Is C++ a boondoggle?

[woodbrian77]

As everyone who's done professional programming knows, there
are many programmers who try to find ways to expand the amount
of time it takes to complete a project and the amount of
maintenance that is required for a program or system. They do
this out of self-interest: They want oodles of money. While
this is more conspicuous in the public sector than elsewhere,
it is widely occurring in the private sector as well.

Such programmers don't stay employed for very long.  (I'm not
sure what you mean about "the public sector".  I don't know of
any state run companies which [sic] actually write software.  The
contract it out, and the companies they contract it to are often
better run than most.)

In the United States, "the public sector" refers to government
agencies, and metonymically to those companies who serve
government contracts.

You mean that you'd consider the subcontractors the public
sector as well, even though they're limited companies?  And what
about companies like IBM, who subcontract to the government, but
also produce a lot of software for other private companies, etc.

I think the point is that the public sector is taking over the
private sector. The unfortunate trend is toward greater
dependence on government. Previously health care was largely a
private sector area (in the US). Now it and other areas are
being taken over by the public sector. There's a saying going
around something like this, "If you think health care is
expensive now, wait until it's 'free'." The limited "success"
of socialized medicine in some parts of the world has only
been for a little while. I'm doubtful those success stories are
likely to be continued in the years ahead and expect rather
that those programs will crater sooner than later. A lot of
people know that in the US. I'm not as sure about other places.
Anyway I think the percent of revenue IBM gets from public
sector work is increasing. They are more or less being
enfolded into a world system.

I doubt that there are government employees who write software.
The government certainly has computers, and government employees
use them, but I rather suspect that all software development is
contracted out.

I can't name anyone specifically, but think you go too far.
I believe there are some who do. I would admit they are the
exception to the rule though. Anyway, my above point is that
many who work for what used to be a private sector company are
in the process of becoming public sector employees.

At least in the United States, the government (or some branches
of the government) do impose accountability.  The space shuttle
software is an example of a project that is run considerably
better than most, for example.

Does anyone know what the primary language used by the
space shuttle software is? I'm not going to be impressed
if the answer is C. I won't be surprised either. The
FAA is an avid C user.


Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
www.webEbenezer.net

 

[Chris M. Thomasson]

It's a variation of Ada, right?

Nothing life-critical uses C - not enough type checking, array bounds
checking, stray pointer checking, etc. Some aerospace CPUs do not even
implement a stack!

C aside for a moment and FWIW, C++ is being used in highly critical systems
level software for state-of-the-art fighter bombers:


http://www.research.att.com/~bs/JSF-AV-rules.pdf


I believe they are used C to program critical software for the Mars Lander.

 

[peter koch]

It's a variation of Ada, right?

Nothing life-critical uses C - not enough type checking, array bounds checking,
stray pointer checking, etc. Some aerospace CPUs do not even implement a stack!

This is not true. C/C++ is used in several places in critical systems.
And if it is not the actual system, most operating systems/database
servers and similar basic backbone software is written in C and/or C+
+. Ada is a very nice and solid language, but so can C++ (and even C)
be.

/Peter

 

[Default User]

Does anyone know what the primary language used by the
space shuttle software is?


I'm not going to be impressed
if the answer is C. I won't be surprised either. The
FAA is an avid C user.

What would the FAA have to do with a NASA project?





Brian

 

[woodbrian77]

This is not true. C/C++ is used in several places in critical systems.
And if it is not the actual system, most operating systems/database
servers and similar basic backbone software is written in C and/or C+
+. Ada is a very nice and solid language,

I guess.

but so can C++
Yes.

(and even C)
be.

Really? I think choosing or continuing to use C is
a mistake for most projects.


Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
www.webEbenezer.net

 

[woodbrian77]

What would the FAA have to do with a NASA project?

I know they are distinct. I mentioned the FAA because
it's related and I happened to know a little something
about them.


Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
www.webEbenezer.net

 

[James Kanze]

If you're serious then I may have to rethink my opinion of
government contracts(!) Here in the UK, the public impression
seems very much to be that government computer projects tend
to be unmitigated disasters awarded to the lowest bidders.

It obviously depends on the agency awarding the contract. Never
the less, some US agencies do require SEI rating, and some of
the best run projects I'm aware of have been government
contracts. (NASA's space shuttle software, for example).

In the one field I'm very familiar with: the privatisation of
the various telecoms in Europe has resulted in a definite
lowering of the quality of the software from their
subcontractors.

