In the Matter of Herb Schildt: a Detailed Analysis of "C: TheComplete Nonsense"

B

BruceS

So are you saying that Microsoft's technical employees are not
expected to work more than about 40 hours a week?  That would be
a pleasant surprise if true -- which I suppose it could be.

I had the opportunity to talk casually to a couple of Microsoft
developers while my employer was in a cooperative project with
Microsoft. They told me that the schedules at M$ are very loose.
When everything is working well, they put in short hours, spend time
playing Frisbee at work, etc. At other times, they work very long
hours, essentially living at work and just going home for a little
sleep. I asked how long it had been since they were on the "loose"
schedule, and they said it had been several years. They described a
work environment that I would call a sweat shop, with workers
accepting the conditions because (theoretically) there was the flip
side (a sweet shop?) some of the time. That flip side just kept not
happening. One could call that corporate abuse of workers, but since
they can quit at any time, they bring it on themselves. At the other
end of the spectrum, my current client won't allow me to work overtime
without specific permission. So far this contract, I've averaged a
bit under 40 hours per week. However, they don't do this out of the
goodness of their hearts, but rather as a way to avoid spending too
much on me, as I'm paid hourly.
 
S

Seebs

I had the opportunity to talk casually to a couple of Microsoft
developers while my employer was in a cooperative project with
Microsoft. They told me that the schedules at M$ are very loose.
When everything is working well, they put in short hours, spend time
playing Frisbee at work, etc. At other times, they work very long
hours, essentially living at work and just going home for a little
sleep. I asked how long it had been since they were on the "loose"
schedule, and they said it had been several years.

Yeah. MS is famous for this.

$ork is serious about it. Yes, we've had periods of long hours -- twice,
shortly before releases, since I got here. We've also been given
compensation for putting in the extra hours. Not always quite hour-for-hour
matching, but close enough for my purposes.

It also helps that if we tell management a schedule is unrealistic, they
usually listen to us, and adapt the schedule to match reality.

-s
 
K

Keith Thompson

Also, I checked
his Mom's blog...which is public, to find her protesting the
affirmative expansion of science classes to minorities, which
indicates a sort of social background of mistrust and reluctance to
engage.

Can you provide a specific reference to one such post? The link
from Seebs's Web page (at http://www.seebs.net) to his mother's column
appears to be broken. Googling, I found this
[URL deleted]

which I think is the right person, but in a quick skim of the first
few entries I don't find anything like what you describe.
[...]

Ok, so Nilges wrote about something that Seebs's mother is
alleged to have posted on her blog. Fine, we've come to expect that
kind of crap from him.

Why the *&%^ are you discussing it with him? In public? Here in
comp.lang.c? Even if what Nilges is true, what possible relevance
could it have to the C language, to Schildt, or to anything that
anyone here could possible care about? Must you reply in public to
every sentence he writes?

I believe that the e-mail address under which Nilges posts is valid.
If you really want to discuss Seebs's mother's blog with him, feel
free to do so by e-mail. Or perhaps you could find another newsgroup
or forum where it's topical. Create an alt.* group for the purpose if
you like.

Please please *please* stop feeding the troll.
 
S

Squeamizh

Are they. Hm, where's *my* corporate support ....

Hey, B.L. Barnaby (yes, I know that is not your real name, but I'm
allowing you to indulge your fantasy of being the circus clown of the
forum), at this time I must ask you the following questions. Do you
derive amusement from responding to spinoza's incomprehensible
ramblings? Are you pleased with yourself when you give Seebs more
ammo to further pollute this group with responses to these threads?
How on Earth have you not realized that spinoza is too pleased with
himself to ever contribute anything in the way of a productive
discussion of ideas?
 
S

Seebs

Ok, so Nilges wrote about something that Seebs's mother is
alleged to have posted on her blog. Fine, we've come to expect that
kind of crap from him.

Actually, I have to dispute this. I was absolutely shocked that
he actually managed to successfully identify my mom. (To save him
trouble, the UFO nut "Linda Seebach" is a different person.)
Why the *&%^ are you discussing it with him? In public? Here in
comp.lang.c? Even if what Nilges is true, what possible relevance
could it have to the C language, to Schildt, or to anything that
anyone here could possible care about? Must you reply in public to
every sentence he writes?

