java software naming question

L

Lew

Patricia said:
Also, I distinctly remember being taught in school not to use "they" for
gender-neutral singular.

Native speakers of a language learn its real rules as infants. For
example, consider the subject-verb-object order of a typical English
declarative sentence. I didn't need to be taught it in school. I did
have to learn that Latin has a different default order.

Rules native speakers only learn in school are very fragile. If schools
stopped teaching people not to use "they" for gender-neutral singular it
would become the norm in at most a generation.

It already is the norm in spoken English, and has been ensconced in classic
literature for dozens of generations. Wikipedia quotes a source that it has been in
use since the 1300s.

Examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they#Generic_they
 
G

Gene Wirchenko

Also, I distinctly remember being taught in school not to use "they" for
gender-neutral singular.
Likewise.

Native speakers of a language learn its real rules as infants. For
example, consider the subject-verb-object order of a typical English
declarative sentence. I didn't need to be taught it in school. I did
have to learn that Latin has a different default order.

And they get broken, too. "Neither a borrower nor a lender be,
...." is not your typical imperative sentence.
Rules native speakers only learn in school are very fragile. If schools
stopped teaching people not to use "they" for gender-neutral singular it
would become the norm in at most a generation.

It pretty much is already.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirhenko
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

"hen" being a female bird, we need a different word.

hen is somewhat the average of han og hun.

So the questions is what the average of he and she is? khe??

:) :) :)

Arne
 
M

Mark

Also, I distinctly remember being taught in school not to use "they" for
gender-neutral singular.

Native speakers of a language learn its real rules as infants. For
example, consider the subject-verb-object order of a typical English
declarative sentence. I didn't need to be taught it in school. I did
have to learn that Latin has a different default order.

Rules native speakers only learn in school are very fragile. If schools
stopped teaching people not to use "they" for gender-neutral singular it
would become the norm in at most a generation.

Even though English is my first language I was only taught grammar
when first learning a foreign language. For English we were just
expected to 'know'.
 
R

Roedy Green

Given the pride many
Chinese have in having a hard-to-learn language, I doubt that Mandarin
Chinese will become a working lingua franca in the future.

English is pretty hard to pronounce and is quite irregular. That did
not stop it becoming the defacto world language. That happened not
because of any features of the language, but because of the success of
the British Empire.

Mandarin might succeed for the same reason.

I did some digging on computerised typesetting in Chinese just as
electronic typesetting in English was getting off the ground. I went
to visit a Chinese newspaper where women were keying into a DOS app.
The speed was blinding. It required memorising numbers for words.
There were dozens of schemes for keying, all requiring much more skill
than we have with QWERTY. It would be interesting to learn how it
shook down. Today, even my own website can appear in Chinese by
clicking a Google Translate button at the top of the page. We may
avoid the need for an interlanguage.
 
R

Roedy Green

Also, I distinctly remember being taught in school not to use "they" for
gender-neutral singular.

Same here. We were taught to use "he" for singular unspecified gender.
I think "they" has the best chance. Many people use it "incorrectly"
already. It is already familiar. It already has almost the correct
meaning. I started using it myself about a year ago. New words seem
too much of an affectation. Misusing a word sneaks by.

Have you ever wondered why computer languages do not have pronouns,
unless you consider parameters a flavour of pronoun?

I invented pro-verbs in my Abundance language, roughly a callback.
 
R

Roedy Green

Do you deny this assertion?

That particular sentence does not have a problem, but if you scanned
my entire website you would find some split infinitives that I did
deliberately because the alternative was ambiguous or awkward.

My assertion is that splitting the infinitive is not ambiguous. I am
not asserting that not splitting the infinitive is always ambiguous,
just sometimes.

Avoiding split infinitives seems to me a silly rule. I can't see any
advantage in it.
 