Perhaps the humongous failures are only the tip of the iceberg
though?

In general---private or public. Don't forget: for the failure
to be humongous, it has to be a humongous project, which means
from a humongous organization. And we don't hear much about
failures in the private humongous organizations---although I'm
aware of some, they're not news.

I can certainly see that safety-critical software systems for
things like the space shuttle, fighter jets, etc., are likely
to be far better engineered than most (I was under the
impression that in such cases the software was often subjected
to formal proof methods?) Am I missing something?

Large organizations (again, private or public) aren't
monolithic. And they provide a lot of possibilities for hiding
waste. Judging from the recent news, General Motors doesn't do
any better than the governments. In general, the smaller the
organisation, the better. (Or maybe that's just because if it
isn't, it quickly disappears.)

 

[James Kanze]

(e-mail address removed) wrote:
As everyone who's done professional programming knows, there
are many programmers who try to find ways to expand the amount
of time it takes to complete a project and the amount of
maintenance that is required for a program or system. They do
this out of self-interest: They want oodles of money. While
this is more conspicuous in the public sector than elsewhere,
it is widely occurring in the private sector as well.
James Kanze wrote:
Such programmers don't stay employed for very long. (I'm not
sure what you mean about "the public sector". I don't know of
any state run companies which [sic] actually write software. The
contract it out, and the companies they contract it to are often
better run than most.)
In the United States, "the public sector" refers to government
agencies, and metonymically to those companies who serve
government contracts.

You mean that you'd consider the subcontractors the public
sector as well, even though they're limited companies? And what
about companies like IBM, who subcontract to the government, but
also produce a lot of software for other private companies, etc.

I think the point is that the public sector is taking over the
private sector.

The current trend is just the opposite; an enormous number of
government services have been replaced by private industry in
recent years.

The unfortunate trend is toward greater dependence on
government. Previously health care was largely a private
sector area (in the US).

That probably explains why health care in the US is so bad,
compared to most of the developed countries in the world.
(Actually, of course, the issues are a lot more complicated, and
large parts of health care are in private hands in most of
western Europe as well.)

[...]

Does anyone know what the primary language used by the
space shuttle software is? I'm not going to be impressed
if the answer is C. I won't be surprised either. The
FAA is an avid C user.

I believe that it's a language developed in house, HAL/S.

In general, independantly of the language, you need a validated
compiler. Which probably means you have to write your own
compiler, since I don't know of anyone selling a compiler at
that level of reliability. Having to write the compiler puts
C++ at a disadvantage; for many different reasons (largely
historical), it's a bitch to compile. And since you're not tied
by things like availability of the compiler, you can design the
language from scratch, eliminating many of the historical warts.

 

[Richard Herring]

In message

This is not true. C/C++ is used in several places in critical systems.
And if it is not the actual system, most operating systems/database
servers and similar basic backbone software is written in C and/or C+
+. Ada is a very nice and solid language, but so can C++ (and even C)
be.

I suspect the main virtue of Ada for safety-critical systems is not so
much the language itself, nice and solid though it be, but the
availability of certified compilers.

 

[Phlip]

Nothing life-critical uses C - not enough type checking, array bounds
I should have said that plenty of life-critical regulations forbid C. It's the
same difference - if you use C on hardware that is itself designed for high
reliability, then the Portable Assembler itself is less important!

I'd suspect that the average skill level of Ada programmers is much
higher than is typical for other languages. Possibly due to the
relative unpopularity of the language and the lack of long list of job
offer in the mainstream press. So cowboy programmers don't tend to be
attracted to it much. That would help a lot in producing good
software.

A longer development lifecycle, with more time to soak the design, might also
help there...

 

[woodbrian77]

(e-mail address removed) wrote:
As everyone who's done professional programming knows, there
are many programmers who try to find ways to expand the amount
of time it takes to complete a project and the amount of
maintenance that is required for a program or system. They do
this out of self-interest: They want oodles of money. While
this is more conspicuous in the public sector than elsewhere,
it is widely occurring in the private sector as well.
James Kanze wrote:
Such programmers don't stay employed for very long.  (I'm not
sure what you mean about "the public sector".  I don't know of
any state run companies which [sic] actually write software.  The
contract it out, and the companies they contract it to are often
better run than most.)
In the United States, "the public sector" refers to government
agencies, and metonymically to those companies who serve
government contracts.
You mean that you'd consider the subcontractors the public
sector as well, even though they're limited companies?  And what
about companies like IBM, who subcontract to the government, but
also produce a lot of software for other private companies, etc.

