jQuery vs. My Library

[Faisal Vali]

4. Take criticism better and scale back your ego. Related to the above.
For instance getting featured on Ajaxian was a huge opportunity to reach
a large and targeted audience. If your goal is to actually see the
library used, you getting virtually blacklisted from them was an
enormous blunder.

While few would dispute that David Mark's discourse should be more
civil, Ajaxian blacklisting his work because of the nature of his
discourse rather than the quality of his work raises far more
disturbing issues about Ajaxian's integrity (to us consumers) than it
could possibly raise about David Mark's attitude. The brunt of the
criticism should be directed towards Ajaxian here. I for one was
looking forward to that article.


Faisal Vali
Radiation Oncology
Loyola

 

[ace]

In fact, that's why my test page is actually better. It's the older,
slower, QSA-less browsers (and other agents) that will expose efficiency
problems. The new ones using QSA will all act about the same. As mine
is competitive even without QSA, it would seem to be the winner.

In other words, the time has run over you.
Feel free to take a shovel and bury yourself somewhere in a backyard.

 

[Scott Sauyet]

By "falls down a bit" do you mean unsuited to the task?

Possibly. It depends of course on the task. But it takes almost 4
seconds to run 40 queries on a 114KB HTML page. Three of the
libraries only take around 1 second for the same task. So whether
it's good enough for your task is up to you, but you should notice
that the other libraries are significantly faster here.

"self-aggrandizing"? Why do you care about any perceived personality
flaw in someone you most likely will never meet/know? Can't you just
objectively comment on the quality of the work?

I don't give a damn about his personality. But both the style and the
content of his posts get to be noxious. In the few months I've been
reading he makes fairly outrageous claims for his own skill and
regularly castigate the other libraries, claiming that anything the
other libraries get right, they steal from him.

When I go to test the claims he has made, and post my results, I'm met
with insults.

I didn't get the feeling that he didn't expect anyone to notice. Quite
the contrary, that everything was openly laid out before us.

But when challenged on the speed advantages he announced, he didn't
post a link to the speed test, nor did he post his results. He merely
makes these very strong, but non-specific claims.

At any rate, haven't the other libraries been around for a "long" time?
So shouldn't even a two year old version be an accurate representation
of the quality of the coding involved?

But it's not the quality of the coding that's under challenge here.
There should definitely be investigations here into that quality, but
what I was presenting was hard numbers that challenged his assertions
about the speed of his library compared to the competitors. Anyone
using such numbers as a factor in deciding which library to use would
expect the comparison to be among reasonably recent, if not the
latest, versions.

Perhaps you *are* testing the wrong thing. Sorry if I missed it but I
didn't notice your defence of your claim.

I'm not sure at this point "testing the wrong thing" has any
significant meaning. I posted the results of my tests of his library
in recent versions of the major browsers on a developer's Window's
machine. In what way could that be the wrong thing to test?
Additional tests on older machines, or other browsers are equally
legitimate. But people looking to use one library or another should
know how they perform in the environments in which they expect the
libraries to run. Perhaps in some locked-down corporate environment,
only IE 6-8 matters. If their application is to run only on iPhones,
presumably testing on those devices is what the user will care about.
For instance, I certainly don't give a damn personally about how any
of the libraries perform in FF1. Maybe David has a good use case for
that. But to try to claim that my tests are useless because they were
performed on a relatively modern machine is ridiculous and self-
serving.

To repeat, the people that I know that use the "common" js libraries are
unhappy with all of them.

I think it's great that David is bringing another library into the
fray. Certainly the survivors of the last rounds of the competition
have a great number of flaws, and the competition should help improve
all of them. But if he starts by making over-exaggerated claims about
his library, he is doing everyone (himself included!) a great
disservice.

-- Scott

 

[Scott Sauyet]

While few would dispute that David Mark's discourse should be more
civil, Ajaxian blacklisting his work because of the nature of his
discourse rather than the quality of his work raises far more
disturbing issues about Ajaxian's integrity (to us consumers) than it
could possibly raise about David Mark's attitude.  The brunt of the
criticism should be directed towards Ajaxian here.  I for one was
looking forward to that article.