R

Roedy Green

It's "up with which I will not put", actually. This kind of phrasing is
actually incorrect grammar (so people who would force you into that kind
of situation are hypercorrective),

I found it quoted many ways when I was preparing that post, but no
official source. Where did you get your version?
 
G

Gene Wirchenko

On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 09:50:11 -0800, Roedy Green

[snip]
Have you ever wondered why computer languages do not have pronouns,
unless you consider parameters a flavour of pronoun?

No. "this" is a pronoun.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
 
R

Roedy Green

No. "this" is a pronoun.
Forgot about that. There is a pronoun for this object but not for this
class.


In a way, import makes all Java variables into pronouns, in the sense
of abbreviations for full nouns.
 
R

Roedy Green

That happened not
because of any features of the language, but because of the success of
the British Empire.

Once it became the interlanguage, it start evolving very rapidly as
new technical terms were added. It has a huge vocabulary compared
with many other languages. That helps keep it as the interlanguage.

It also likes to be specific. Not leaving much up to interpretation
is great for science and business but not so great for Zen poetry.

One of the most fascinating books I ever read was Steven Pinker's The
Language Instinct: how the mind creates language, about how languages
evolve.
http://mindprod.com/book/9780060958336.html

One of the things I think about every once in a while is what would be
the characteristics of a ideal interlanguage. I explored Esperanto. It
has had lots of time to catch on, but has not. I explore why in my
essay on it. http://mindprod.com/esperanto/esperanto.html

I am also interested in how you might use teams of computer
programmers who do not all speak English. I envisage some SCIDs that
greatly tighten up the ability of programmers to track what others are
doing and to decouple how the program is displayed from how it is
stored.
 
L

Lew

Roedy said:
Lew wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

That particular sentence does not have a problem, but if you scanned

That particular sentence was the one you yourself selected to illustrate the problem.
my entire website you would find some split infinitives that I did
deliberately because the alternative was ambiguous or awkward.

My assertion is that splitting the infinitive is not ambiguous. I am

I do not disagree.
not asserting that not splitting the infinitive is always ambiguous,
just sometimes.

Avoiding split infinitives seems to me a silly rule. I can't see any
True.

advantage in it.

The original advantage was that the rule made English more like Latin.
 
J

Joshua Cranmer

Surely requiring you to specify gender in situations where it is
irrelevant shows some sort of unhealthy preoccupation with gender.

Surely requiring you to specify the subject of a sentence where it is
easily inferred from context shows some sort of unhealthy preoccupation
with subjects.

Or maybe it's just a very useful piece of information that adds
redundancy in the language to improve comprehension in lossy media, like
a marketplace.
 
J

Joshua Cranmer

I found it quoted many ways when I was preparing that post, but no
official source. Where did you get your version?

The original quote appears to be apocryphal, but that's the form that
it's in a Wikipedia article about the subject, and I also distinctly
recall seeing that exact phrasing in another article dealing with
grammar fallacies (I think it was an Economist article?). Given that
said phrasing is the only one I can work out that actually makes
grammatical sense, I have a little more faith in it than the one you posted.
 
J

Joshua Cranmer

English is pretty hard to pronounce and is quite irregular. That did
not stop it becoming the defacto world language. That happened not
because of any features of the language, but because of the success of
the British Empire.

I think if you look at the timeline of the dominant language of
diplomacy, French was replaced sometime in the 20th century, well after
the British Empire had reached its apex. The rise of English as the
primary world language is almost certainly due to the center of most
scientific and technological research shifting to the United States;
that Russian did not also become a major language in this era is
probably due in part to the Sino-Soviet split and in part repercussions
of how the communist systems worked.
Mandarin might succeed for the same reason.

It probably won't for several reasons, largely a death by a thousand
papercuts:
1. Exclude Mandarin from the Sino-Tibetan language family, and you'll
find only around 100m speakers of those languages; exclude English from
the Indo-European, and you'll find perhaps 2b speakers of those
languages. An Indo-European lingua franca is more accessible to more
people than a Sino-Tibetan one.

