screen shots on the wingware web site).

 

[Markus Wankus]

It looks like I might begin working with Eclipse as part of my job,
developing plugins for our internal use. Having Python support would
therefore be useful; is anyone else interested in helping to maintain
Eclipse/Python support?

--amk

I'd be up for it. I can totally sympathize with the developer of pydev
about the PITA that Eclipse can be - but you gotta admit there is a HUGE
amount of functionality there for free. I can say that because I've had
a relatively productive week developing Eclipse. Some weeks are worse
than others... ;o)

Markus.

 

[Stephen Boulet]

Unlike the earlier (and currently stable) version of Wing, Wing 2.0 beta
sports a lot of "polish". The IDE has been substantially rewritten,
using (I believe) the QT gui library (you can see the new look from the
screen shots on the wingware web site).

I see some files with 'gtk' in their names in the install directory, so
maybe that's what they are using. If so I've never seen gtk look so good.

For you people with eclipse experience, does their gui toolkit wrap just
motif on linux (why oh why)? I wonder what the potential for developing
gui apps under eclipse with python is.

Stephem

 

[Skip Montanaro]

Ville> Too bad Emacs seems to lack the development energy these days to
Ville> match the features of modern IDEs.

Dilution of the development community by the continued rift between the GNU
Emacs and XEmacs folks doesn't help...

Skip

 

[Nick Vargish]

but Emacs and I will never be best friends.

That would require mutual respect. I love Emacs, but I often feel that it
barely tolerates me.

Nick

 

[Nick Vargish]

Personally I think its hard to look past Komodo these days:

I like Komodo a lot, but without an OS X version it's of limited use
to me.

(X)Emacs is still the winner -- runs on all platforms, and has a text
mode for the times I'm logged into a system through a terminal
emulator.

Nick

 

[Shawn Wheatley]

I like Komodo a lot, but without an OS X version it's of limited use
to me.

(X)Emacs is still the winner -- runs on all platforms, and has a text
mode for the times I'm logged into a system through a terminal
emulator.

Has anybody else conceded defeat there isn't a be-all, end-all text
editor for them? I've mostly just decided to look for an editor on
each platform that has the core functionality I want (key combos I
expect, code folding, etc.), but integrates well with the platform I'm
on. For example, I do mostly .NET work in Visual Studio at work. So
when I'm doing Python at work, it makes the most sense to use
ActiveState's Python add-in for VS.NET. When I'm on Linux, it might
be Komodo, or Eric3, or a stand-alone text editor.

I'd like to have a One True Editor, but in all my years of programming
(10 or so? , I've never felt comfortable in either Emacs or Vi(m)

Shawn

 

[Thomas Lindgaard]

That would require mutual respect. I love Emacs, but I often feel that it
barely tolerates me.

Heh

 

[Lajos Kuljo]

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:27:42 -0400, Nick Vargish wrote:

In this tread nobody mentioned Trolltech's Qt-Designer. Why?
Regards Lajos

 

[Markus Wankus]

I see some files with 'gtk' in their names in the install directory, so
maybe that's what they are using. If so I've never seen gtk look so good.

For you people with eclipse experience, does their gui toolkit wrap just
motif on linux (why oh why)? I wonder what the potential for developing
gui apps under eclipse with python is.

Stephem

Well, Eclipse uses SWT - which has binaries for each platform, and
various flavours of Linux, in particular there is a GTK2 version and a
Motif version. I don't know much about it - but here is what the
website says:

For Win32: Windows 98, ME, NT, 2000, and Server 2003; SWT HTML viewer requires Internet Explorer 5 (or higher). For GTK on other Linux systems: version 2.2.1 of the GTK+ widget toolkit and associated librares (GLib, Pango); SWT HTML viewer requires Mozilla 1.4GTK2. For Motif on other Linux systems: Open Motif 2.1 (included); SWT HTML viewer requires Mozilla 1.4GTK2.

An early access version of Eclipse is available for 64-bit Linux GTK. Testing has been limited to early access 64-bit J2SEs running on AMD64 processors.

SWT is also supported on the QNX Neutrino operating system, x86 processor, Photon window system, and IBM J9 VM version 2.0. Eclipse 3.0 on Windows or Linux can be used cross develop QNX applications. (Eclipse 3.0 is unavailable on QNX because there is currently no 1.4 J2SE for QNX.)