You're right. It would be nice to see some serious analysis of My
Library, especially outside this small community. And I do think that
Ajaxian was rather small-minded. But it is not that surprising a
reaction. How do you think O'Reilly would react to someone whose
content was being considered as the subject of a new book were to
publicly proclaim, "I think the entire O'Reilly catalog is a crock of
shit!"?

-- Scott

 

[RobG]

I'm not sure at this point "testing the wrong thing" has any
significant meaning.

Testing is pointless if you don't have any criteria to establish what
the testing means. Speed is usually the last criterion to be
considered, more important ones are:

1. What specific types of sites or application is it best at
developing?
2. Does it provide sufficient functionality to make development easier
or faster?
3. Will it help maintenance?
4. Is the library itself maintained and what is the strategy for
backward compatibility?
5. How tolerant is the library of browsers with missing or incorrectly
implemented features?
6. What existing browsers does the library work in without error?
7. Is the download size acceptable?
8. How good is the documentation?

Each of the above topics likely has several subtopics that look at
architecture and implementation.

I posted the results of my tests of his library
in recent versions of the major browsers on a developer's Window's
machine. In what way could that be the wrong thing to test?

The users of such libraries are visitors to web sites. Testing
performance on a developers machine on a LAN (or with client and
server on the same box) is completely the wrong environment.

Additional tests on older machines, or other browsers are equally
legitimate.

You mean essential.

But people looking to use one library or another should
know how they perform in the environments in which they expect the
libraries to run.

Precisely, which is why results from a developer's machine mean very
little.

[...]

For instance, I certainly don't give a damn personally about how any
of the libraries perform in FF1. Maybe David has a good use case for
that.

He has a *reason* and he mentioned it.

But to try to claim that my tests are useless because they were
performed on a relatively modern machine is ridiculous and self-
serving.

The slickspeed tests are designed for one purpose only: to test the
speed of CSS selectors. If the "major libraries" fork into browser-
native QSA branches and don't use their CSS selector engines, then
what is being tested? The tests themselves don't even use a suitable
document, they use a document essentially picked at random.

If the tests were to have any real meaning, the test document should
be specifically designed to test several scenarios for each selector,
such as a group of elements close together, some widely separated in a
shallow DOM and others in a deep and complex DOM. It may be that a
particular library comes up trumps in one type of DOM but not in
another. There should also be edge cases of extremely complex
selectors that may never occur in reality, but test the abiltiy of the
engine to correctly interpret the selector and get the right elements.
Speed may be a very low priority in such cases.

A good starting point might be the ACID 2 or 3 test page.

I think it's great that David is bringing another library into the
fray. Certainly the survivors of the last rounds of the competition
have a great number of flaws, and the competition should help improve
all of them. But if he starts by making over-exaggerated claims about
his library, he is doing everyone (himself included!) a great
disservice.

No one's perfect. But subjective criteria like "is the architect a
nice guy" don't rate too highly in my selection criteria. I've worked
with a number of self-opinionated arseholes who were, never-the-less,
very good at their job. I much preferred working with them to the Mr.
Nice Guys who were barely competent but great to talk to over a
beer.

 

[Faisal Vali]

You're right.  It would be nice to see some serious analysis of My
Library, especially outside this small community.  And I do think that
Ajaxian was rather small-minded.  But it is not that surprising a
reaction.  
Agreed.

How do you think O'Reilly would react to someone whose
content was being considered as the subject of a new book were to
publicly proclaim, "I think the entire O'Reilly catalog is a crock of
shit!"?

Well I would want to respond similarly too (although I hope I
wouldn't - but that would not speak favorably to my professional
integrity (since I would clearly be prioritizing my self-interest over
the interest of those I serve). I would like to think that I would
try and engage the criticizer (lubricant in hand to learn more
about the reason for their dissatisfaction - but that is far easier
said than done.