2. Nearly all keyboards in the world are set up to be able to easily
input the Latin alphabet and script. A relatively small portion,
especially outside China, are set up to be able to input Chinese characters.

3. Similar to the above, the US-ASCII subset of characters is the only
set of characters that reliably works everywhere in practice on modern
technologies. Non-ASCII characters still have conversion problems,
although everyone is slowly starting to move towards UTF-8, UTF-16, or
UTF-32.

4. The last 20 years has codified English--and particularly American
English in terms of spellings--as the primary language of computers,
which gives it an immense network effect in the low level; something
that other languages (particularly Chinese) would find hard to break into.

5. Mere economic heft doesn't make a country's language global. Note
that German never became a major global language, despite Germany being
a major world power in the early 20th century; also note the distinct
lack of Russian as a major global language, despite the USSR being a
second superpower for about 50 years.
I did some digging on computerised typesetting in Chinese just as
electronic typesetting in English was getting off the ground. I went
to visit a Chinese newspaper where women were keying into a DOS app.
The speed was blinding. It required memorising numbers for words.

I'm not a student of Chinese, but I recall that the characters are
basically build up of unique sets of radicals, which offers, for
example, a uniform way to look stuff up in dictionaries. I think most
IMEs actually have you enter what amounts to the pinyin (Romanization of
the text) and it will select an appropriate character.
There were dozens of schemes for keying, all requiring much more skill
than we have with QWERTY. It would be interesting to learn how it
shook down. Today, even my own website can appear in Chinese by
clicking a Google Translate button at the top of the page. We may
avoid the need for an interlanguage.

French is the only foreign language I know to any degree of accuracy,
and I can assert that the state-of-the-art for machine translation of
English<->French is only good enough to get you the gist of a text and
would be inadequate for, e.g., anything you'd want to use as an official
translation.

I have played with a toy called "Translation Party", which repeatedly
translates between English and Japanese until an idempotent translation
is achieved. The result quickly degrades in gibberish. As an example,
one of the sentences in this post found equilibrium as the following:

Most global language Russia 2 ), provides a lack of Soviet agitation
and 50-year-old superpower relationship.

I have noted as other examples the text doing things such as dropping
the word "not" (substantively altering the meaning of the sentence).
While Chinese is not Japanese, they both share the difficult
characteristic of being so far removed from English that the grammar and
word order look almost nothing alike at times, so I would assume both
would have about the same levels of accuracy in terms of sensical
translation (which is to say, very poor quality).
 
J

Joshua Cranmer

Once it became the interlanguage, it start evolving very rapidly as
new technical terms were added. It has a huge vocabulary compared
with many other languages. That helps keep it as the interlanguage.

English's rich vocabulary has more to due with its invasions in the
Middle Ages than changes since the 19th century, although the lack of a
central authority that tries to control the language probably helps
absorption of new terminology more readily. Technical terms tend to be
exchanged between languages largely as direct transliterations, so they
don't really count for a rich vocabulary.
It also likes to be specific. Not leaving much up to interpretation
is great for science and business but not so great for Zen poetry.

Yet Lobjan never caught on for some reason.
One of the things I think about every once in a while is what would be
the characteristics of a ideal interlanguage. I explored Esperanto. It
has had lots of time to catch on, but has not. I explore why in my
essay on it. http://mindprod.com/esperanto/esperanto.html

Looking at your essay on it, there are several inaccuracies:
1. Chinese characters are not mutually intelligible between Japanese,
Korean, and Chinese, or even the various dialects of Chinese (Cantonese
and Mandarin in particular). A better relationship is like the Greek and
Latin alphabets: the Latin alphabet directly descended from the Greek
one, and you can sometimes change the two sets and not notice, but there
are definitely cases where you can't. This is why the CJK Han
unification in Unicode was very controversial.