In terms of developing GUI apps - I think a SWT Python wrapper would
rule. It has a *very* similar feel to wxWidgets. The problem is there
is a small binary for each OS, but a big swt.jar file with most of the
platform-neutral code in it. I've played with Jython and SWT and used
Python to open up a Hello World window - but it definitely would not be
ready for a real app without some wrappers being written...

Markus.

 

[Lajos Kuljo]

.....

Have you ever heard of the Kompany's BlackAdder? I can't use it because
there is no GPL distribution (I'm retired and I've no money for software).
Lajos

 

[Steve Menard]

Well, Eclipse uses SWT - which has binaries for each platform, and
various flavours of Linux, in particular there is a GTK2 version and a
Motif version. I don't know much about it - but here is what the
website says:




In terms of developing GUI apps - I think a SWT Python wrapper would
rule. It has a *very* similar feel to wxWidgets. The problem is there
is a small binary for each OS, but a big swt.jar file with most of the
platform-neutral code in it. I've played with Jython and SWT and used
Python to open up a Hello World window - but it definitely would not be
ready for a real app without some wrappers being written...

Markus.

There is an alternative. If you want to use SWT with python, look at
http://jpype.sourceforge.net

Steve

 

[Markus Wankus]

There is an alternative. If you want to use SWT with python, look at
http://jpype.sourceforge.net

Cool... Not that it is an issue, but I assume you will have 2 JVM's
running (Java and Python) to do this?

Markus.

 

[Markus Wankus]

Cool... Not that it is an issue, but I assume you will have 2 JVM's
running (Java and Python) to do this?

Ooops...obviously I meant 2 *VM*'s (not JVM's).

Markus

 

[Eric S. Johansson]

Ville> Too bad Emacs seems to lack the development energy these days
to Ville> match the features of modern IDEs.

Dilution of the development community by the continued rift between
the GNU Emacs and XEmacs folks doesn't help...

not to mention they keep insisting on using lisp...

seriously, Emacs has the problem of increasingly large hurdles for its
users. I've been an Emacs users since 17.something and for many years,
I was carrying around my .Emacs file from place to place like a hobo's
bindlestiff. but in the past few years I've stopped. I just use
package defaults and default packages. It's become too
difficult to keep track of changes, update .emacs and replicate to the
10 or 15 machines (this month) that I'm using. Additionally, many
packages have become just too obnoxious to configure and use especially
with my limited hand ability. gnus and tramp have been the worst of
recent experience.

I do believe we could make this better by leading the way. I propose
reworking python mode using python via the Emacs python
extension. By lowering the barriers to entry, it's possible one could
rejuvenate development of applications within Emacs.

of course that doesn't solve the problem of propagating configuration
file changes to billions of machines but that's a different problem for
a different mailing list.

---eric

 

[Steve Menard]

Ooops...obviously I meant 2 *VM*'s (not JVM's).

Markus

hehe I was going to point it out

And the asnwer is yes. I am embedding the JVM inside Python's. This is
a memory hit for sure, but Python's memory usage is pretty lean as it
is, and Java's is getting better.

Steve

 

[Steve Menard]

not to mention they keep insisting on using lisp...

seriously, Emacs has the problem of increasingly large hurdles for its
users. I've been an Emacs users since 17.something and for many years,
I was carrying around my .Emacs file from place to place like a hobo's
bindlestiff. but in the past few years I've stopped. I just use
package defaults and default packages. It's become too
difficult to keep track of changes, update .emacs and replicate to the
10 or 15 machines (this month) that I'm using. Additionally, many
packages have become just too obnoxious to configure and use especially
with my limited hand ability. gnus and tramp have been the worst of
recent experience.

I do believe we could make this better by leading the way. I propose
reworking python mode using python via the Emacs python
extension. By lowering the barriers to entry, it's possible one could
rejuvenate development of applications within Emacs.

of course that doesn't solve the problem of propagating configuration
file changes to billions of machines but that's a different problem for
a different mailing list.

---eric

Here's an idea : how hard would it be to replace emacs's ELIP
interpreter with Python, and translate the "main" ELISP modules to python?

I would love being able to use something like emacs and custimize it to
my hearts content. ELISP, however, just does not fit in my brain.

Steve