Eitherway, Ajaxian can obviously do whatever they want; but, as
consumers of Ajaxian's articles, we should be furious about them
putting their own ego over our interests. I understand why we're not
enraged, but I'm not sure that either their or our pettiness really
serves our larger interests.

Has anyone contacted Ajaxian about this?

Faisal Vali
Radiation Oncology
Loyola

 

[Scott Sauyet]

Testing is pointless if you don't have any criteria to establish what
the testing means. Speed is usually the last criterion to be
considered, more important ones are:

Right, which makes it strange for David to claim that I was testing
the wrong things. How in the world could he *know* what tests are
meaningful for me?

The users of such libraries are visitors to web sites. Testing
performance on a developers machine on a LAN (or with client and
server on the same box) is completely the wrong environment.

Actually, I'm not doing much front-end development right now. But
there's a good chance I'll be doing so soon, for the corporate
intranet at my job. The project will have 50 - 100 users, most on IE8
or FF3.5, but some probably on Chrome. I will try to ensure that it
will work in Opera and Safari as well. I will probably be able to
assume that the users will have Windows XP or Windows 7, and my
machine is the type the company is using to replace old ones. I can't
assume they will be as powerful as mine, but I also don't need to
worry about 500MHz, single-core processors.

You mean essential.

Yes, but there are limits to what's worth testing for any particular
user. I'm certainly not expecting this to even look reasonable in
IE3.

Precisely, which is why results from a developer's machine mean very
little.

Unless...

For me ancient processors and FF1 means very little.

[ ... ]
The slickspeed tests are designed for one purpose only: to test the
speed of CSS selectors. If the "major libraries" fork into browser-
native QSA branches and don't use their CSS selector engines, then
what is being tested? The tests themselves don't even use a suitable
document, they use a document essentially picked at random.

If the tests were to have any real meaning, the test document should
be specifically designed to test several scenarios for each selector,
such as a group of elements close together, some widely separated in a
shallow DOM and others in a deep and complex DOM. It may be that a
particular library comes up trumps in one type of DOM but not in
another. There should also be edge cases of extremely complex
selectors that may never occur in reality, but test the abiltiy of the
engine to correctly interpret the selector and get the right elements.
Speed may be a very low priority in such cases.

There's a lot to be said for that. But there's also a lot to be said
for a process that weighs the speeds of the selectors depending upon
the likely common usage of each. A test that weighs these equally has
some clear-cut issues:

span.highlight
#myDiv ul div.group ul li:nth-child(7n + 3)

No one's perfect. But subjective criteria like "is the architect a
nice guy" don't rate too highly in my selection criteria. I've worked
with a number of self-opinionated arseholes who were, never-the-less,
very good at their job. I much preferred working with them to the Mr.
Nice Guys who were barely competent but great to talk to over a
beer.  

Oh, I'd always prefer to work with someone competent but less
likable. However, I would hesitate to commit to using his library in
any production environment until there are people helping support it
that seem willing to admit to their faults and honestly interested in
helping users through their problems. If it's a one-man show, then I
want that one man to be someone whose responses to requests for help,
to suggestions, and to critiques are helpful rather than abusive.

-- Scott

 

[Garrett Smith]

Possibly. It depends of course on the task. But it takes almost 4
seconds to run 40 queries on a 114KB HTML page. Three of the
libraries only take around 1 second for the same task. So whether
it's good enough for your task is up to you, but you should notice
that the other libraries are significantly faster here.



I don't give a damn about his personality. But both the style and the
content of his posts get to be noxious. In the few months I've been
reading he makes fairly outrageous claims for his own skill and
regularly castigate the other libraries, claiming that anything the
other libraries get right, they steal from him.

When I go to test the claims he has made, and post my results, I'm met
with insults.




But when challenged on the speed advantages he announced, he didn't
post a link to the speed test, nor did he post his results. He merely
makes these very strong, but non-specific claims.