I think it's like watching a train wreck. It's utterly fascinating
trying to find some kind of connection between the various things
he says. I just think it's a waste of bandwidth. He should come
over to one of the vB boards where it won't bother other people and
he can post nonsense to his heart's content.

Of course, he won't do that if the whole thing is just an attempt
to destroy comp.lang.c over some imagined slight.

-s
 
K

Keith Thompson

Seebs said:
I think it's like watching a train wreck. It's utterly fascinating
trying to find some kind of connection between the various things
he says. I just think it's a waste of bandwidth.
[...]

It's more like showing up at a train wreck with a can of gasoline and
a book of matches.

(Yeah, that's a gross exaggeration and probably an inappropriate
comparison, but ...)
 
K

Kenny McCormack

Can you provide a specific reference to one such post? The link
from Seebs's Web page (at http://www.seebs.net) to his mother's column
appears to be broken. Googling, I found this

http://www.lindaseebach.net/wordpress/

which I think is the right person, but in a quick skim of the first
few entries I don't find anything like what you describe.

You have to dig a bit. For some reason, Ms. Seebs put only a teaser on
her page - you have to go to "bigjournalism.com" and then put "seebach"
in the "Search" box. Then the article comes up.

I'm not sure it says exactly what Nilges says it does, but it is
abundantly clear which side of the political spectrum the seebs are on -
just from the general tone (read: teabagger) of the site and the text in
her article.

It explains a lot about why Seebs fits in well with the other Bible
bangers here in clc.

--
(This discussion group is about C, ...)

Wrong. It is only OCCASIONALLY a discussion group
about C; mostly, like most "discussion" groups, it is
off-topic Rorsharch revelations of the childhood
traumas of the participants...
 
D

David Thompson

spinoza1111 <[email protected]> wrote:
It may be that all(?) of the ways of invoking a program in a
Windows environment ignore its return value. This is not the
case in all operating systems:
The Win32-standard command processor CMD.EXE can check (easily
although a tad uglily), and I'm pretty sure the earlier and generally
less powerful MSDOS COMMAND.COM also. The two other ways I commonly
use, mingw (port of) gawk and ActiveState (port of) perl, also do,
although perl uses the (annoying) Unix form of shifting left 8 bits.

It is not as standard/conventional among Windows *programs* to provide
meaningful exit values as it is among Unix ones, so it is not as often
*useful* to check, but it is possible.

However, doubleclicking (or select+Open/etc) on a desktop icon or
file-explorer entry, for the program or a file associated with it, or
Start / Run (or CMD START), do discard the exit value. And the first
of these is the only way used by many naive users, and the two of them
together IME used often even by power users, so this is an important
even if technically exceptional case.
Command shells for UNIX-like systems may (usually do?) provide
access to the return value via an environment variable, and some
shell scripts make use of it. Other mechanisms for invoking
programs (e.g., fork/exec*/waitpid) also provide access to the
return code.
A shell variable, but not an environment variable; though often
conflated those aren't quite the same thing. And Unix shells can also
use the exit value implicitly: 'if foo; then bar; fi' runs foo, and if
it exits successfully (defined as 0) then the shell runs bar,
otherwise it doesn't. Similarly for while, &&, ||. In addition to many
(not all, as above) Unix-designed programs returning a usable status
as a side-effect of their 'primary' operation, there have long been
some programs, most notably 'test', whose *only* purpose is to return
a status value; newer shells like bash often have this functionality
builtin but systems often still have the external program also.
And didn't JCL for the venerable IBM OS/VS operating system(s) use
the value returned by a called program to control execution flow?
That's how I remember it anyway.
All versions/descendants of OS/360, yes. But very limited 'control',
basically just continue or stop/abort.

And of course there's VMS, frequently cited here because it had a
whole complex scheme of status values in which zero meant (a) failure,
so C exit(0) or exit(EXIT_SUCCESS) had to actually map to something
nonzero -- perhaps 1, the simplest (but very not only) success.
 
B

blmblm

But, but ....

http://xkcd.com/386/

(Attempt at humor. There's probably little point in protesting
that I don't respond to *everything*, since apparently I'm setting
the bar too low.)
I think it's like watching a train wreck. It's utterly fascinating
trying to find some kind of connection between the various things
he says. I just think it's a waste of bandwidth.
[...]

It's more like showing up at a train wreck with a can of gasoline and
a book of matches.