2. Discussing "words" in the context of multiple languages is
inaccurate, so comparing wpm of Chinese IME versus English isn't useful,
especially when you claim later that you could type Chinese characters
via their English equivalents for an IME.

3. The point about radicals letting you sometime infer meaning is like
the claim that sign language is intuitive because it's visual: it works
rather less well than most supporters claim when you go and measure it
(confirmation bias).

4. English is also moderately agglutinative. Consider the word
"antidisestablishmentarianism" and how many roots are in that word. Or
more useful words in modern discourse like nanotechnology.

5. Your point about "unifying Asian languages" flies rather greatly in
the face of what I know about East Asian history and smacks more of
Chinese propaganda than truth (see my point about number 1).

6. You imply a ranking of languages by total fluent speakers but give a
listing of what appears to be languages by native, first-language speakers.

7. It is probably not a matter of time until the US is predominantly
Spanish speaking. The most recent demographic trends, for example, show
greater increase in Asian-descent populations than Hispanic.

I'm too tired to give a full explanation of why I think Esperanto
failed, but the salient points I believe are the following:

1. It's a constructed language, so every fault that it has is less
excusable than native languages. These faults include, but are not
limited to, grammatical gender, agreement, phonological complexity,
orthographic strictures, inflection-versus-agglutination, and choice of
roots for word.

2. Internal warfare about degree of reform of the language (cf., Ido
reforms).

3. The general decline of Western Europe in the early 20th century,
relative to the United States and the USSR changed the position of
languages in Europe from being a family of roughly balanced powers (UK,
France, Germany) whose citizenry were apt to be polylingual to one of
two poles dominated by very powerful monolingual large countries (the US
and the USSR). Polylingual creoles just didn't have as much utility at
that point.
I am also interested in how you might use teams of computer
programmers who do not all speak English. I envisage some SCIDs that
greatly tighten up the ability of programmers to track what others are
doing and to decouple how the program is displayed from how it is
stored.

As someone who tries not to be monolingual, I still see programming as
being basically monolingually English, for the simple reason that there
needs to be a common language to specify, design, and implement APIs in.
That language is English for historical reasons. And before you suggest
machine translation, I will point out that APIs are places where
precision in language is necessary, and machine translation has yet to
be able to translate text (especially the kind of noisy text that you'd
find in programs and their API documentation) to anywhere near that kind
of precision and is unlikely to do so in the next quarter-century.
 
R

Roedy Green

In practice, I've met many programmers who could discuss any programming
issue in English, without being fluent in English in general.

Back in the 60s I studied organic chemistry. Our lab instructor was
German and told us that most of the interesting work in organic
chemistry was published in German. We would simply have to learn
enough German to make sense of it. To my surprise, it was not that
difficult. I gather the same is true for English and computer
programming.
 
R

Roedy Green

3. Similar to the above, the US-ASCII subset of characters is the only
set of characters that reliably works everywhere in practice on modern
technologies. Non-ASCII characters still have conversion problems,
although everyone is slowly starting to move towards UTF-8, UTF-16, or
UTF-32.

But keying is still hit and miss. We don't have keyboards for keying
UTF-8. As a Canadian there are a fair number of French words in
common use that need accents, particularly &eacute; I handle this by
using HTML and entities and macros to generate common accented words.
It is hard to proofread though. I do a little UTF-8 editing, but
mostly ISO-8859-1 simply because my old familiar editor has macros and
editing keys below awareness.

We are moving toward programmable keyboards, where you can with a few
keystrokes convert the layout. Sooner or later keys we will have
variable legends to help you navigate Icelandic or whatever you need
sporadically. You can buy keyboards with LEDs in the keys, but I can't
see they have any function other than looking kewel.

Browsers have nailed the encoding/fonts problem. I routinely see
Japanese, Chinese, Arabic, Hebrew and Thai in browsing without any
special effort on my part.
 

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