I think the point is that the public sector is taking over the
private sector.

The current trend is just the opposite; an enormous number of
government services have been replaced by private industry in
recent years.

The unfortunate trend is toward greater dependence on
government.  Previously health care was largely a private
sector area (in the US).

That probably explains why health care in the US is so bad,
compared to most of the developed countries in the world.
(Actually, of course, the issues are a lot more complicated, and
large parts of health care are in private hands in most of
western Europe as well.)

In much of the 20th century, the US was the leader in medical
advances and health care. That prosperity wasn't produced by
a powerful federal government that regulated the "industry."

    [...]

Does anyone know what the primary language used by the
space shuttle software is?  I'm not going to be impressed
if the answer is C.  I won't be surprised either.  The
FAA is an avid C user.

I believe that it's a language developed in house, HAL/S.

OK, I don't know much about that language.


Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
www.webEbenezer.net

 

[Phlip]

In much of the 20th century, the US was the leader in medical

advances and health care. That prosperity wasn't produced by
a powerful federal government that regulated the "industry."

Back when insurance companies were not allowed to deny benefits at whim,
middle-class-and-up people could fund the hospital system and the research. The
regulations, back then, were based on the simple rule "thou shalt not steal".

Today, our cars have better insurance than our health...

 

[James Kanze]

I'd suspect that the average skill level of Ada programmers is
much higher than is typical for other languages. Possibly due
to the relative unpopularity of the language and the lack of
long list of job offer in the mainstream press. So cowboy
programmers don't tend to be attracted to it much. That would
help a lot in producing good software.

I suspect that that's true for a lot of "minority" languages.
For that matter, the average skill level of C++ programmers when
up significantly when Java appeared, because a lot of the worst
moved on to Java---I suspect that the same thing is true of the
average skill level of Java programmers, now that C# has
appeared. There is a more or less large group of incompetent
programmers who automatically follow the "in" language.

 

[James Kanze]

In much of the 20th century, the US was the leader in medical
advances and health care. That prosperity wasn't produced by
a powerful federal government that regulated the "industry."

Most European countries today show longer average lifetimes,
less infant mortality, etc. than the U.S. Usually
significantly. Where health care is concerned, the U.S. is
closer to the third world than it is to western Europe.

There are many reasons for this, but the fact that quality
health care is available regardless of income is certainly a
contributing factor.

 

[James Kanze]

[snip snip]

Does anyone know what the primary language used by the
space shuttle software is? I'm not going to be impressed
if the answer is C. I won't be surprised either. The
FAA is an avid C user.

Euh... NASA employees are public sectors employees. NASA does
have programmers that actually write code ?!? As far as I am
aware, NASA tend to write its own software rather than
contract out by opposition to Social Security departments for
example.

No. The software on the space shuttle was originally developped
by IBM's Federal Systems, which is now part of Lockheed Martin.

 

[Richard Herring]

In message

(e-mail address removed) wrote:
As everyone who's done professional programming knows, there
are many programmers who try to find ways to expand the amount
of time it takes to complete a project and the amount of
maintenance that is required for a program or system. They do
this out of self-interest: They want oodles of money. While
this is more conspicuous in the public sector than elsewhere,
it is widely occurring in the private sector as well.
James Kanze wrote:
Such programmers don't stay employed for very long.  (I'm not
sure what you mean about "the public sector".  I don't know of
any state run companies which [sic] actually write software.  The
contract it out, and the companies they contract it to are often
better run than most.)
In the United States, "the public sector" refers to government
agencies, and metonymically to those companies who serve
government contracts.
You mean that you'd consider the subcontractors the public
sector as well, even though they're limited companies?  And what
about companies like IBM, who subcontract to the government, but
also produce a lot of software for other private companies, etc.
I think the point is that the public sector is taking over the
private sector.

The current trend is just the opposite; an enormous number of
government services have been replaced by private industry in
recent years.

The unfortunate trend is toward greater dependence on
government.  Previously health care was largely a private
sector area (in the US).

That probably explains why health care in the US is so bad,
compared to most of the developed countries in the world.
(Actually, of course, the issues are a lot more complicated, and
large parts of health care are in private hands in most of
western Europe as well.)

In much of the 20th century, the US was the leader in medical
advances and health care. That prosperity wasn't produced by
a powerful federal government that regulated the "industry."

    [...]

Does anyone know what the primary language used by the
space shuttle software is?  I'm not going to be impressed
if the answer is C.  I won't be surprised either.  The
FAA is an avid C user.