(Yeah, that's a gross exaggeration and probably an inappropriate
comparison, but ...)

But just accurate enough to be disturbing. Even more disturbing
are the replies from some of the anti-Seebs regulars(?) ("circus
clown"?). Point taken, okay?
 
B

blmblm

The Win32-standard command processor CMD.EXE can check (easily
although a tad uglily), and I'm pretty sure the earlier and generally
less powerful MSDOS COMMAND.COM also. The two other ways I commonly
use, mingw (port of) gawk and ActiveState (port of) perl, also do,
although perl uses the (annoying) Unix form of shifting left 8 bits.

It is not as standard/conventional among Windows *programs* to provide
meaningful exit values as it is among Unix ones, so it is not as often
*useful* to check, but it is possible.

However, doubleclicking (or select+Open/etc) on a desktop icon or
file-explorer entry, for the program or a file associated with it, or
Start / Run (or CMD START), do discard the exit value. And the first
of these is the only way used by many naive users, and the two of them
together IME used often even by power users, so this is an important
even if technically exceptional case.

Helpful information; thanks. I have essentially zero experience
programming in a Windows environment. (Correcting that is on my
long-term "to do" list, but -- it's a long list.)
A shell variable, but not an environment variable; though often
conflated those aren't quite the same thing.

Nitpick accepted!
And Unix shells can also
use the exit value implicitly: 'if foo; then bar; fi' runs foo, and if
it exits successfully (defined as 0) then the shell runs bar,
otherwise it doesn't. Similarly for while, &&, ||. In addition to many
(not all, as above) Unix-designed programs returning a usable status
as a side-effect of their 'primary' operation, there have long been
some programs, most notably 'test', whose *only* purpose is to return
a status value; newer shells like bash often have this functionality
builtin but systems often still have the external program also.

Yes, quite.
All versions/descendants of OS/360, yes. But very limited 'control',
basically just continue or stop/abort.

That's how I remember it too.
And of course there's VMS, frequently cited here because it had a
whole complex scheme of status values in which zero meant (a) failure,
so C exit(0) or exit(EXIT_SUCCESS) had to actually map to something
nonzero -- perhaps 1, the simplest (but very not only) success.

Yes ....

Okay, so a question:

I can easily imagine ways of invoking a program that *allow* it
to return a value but don't *require* it to, in the sense that
there are no spectacular failures if it doesn't. (I'm thinking
here about the OS/360 convention of putting the return value in
register 15 -- a program that takes no definite action to put
something sensible in r15 still leaves *something* there.)

But I'm vaguely remembering that on some systems there are ways
of invoking a program that do produce spectacular failures if
it doesn't "return a value" -- something about not following
conventions about stack usage??

Am I totally misremembering/confused?
 
L

lawrence.jones

David Thompson said:
And of course there's VMS, frequently cited here because it had a
whole complex scheme of status values in which zero meant (a) failure,

Actually, zero is a schizophrenic status code: the corresponding message
is "%SYSTEM-W-NORMAL, normal successful completion", where the "W"
indicates a warning. Given the frequency with which my programs
complete successfully, a warning might be appropriate!
 
S

Seebs

I can easily imagine ways of invoking a program that *allow* it
to return a value but don't *require* it to, in the sense that
there are no spectacular failures if it doesn't. (I'm thinking
here about the OS/360 convention of putting the return value in
register 15 -- a program that takes no definite action to put
something sensible in r15 still leaves *something* there.)

Right. And in some cases (especially in C99), that can even
be cleverly managed by the compiler.
But I'm vaguely remembering that on some systems there are ways
of invoking a program that do produce spectacular failures if
it doesn't "return a value" -- something about not following
conventions about stack usage??

I believe I've heard of implementations where a mismatched return
type will indeed produce spectacular failures -- say, if someone
tries to call a function returning int, but the function actually
called returns void, the return goes to the wrong place entirely
and Bad Stuff Happens.

Haven't seen one, usually all I see is stack garbage. Although
that can produce surprises sometimes too.

-s
 
S

spinoza1111

spinoza1111  said:

[ snip ]
Got it. But the ambiguity of "the number of occurences" remains.

And?  As best I can tell, you're critiquing code I didn't write.