But it's not the quality of the coding that's under challenge here.
There should definitely be investigations here into that quality, but

Defining "code quality" is a topic that is likely to result in flames.

I did create one unofficial document here:-
http://jibbering.com/faq/notes/review/code-guidelines.html

There was much heated debate regarding the "don't modify objects you
don't own." That document may need to be taken down, actually.

The motivation for the document was bad code reviews. I wanted to
facilitate better code reviews.

Code quality matters. Bugs should be fixed before being pushed to
production, or even given to QA.

Code design and architecture matters, too. Javascript is extremely
flexible and powerful language. It is easy to create tangled messes in
javascript.

I think it's great that David is bringing another library into the
fray.

David is not alone, he is just the most obstreperous. That's probably
too kind a term to use.

I too am building a library/framework. Features: IoC to create
factories, AOP event system, dom abstraction layer, and some widgets. IT
is all organized into modules. Ther is no query selector because the
cost of using that just isn't worth it at this point. Native QSA might
be a good option in 5 years when support is more widespread, but not for
the time being.

There is a ton of work that needs to be done on it. It is not easy find
good javascript developers who have time to donate on this stuff, so I'm
doing it all myself. Slowly.

If you would like to donate your time provide criticism or feedback to
the the code, I would certainly appreciate that very much. I won't call
you a buffoon for doing that, but I reserve my right challenge the
criticism if I feel it is wrong.

 

[Scott Sauyet]

David is not alone, he is just the most obstreperous. That's probably
too kind a term to use.

But it's much more polite than most that come to my mind!

I too am building a library/framework. Features: IoC to create
factories, AOP event system, dom abstraction layer, and some widgets. IT
is all organized into modules. Ther is no query selector because the
cost of using that just isn't worth it at this point. Native QSA might
be a good option in 5 years when support is more widespread, but not for
the time being.

Yes, I did know about that. No slight intended. I do intend to check
it out. But I also have not seen you present any outrageous claims
for it.

There is a ton of work that needs to be done on it. It is not easy find
good javascript developers who have time to donate on this stuff, so I'm
doing it all myself. Slowly.

If you would like to donate your time provide criticism or feedback to
the the code, I would certainly appreciate that very much. I won't call
you a buffoon for doing that, but I reserve my right challenge the
criticism if I feel it is wrong.

I would like to do so. My time for the next few days is pretty
limited, but I will take a look at it later in the week. And feel
free to call me a buffoon if I act like one!

-- Scott

 

[Matt Kruse]

No one's perfect. But subjective criteria like "is the architect a
nice guy" don't rate too highly in my selection criteria.

I think it is important (although perhaps not MOST important) because
it gives a good idea of what kind of adoption the library will have,
whether it will become widely used, what the support/user community
will be like, how the library will respond to criticism, whether it
will take suggestions, etc. And that stuff matters. So I think it's
important to weigh that in with other criteria.

And this is, I think, critical for this library because currently it
has virtually no acceptance, few examples, poor documentation, a bad
web site, no support community, and a bad name. Having an architect
who behaves like a child is just another reason why the library will
be ignored, IMO.

Personally, I don't see "My Library" gaining any acceptance or having
much impact on the scripting library space. But I suspect that
something may rise out of it (perhaps by someone other than DM,
perhaps several people here) and be something influential. That's my
prediction. Regardless of personalities, I think it is important for
anyone who is interested in js and scripting libraries to be informed
about this discussion and to be watching where this goes.

Matt Kruse

 

[Scott Sauyet]

Did you also check the personalities of Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Linus
Torvald before deciding on an OS?

I rather doubt he did. But I'll bet he knew something about the
support offered by Microsoft, Apple, and the Linux community.

it gives a good idea of what kind of adoption the library will have,
whether it will become widely used, what the support/user community
will be like, how the library will respond to criticism, whether it
will take suggestions, etc. And that stuff matters. So I think it's
important to weigh that in with other criteria. [ ... ]
Personally, I don't see "My Library" gaining any acceptance or having
much impact on the scripting library space. But I suspect that
something may rise out of it (perhaps by someone other than DM,
perhaps several people here) and be something influential. That's my
prediction. Regardless of personalities, I think it is important for
anyone who is interested in js and scripting libraries to be informed
about this discussion and to be watching where this goes.