I believe that it's a language developed in house, HAL/S.

OK, I don't know much about that language.

From what I've seen, you probably don't want to ;-)

M XYZ_TO_POLAR:
M PROGRAM;
M DECLARE P VECTOR;
E -
M READ(5) P;
E - -
M WRITE() ARCTAN(P / P ), ARCTAN(P / ABVAL(P ), ABVAL(P);;
S 2 1 3 2 AT 1
M CLOSE XYZ_TO_POLAR;

"HAL/S is designed without many of the constructs that are known to be
the cause of many errors. There are no abbreviations for keywords, and
keywords are all reserved so that they cannot also be used as variables.

Some features, such as "GOTO" are provided chiefly to ease mechanical
translations from other languages."

(http://klabs.org/richcontent/software_content/hal_s/programming_in_hal-s
..pdf)

OTOH, for maximum obfuscation, it has macros.

 

[coal]

Most European countries today show longer average lifetimes,
less infant mortality, etc. than the U.S.  Usually
significantly.  

I don't dispute that. I also believe matters will deteriorate
(crater, sooner than later) in those countries rapidly. It's
clear those economies are tanking over the past year.

Where health care is concerned, the U.S. is
closer to the third world than it is to western Europe.

There's room for improvement. I live in Minnesota and a
lot of people from all over the world still travel to
the Mayo Clinic for treatment.

There are many reasons for this, but the fact that quality
health care is available regardless of income is certainly a
contributing factor.

We have a big problem with people illegally entering the
country from Mexico and other countries and then going to
the emergency rooms for health care. California is in bad
shape due to this. They are really going to be twisting
in the wind as they have a lame governor. One small
blessing of the economic collapse here is fewer people are
attempting to enter the country illegally. I'm fine with
increasing the number of people we allow to immigrate legally
from these countries, but I expect to see a fence and
guards shooting those attempting to enter the country
illegally. If we had maintained our borders properly,
the validity of your comments about the health care in the
US being similar to that of "third world" countries would
be significantly diminished.

Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
www.webEbenezer.net

 

[coal]

We have a big problem with people illegally entering the
country from Mexico and other countries and then going to
the emergency rooms for health care.  California is in bad
shape due to this.  They are really going to be twisting
in the wind as they have a lame governor.   One small
blessing of the economic collapse here is fewer people are
attempting to enter the country illegally.  I'm fine with
increasing the number of people we allow to immigrate legally
from these countries, but I expect to see a fence and
guards shooting those attempting to enter the country
illegally.  If we had maintained our borders properly,
the validity of your comments about the health care in the
US being similar to that of "third world" countries would
be significantly diminished.

The deaths of these 4 children are part of the cost that
Minnesotans pay for the policies of Clinton, the Bushes
and Barack Obama (B.O.).

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2104613/posts

http://wcco.com/local/cottonwood.bus.crash.2.938783.html


Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
www.webEbenezer.net

 

[James Kanze]

I don't dispute that. I also believe matters will deteriorate
(crater, sooner than later) in those countries rapidly. It's
clear those economies are tanking over the past year.

You can believe what you want. The fact remains that all of the
statistical indicators show the opposite.

There's room for improvement. I live in Minnesota and a
lot of people from all over the world still travel to
the Mayo Clinic for treatment.

Quality treatment certainly exists, for those rich enough to pay
for it.

We have a big problem with people illegally entering the
country from Mexico and other countries and then going to
the emergency rooms for health care. California is in bad
shape due to this. They are really going to be twisting
in the wind as they have a lame governor. One small
blessing of the economic collapse here is fewer people are
attempting to enter the country illegally. I'm fine with
increasing the number of people we allow to immigrate legally
from these countries, but I expect to see a fence and
guards shooting those attempting to enter the country
illegally. If we had maintained our borders properly,
the validity of your comments about the health care in the
US being similar to that of "third world" countries would
be significantly diminished.

What is it they say: all of the problems of the United States
can be attributed to a too liberal immigration policy---on the
part of the American Indian.

Just curious, but why shouldn't a person have a right to live
where ever he wants? That would seem to be a basic freedom to
me.

 

[Richard Herring]

In message

The deaths of these 4 children are part of the cost that
Minnesotans pay for the policies of Clinton, the Bushes
and Barack Obama (B.O.).

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2104613/posts

http://wcco.com/local/cottonwood.bus.crash.2.938783.html

http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/how-to-post.html#faq-5.9