Now, it's true that the function in my code that counts how many
replacements are needed is called count_occurrences.  But I think
the ambiguity is resolved by the comments -- or at least that
was my intent:

/*
 * count occurrences of old_text in s, scanning left to right and
 * ignoring overlapping occurrences
 */
size_t count_occurrences(const char* s, const char* old_text) {
    char* first;
    if (x_strlen(s) == 0) return 0;
    first = x_strstr(s, old_text);
    if (first == NULL) return 0;
    return 1 + count_occurrences(first + x_strlen(old_text), old_text);

}

(Functions x_strlen and x_strstr are either the string.h library
functions or user-written substitutes.)

Possibly some other wording would be even less ambiguous.  <shrug>

I'm still curious about what you meant by "requirements study", when
you said upthread:

'You claim simplicity as the virtue of your code but you didn't do a
"requirements" study imo.'

[ snip ]
I take it you disapprove.

Yes.  Mildly, but yes.
Well, I disapprove of someone trying to ruin
Schildt's reputation to puff his own, and I think my recreational
sexism is nothing in comparision.

I don't find that the one excuses the other.  <shrug>

[ snip ]
Babe, it's far more than "mildly" disrespectful to coin neologisms
such as "Bullschildt" and "Nilgewater" out of patronyms,

Agreed said:
and in
response I won't only coin Dweebach: I'll write original limericks in
Peter's honor:

[ snip ]

[ snip ]
Remember the expert, who avoids minor errors while sweeping on to the
grand fallacy? We all know that MS-DOS is no longer viable.
And?





But it's a mistake to believe that Linux is the answer. As the
(textbook author and professor) Andrew Tanenbaum pointed out, Linux as
compared to the MORE MODERN technology of microkernel OSen, is
innately insecure, less reliable and maintainable. Tanenbaum had a
"flame war" with Torvalds over this. He graciously apologized for some
of his flames; Torvalds did not, and failed to credit Tanenbaum for
Minix on which Linux was based. This was Maoism; the assault on
midlevel academic authority in the service of big money and power.
Far more than Windows, Linux is in the service of big money and power
since it is the product of slave labor. That is, each coder who
contributed to any version was a time-sliced slave. He might have been
a happy slave, but these are the best kind.
This allowed IBM, a larger and more powerful (and somewhat less
principled) company than Microsoft, to lay off its proprietary OS
developers and save the big bucks. It started with Torvalds' attack on
and expropriation of, Tanenbaum. These are as far as I can tell the
objective facts even if Tanenbaum expressed respect for Torvalds,
since computer science departments are so supported by corporate
interests that most of their professors lack true intellectual
independence.

Are they.  Hm, where's *my* corporate support ....  

[ snip ]
Expects deliverables. And to reduce hours, expects a deliverable, on
many of its projects, at 5:00 PM every day. This deliverable may be a
simple return, or the final product.

So are you saying that Microsoft's technical employees are not
expected to work more than about 40 hours a week?  That would be
a pleasant surprise if true -- which I suppose it could be.

My understanding is that if you deliver, you can work 20 hours a week.
That's what I was told in my 1986 interview, which I hosed.
[ snip ]




Being self-taught in your sense might indicate interest and
committment, but in a company with tuition refund, not beating your
ass on over to NYU, Stanford or even DeVry might also indicate vanity
and reluctance to be exposed to the Other. I say this because in Peter
I detect this reluctance, most strongly from his not even reading the
first email from me when I tried to resolve the "flame war". He also
acted bizarrely as regards Schildt, refusing an offer from McGraw Hill
possibly because this might have meant an encounter. Also, I checked
his Mom's blog...which is public, to find her protesting the
affirmative expansion of science classes to minorities, which
indicates a sort of social background of mistrust and reluctance to
engage.

Can you provide a specific reference to one such post?  The link
from Seebs's Web page (athttp://www.seebs.net) to his mother's column
appears to be broken.  Googling, I found this

http://www.lindaseebach.net/wordpress/

which I think is the right person, but in a quick skim of the first
few entries I don't find anything like what you describe.

http://bigjournalism.com/lseebach/2...-between-excellence-and-equity/#idc-container

Mrs. Seebach links to her rather well-written and reasoned defense of
preserving funding for Advanced Placement science preparation, against
efforts to redistribute resources to minority students in the Berkeley
school system in California (which includes students from a much
poorer Oakland).