I've asked for people to post a defence of the *factual* criticisms that
David Mark has made of various js libraries. So far the postings have
been along the lines of:
- I don't like him
- He's not a nice person
and now
- His library won't get used

Excuse me, but you seem to have stepped into the wrong discussion
here. I haven't seen anyone trying to defend any other library here,
only discussing My Library and David Mark's promotion of it.

And even the critique of his abrasiveness has been tempered, as Matt
did here, as one consideration among many.

-- Scott

 

[Matt Kruse]

Did you also check the personalities of Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Linus
Torvald before deciding on an OS?

That's a bad analogy. If I had an interest in analyzing and predicting
the success of different OS options back at the time those were being
created, then looking at the personality of the people in charge would
certainly have been important. In retrospect, their personalities have
been a very important factor in the overall success.

Often in history, the success of one product or technology over
another has had little to do with the technical and factual qualities
of each, but rather the marketing and branding and people behind them.
There are countless examples.

If a person is going to invest heavily into one technology in terms of
time, money, training, development, support, etc then it's important
to figure out if the technology is going to be widely accepted for
years to come, or obsolete in 6 months. If you were convinced of the
technical superiority of HD-DVD over Blu-Ray, and invested heavily
into that technology because of the technical issues alone, you would
have found yourself in a lot of trouble as the market went the other
way. It is often a better choice to go with the market leader rather
than a technically superior solution that has no support.

I've asked for people to post a defence of the *factual* criticisms that
David Mark has made of various js libraries.

Those discussions have been going for years. Most of the time, his
factual criticisms are valid. Sometimes not. Sometimes they are valid
but miss the bigger picture. Opinions differ. But that isn't the point
of this thread or my post.

So far the postings have
been along the lines of:
- I don't like him
- He's not a nice person
and now
- His library won't get used

David is throwing himself out there in a very rude and abrasive
manner, as usual. That's fine. That's who he wants to be. He is
offering up his library as the best library ever and trashing everyone
else. So he is opening himself up to criticism and opinions, and I
think that's what this thread is about.

In discussing whether his library will gain acceptance or make any
real challenge to the "major" libraries, I think his personality and
how he "markets" his product are indeed very important. That's
independent of the quality of the code, but it's still a discussion
that many people here might be interested in. If nothing else, it's
way more interesting than discussing yet again how stupid he thinks
John Resig is.

Matt Kruse

 

[S.T.]

Eitherway, Ajaxian can obviously do whatever they want; but, as
consumers of Ajaxian's articles, we should be furious about them
putting their own ego over our interests. I understand why we're not
enraged, but I'm not sure that either their or our pettiness really
serves our larger interests.

It seems to me Ajaxian was going to him a favor by doing a write-up,
borderline prematurely, based largely on his criticisms of other
libraries he apparently sends them that perhaps they agreed with to a
degree. Then he made an ass of himself and they yanked the offer.

What is so compelling to-date that Ajaxian should feel compelled to
feature it at this time? It's a gigantic script with no demos, no
documentation (I don't count "appendToHTML() - appends to HTML" as
docs), virtually no community, it's not being used anywhere to even
substitute as a demo and it's entire publicity so far is purely the
result of the author being a troll/net kook.

So far the entirety of 'My Library' is a huge script, a contrived slick
speed test and an author running around making bold claims. I don't
think one can fault Ajaxian for taking a pass. If it pans out to
something actually relevant (that's a big 'if') and Ajaxian ignores
it... then it might be fair to criticize their editorial policies.

 

[David Mark]

It seems to me Ajaxian was going to him a favor by doing a write-up,
borderline prematurely, based largely on his criticisms of other
libraries he apparently sends them that perhaps they agreed with to a
degree.