However, I sense in her a desire to defend privilege. For one thing, I
think Advanced Placement is misused by many students (esp. middle
class students) to avoid "having to take" "boring" survey classes lest
they be exposed to some professor's possibly idiosyncratic views: as
if learning is in no way a social thing. In this attitude I see
Peter's absurd pride in never having taken computer science classes.

In wanting to "AP out", the student wants to avoid a particular
viewpoint in fear that the viewpoint, like Herb's MS-DOS focus, might
not be the "right" viewpoint. However, there is no such thing as the
"right viewpoint". A viewpoint, like a taxonomy, is neither right nor
wrong.

For another, I think that the needs of the least well off do indeed
trump in this case the needs of more privileged students. Indeed, the
very fact that the AP students want to avoid, a bit later at
university, exposure to professors and students in "boring" survey
classes (and in Peter's case, wanted to avoid computer science
altogether while at the same time wanting to be a programmer), means
that students who need and want to take the basics should be funded by
taking money away from AP science.

If you have as much contempt for professors and authors as is often
manifested here, don't take it away from people who have more respect
for learning. And: my direct experience at Roosevelt University and
DeVry in Chicago is that American black people (especially women, but
guys too) have more respect than many whites for learning and for
teachers. I taught some serious ex-cons of color who'd served time for
murder. They knew that they had to **** or walk, and I never had any
trouble from them. And some of the highest-achieving women in America
today, starting with the First Lady, are of course minorities.

The AP students can start tutoring the minorities in math and science
as a way of both deepening their own knowledge, and giving back
something to society, which in Berkeley isn't just "Berkeley": it's
Oakland, too.

I sense in Mrs Seebach a psychology of disassociation from the world
around her. AP science is as much a frill as girl's sports, art, dance
and music, to name three more popular targets for educational
cutbacks.

[ snip ]
Because you can't?

Could be.  In my experience, however, "can't you take a joke?" is
as often as not an attempted defense of supposed humor that's really
a thinly-veiled insult.

Yeah, well I don't accept that women are to be accorded respect
insofar as they enable bullying. Period.
With all due respect, we have only your word for this.  

With all due respect, don't call me a liar.
[ snip ]




Cf. THE CHALLENGER LAUNCH DECISION, Univ of Chicago 1999, Diane
Vaughan. It's a study of the 1986 explosion of the Space Shuttle.
Vaughan had to develop a theory of "normalized deviance" because
quantitative sociologists tend to accept statistically predominant
behavior as non-deviant within a community, but it was obvious that as
a result of Reagan-era demands on NASA to "prove" that "America was
still great", engineers abandoned nondeviant practice from immediately
outside NASA, and normalized bad practice, including being proactively
skeptical of knowledge claims; engineers "knew that they didn't know"
how alloys on O-rings around fuel tanks would perform in unusually
(for Florida) low temperatures, and this absence was used (deviantly
with respect even to former NASA standards applied to Apollo) to
justify a disastrously aggressive launch schedule.

Huh.  I think I was under the impression that the Challenger launch
disaster had been caused by management acting against the advice of
technical employees.  Your description makes it sound as though the
engineers were at fault.

The engineers were, but insofar as they, with the encouragement of
managers, "acted like managers and not engineers". The older
tradition, as documented by Diane Vaughan, was "pushback", in which an
engineer not also a manager could veto a launch at NASA or a software
release at IBM up to about 1980 based on technical criteria alone. By
the 1980s, and especially in software, many workers who bragged of
being "engineers" were quick to assent to bad decisions because of
Reagan-era propaganda to the effect that only "academics" and trouble-
makers would insist on "niceties" and "frills".

In fact, the Columbia disaster of 2003 was caused by the same
situation. Chunks of foam insulation were coming off Columbia in
launches, and striking the wings forcefully. However, inspection
showed little damage. The situation (which was recognized by the post-
crash official investigation as being grave) was transformed into a
"known issue" and was administratively forgotten even though, as the
investigation pointed out, the Columbia was operating outside of its
intended performance; it had not been designed to discard pieces of
itself any more than a driver is supposed to drive around with a
busted taillight or exhaust pipe making sparks on the road.

But in the case of Columbia, the engineers were silenced by the
absence of pushback and the administrators were focused on making the
schedule. The result was the slaughter of the crew including the first
astronaut from India, a woman named Kalpana Chawla.

http://caib.nasa.gov/news/report/volume1/default.html

What troubles me is that would be "software engineers" right here
treat errors as "known issues" in exactly the same way; for example
Seebach as regards %s, broken switch() and off by one. Instead of
fixing their errors they explain that they are being "fast and
dirty" (without explaining why we would be interested in their F & D
code), that it's not "rilly" an error, etc., whilst engaging in
deliberate campaigns of personal and professional destruction over the
putative errors of others.

Enablers here silence meaningful dissents in the case of Navia and
myself by politely dismissing or deliberately failing to understand
their concerns using patronizing language. This also seems to have
occured at NASA, where female managers were selected because of their
"people" (enabling) and codependent skills. It appears that these
enablers set "attack dog" engineers on engineers pointing out the
truth, which was that the insulation shedding was a serious problem as
were the O-rings.

A typical pattern is a pseudo-compenatory overstress on popular issues
*du jour* such as int v. void main() in hopes of diverting attention
away from "the elephant in the living room". This conduct requires
codependent enablers in the same way the family of the alcoholic often
manages a great deal of rigidity about minor rules while Dad is passed
out on the couch.

Here, you're ignoring and codependently enabling the fact that Seebach
doesn't moderate clcm competently, refuses to engage, and conducts
vicious personal campaigns against others based on "competence" while
being himself incompetent in C.

This is what Vaughan calls "normalized deviance". Just as "the
elephant in the living room", the deviant behavior of the alcoholic,
becomes normalized, here, incompetence and the politics of personal
destruction are so normed as to make the normal "trolling".
 
S

spinoza1111

Can you provide a specific reference to one such post?  The link
from Seebs's Web page (athttp://www.seebs.net) to his mother's column
appears to be broken.  Googling, I found this

[URL deleted]
which I think is the right person, but in a quick skim of the first
few entries I don't find anything like what you describe.

[...]

Ok, so Nilges wrote about something that Seebs's mother is
alleged to have posted on her blog.  Fine, we've come to expect that
kind of crap from him.

Excuse me, I posted the link. I did not "allege" the posting. And I'm
sure she knows that her blog is readable by anyone.
Why the *&%^ are you discussing it with him?  In public?  Here in
comp.lang.c?  Even if what Nilges is true, what possible relevance
could it have to the C language, to Schildt, or to anything that
anyone here could possible care about?  Must you reply in public to
every sentence he writes?

Because so many of Seebach's claims have no technical basis, that's
why, and to account for them, and to demonstrate this, the
"constructive" way (in the sense of a "constructivist" argument in
mathematics) is to psychoanalyze him, and to show that even as his Mom
defends AP science against cutbacks, Seebach took the "advanced
placement" philosophy, a middle class retreat from engagement which is
anti-intellectual and anti-professorial, and generalized it.
I believe that the e-mail address under which Nilges posts is valid.
If you really want to discuss Seebs's mother's blog with him, feel
free to do so by e-mail.  Or perhaps you could find another newsgroup
or forum where it's topical.  Create an alt.* group for the purpose if
you like.

Please please *please* stop feeding the troll.

I am not a troll. There are three common senses.

1. The old sense used on LANs was a known person who in bad faith
posts things to "get a rise" out of people.

2. Jaron Lanier (writing in "You Are Not a Gadget", 2010) defines a
"troll" as an anonymous hostile poster such as "Colonel Harlan
Sanders" here who shits on people.

3. Your sense is beneath contempt. It is Nordic racist and it means
"someone I do not like".

I have been responsible for large and on-topic threads with a lot of C
code in them, for example as regards replace(). Your participation in
these threads has been derisory; for example, you approved a one line
strlen by Seebach which was off by one in an obvious way.

I suggest you stop these "troll" posts for they codependently
encourage and enable the Lanier trolls.
 
S

spinoza1111

Actually, I have to dispute this.  I was absolutely shocked that
he actually managed to successfully identify my mom.  (To save him
trouble, the UFO nut "Linda Seebach" is a different person.)

I don't know what you are talking about. You link to your mother's
blog in your blog.
 
S

spinoza1111

...


You have to dig a bit.  For some reason, Ms. Seebs put only a teaser on
her page - you have to go to "bigjournalism.com" and then put "seebach"
in the "Search" box.  Then the article comes up.

No, you just go to Seebie's blog (http://www.seebs.net/log/).