Are you just making this up? I never sent them anything.

Then he made an ass of himself and they yanked the offer.

They never made any "offer". They are just a blog that some people
mistake for a news site. In any event, journalists don't offer, they
report.

What is so compelling to-date that Ajaxian should feel compelled to
feature it at this time?

Are you kidding? It's definitely a game-changer (in every way
conceivable).

It's a gigantic script with no demos, no

A gigantic script?! It's modular to a fault, with an online builder.
What library are you looking at? You want demos? Try the test page.
I think some people actually miss that.

documentation (I don't count "appendToHTML() - appends to HTML" as
docs)

What the hell is appendToHTML? And what does the typical jQuery doc
describe for attr and other low-level functions? About a sentence
(and often inaccurate).

, virtually no community, it's not being used anywhere to even
substitute as a demo and it's entire publicity so far is purely the
result of the author being a troll/net kook.

A troll? What sort of idiotic reasoning led you to that conclusion?
And anyone using jQuery or the like is the kook.

So far the entirety of 'My Library' is a huge script,

That's twice you have called it a "huge script". What are you trying
to say? Where jQuery is monolithic and interdependant, My Library is
modular and interchangeable. So you have no dig with "huge script".

a contrived slick
speed test

Contrived? How so?

and an author running around making bold claims.

Running around? I've been right here for years. And the "claims" are
backed up in spades. Look at the results of the compatibility testing
(see the forum) or either of the two speed tests:-

http://www.cinsoft.net/mylib-testspeed.html

....and _I_ support it, stupid. What do you think about that?

I don't
think one can fault Ajaxian for taking a pass.

Taking a pass? Get real.

If it pans out to
something actually relevant (that's a big 'if') and Ajaxian ignores
it... then it might be fair to criticize their editorial policies.

What an imbecile. So I suppose jQuery is "relevant" somehow? Qooxdoo
1.0, the maturation of a framework? That's important? LOL. Diaries
of mad browser sniffers are of no interest to the average business.
Trust me.

 

[David Mark]

Scott Sauyet ha scritto:










Scott,
thanks for the time you invested in this review.
Review?

We all know the way DM tries to promote himself and his work and how he
is used to argue with the unfortunates who try to exchange opinions with
him.

What does that mean? Seriously.

So, no need to waste your time discussing with a person that in fact
probably has never had a genuine exchange of opinions in his life,
conceiving discussions as an exercice of one-way communication and total
distortion of what others say.

No, more like you are rambling on about nothing.

I knew the man is somewhat obfuscated by his attitude and his
presumption, but this stupid thing to compare old versions of the major
libraries is so ridicolous I was really laughing while reading.

Then how bad are your reading skills? Go back and re-read it or get
somebody to read it to you.

The entire thing is so pathetic and ridicolous that should never have
been even discussed in a serious technical forum.

What is pathetic and ridiculous? The two-year-old speed test page
with the two-year-old libraries? It's now been updated with newer
versions. But, as discussed, those tests are nowhere near as
illuminating (despite the fact that My Library beats them handily
too).

Strange enough, nobody
here ever noticed such biased tests were in place, even if Mr. Mark
often bragged about the speed of his library et. al.

Are you insane? That selector test page has sat in the same spot,
unchanged for two years and I never even mentioned it. When I talk
about speed, I am talking about things other than queries.

Sometimes I have the feeling that a lot of people here are very tolerant
to Mr. Mark.

What does that mean?

I come back to my habit to lurk this NG; I suppose many other do the
same. I oly wanted to make it clear, I appreciate this thread...

Too bad you got nothing out of it.

He'll never become rich with poker, I think

No, he won't.

 

[David Mark]

I think it is important (although perhaps not MOST important) because
it gives a good idea of what kind of adoption the library will have,

Don't be your usual (idiotic) self. Adoption? As in downloading?
What sort of laughable point are you trying to make here? How many
people who use your scripts actually know you?

whether it will become widely used,

You are blithering again.

what the support/user community
will be like, how the library will respond to criticism, whether it
will take suggestions, etc.