You click "the eclectic Linda". The Jan 29 2010 post "Berkeley Science
Labs" links to Mrs. Seebachs's article at
http://bigjournalism.com/lseebach/2...-between-excellence-and-equity/#idc-container.
I'm not sure it says exactly what Nilges says it does, but it is
abundantly clear which side of the political spectrum the seebs are on -
just from the general tone (read: teabagger) of the site and the text in
her article.

Based on the article, Mrs Seebach isn't a teabagger. But she does feel
that AP science shouldn't be cut back, and Advanced Placement is
primarily used by white and middle class students to avoid survey
classes. I believe that they do so out of a typically "white" desire
not to engage the Other, be it a professor who could give them a new
view or a minority. But I would not make this interpretation in the
absence of confirmation, in the form of Seebach's corporate anti-
intellectualism, his confusion of shibboleth and saw with science, and
his normalized deviance.
 
S

spinoza1111

[snip]
The fact is that C is not portable. Because it is possible to make
things subtly dependent on hardware, any port needs a great deal of
diligence. The fact that this diligence isn't manifest doesn't change
this.
If you want to write portable code, it is folly to int main(). Use
Java or C Sharp.

Just because you don't know how to write portable code in C, bozo, does
not mean that others can't. At SLAC in the mid-late 80s, we had a
threads kernel written in C (that supported events, semaphores, timers
[1], and thread priorities) that it was no great effort to port to DEC's
VAX/VMS and to IBM's VM/CMS. That's substantially different OSes,
different endiannesses [2], and different character sets. It's called
being professional, Spinny. You should try it sometime instead of just
being a mouth.

[1] Some of this work exposed bugs in IBM's timer services that (having
access to the assembler source code) we fixed.

[2] which affected how structs were packed, as I recall, so that
required some care.

[1] and [2] show, in fact, that C code is NOT PORTABLE. You're
bragging about doing your job, but portability means "run anywhere
without change or the need for research to disprove portability".
 
K

Kenny McCormack

I don't know what you are talking about. You link to your mother's
blog in your blog.

It is clear by now that Seebs is, like most Republicans nowadays, just
spewing. Putting out words that sound good (i.e., advance their agenda),
with zero concern for whether they are true, valid, or in any way map to
(easily verifiable) reality.

--
(This discussion group is about C, ...)

Wrong. It is only OCCASIONALLY a discussion group
about C; mostly, like most "discussion" groups, it is
off-topic Rorsharch revelations of the childhood
traumas of the participants...
 
T

Tim Streater

spinoza1111 said:
[snip]
The fact is that C is not portable. Because it is possible to make
things subtly dependent on hardware, any port needs a great deal of
diligence. The fact that this diligence isn't manifest doesn't change
this.
If you want to write portable code, it is folly to int main(). Use
Java or C Sharp.

Just because you don't know how to write portable code in C, bozo, does
not mean that others can't. At SLAC in the mid-late 80s, we had a
threads kernel written in C (that supported events, semaphores, timers
[1], and thread priorities) that it was no great effort to port to DEC's
VAX/VMS and to IBM's VM/CMS. That's substantially different OSes,
different endiannesses [2], and different character sets. It's called
being professional, Spinny. You should try it sometime instead of just
being a mouth.

[1] Some of this work exposed bugs in IBM's timer services that (having
access to the assembler source code) we fixed.

[2] which affected how structs were packed, as I recall, so that
required some care.

[1] and [2] show, in fact, that C code is NOT PORTABLE. You're
bragging about doing your job, but portability means "run anywhere
without change or the need for research to disprove portability".

Are you deliberately stupid? Or are you simply out of arguments today
(like yesterday, and the day before, and the day before *that*, ad
fucking nauseam).

[1] exposed errors in *IBM's* code - which plain didn't work. Once our
IBM systems programmers had *fixed these bugs*, the C code in question
ran fine with no changes required to it.

[2] related to the endianess of the two machines, which is obviously
different.

Once we'd modified the C slightly to account for this, the *same* source
was used on *both* architectures - without even any pre-processor work
required.

You've been ground into the dust in the last few months, dimwit, why not
admit it.
 
T

Tim Streater

It is clear by now that Seebs is, like most Republicans nowadays, just
spewing. Putting out words that sound good (i.e., advance their agenda),
with zero concern for whether they are true, valid, or in any way map to
(easily verifiable) reality.

Ah, the brown-noser's back.
 

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