Uh, just visit the forum.

And that stuff matters. So I think it's
important to weigh that in with other criteria.

Weigh away.

And this is, I think, critical for this library because currently it
has virtually no acceptance, few examples, poor documentation, a bad
web site, no support community, and a bad name.

It has plenty of acceptance for something that was first promoted a
month ago. How many users did jQuery have the first month?

There are _tons_ of examples. Perhaps not as organized as you or I
would like, but there they are. Start with the test page, which has a
really nifty console that makes it easy to see what is going on with
the examples. There's nothing else like it.

Fair to poor documentation at this point. As if the others are any
different. Quality counts more than quantity. The others' docs are
frequently wrong.

A bad Website? Why because it has no graphics? Don't be stupid. The
builder/test page is an absolute revelation for those who bother to
try it out. I recently found that it worked on NN4.7 BTW. But then
it all works in the latest IE8 modes as well. The rest of them just
"work" in one wave of browsers (usually the latest). What does that
tell you?

Having an architect
who behaves like a child is just another reason why the library will
be ignored, IMO.

I don't act like a child. You just can't take criticism at all. You
made the mistake of advocating jQuery for years and now you look like
an ass because of it (always did to me). That's hardly my fault.

Personally, I don't see "My Library" gaining any acceptance or having
much impact on the scripting library space.

Personally, your predictions have never been worth much. Lets see,
faster, smaller, more efficient, runs on anything, future-proof, free,
supported by _me_. You think people will still put a penny on John
Resig (or YUI or Dojo) when I am done? Hint: I'm just getting started
on the promotion and you can imagine what is coming.

But I suspect that
something may rise out of it (perhaps by someone other than DM,
perhaps several people here) and be something influential.

Whatever that means.

That's my
prediction. Regardless of personalities, I think it is important for
anyone who is interested in js and scripting libraries to be informed
about this discussion and to be watching where this goes.

Obviously. That's what makes it so laughable that Ajaxian is getting
scooped by the likes of Matt Kruse and S.T.

 

[Faisal Vali]

I think you misunderstand. Being able to see the worth in what someone
is saying does not mean that a judgement has been made on the worth of
the person themselves.

Though postings (such as yours) whose purpose appear to cause injury, do
tend to say something about the poster.

As does the above statement, and therefore I guess this one too.
Perhaps we all need to reign our sanctimony in a little

 

[Faisal Vali]

I ask that posters not attack personalities because that reflects badly
on the posters themselves but you find that so offensive that you need
to call me a hypocrite?

No. I applaud your sentiment that we should avoid ad hominem
"arguments". I was simply commenting on the veiled personal attack
within the remark that "postings (such as yours) ... do tend to say
something about the poster". Now, if you meant that as a positive
remark about the poster, I apologize.

 

[Garrett Smith]

You are 100% correct. There is nothing more relevant that the Ajaxian
could discuss.

What is more relevant than a fundamental criticism of all the major JS
libraries and the counter-claim of a superior design?

So you want to know what would be more relevant than criticism, plus a
counter claim of superiority?

How about a drama-free discussion of what defines good and bad design?

There are many factors to consider in javascript library design. These
factors include, but are not limited to: The program, time constraints,
budget. Library design decisions can also be influenced by hype.

 

[Peter Michaux]

And yes, there's a growing community of people who are tired of using
lousy browser scripts and putting up with authors who can't fix
anything.

Such a community is really "growing"? I just see more and more jQuery
everywhere I look.

They are helping to test in ancient browsers because it helps
to illuminate problems that could show up in other lesser browsers (e.g.
mobile devices). It's not so that people can use NN4.7 (though they
certainly can if they want).

I wish more people understood this point. I've found bugs thanks to
testing in "weird" browsers.

And, of course, the whole [My Library] is modular to a fault

What is the fault?

Peter