Microsoft abandons the C language

[Anse]

Of course, but saying that I don't currently have the resources to
diagnose and fix a particular bug is an entirely different thing than
saying I find that bug "acceptable".

I'm also well aware that a bug that causes a crash twice a year is
difficult to reproduce, which makes it difficult to diagnose and even
more difficult to prove that the proposed fix actually worked. Such
bugs often languish for years because nobody has figured out how to
reproduce them--but that still doesn't mean we find them "acceptable".

This thread has degenerated into the kind of sweeping generalizations that
you C/C++ers consistently do. There really is no way other to categorize it
than: C/C++er masturbation.

 

[Anse]

On 31-Aug-12 13:56, Keith Thompson wrote: [...]

In practice [a] twice-yearly crash is going to be one of a number of
reported bugs, and you have to pick and choose which bugs you're
going to spend time on.

Of course, but saying that I don't currently have the resources to
diagnose and fix a particular bug is an entirely different thing than
saying I find that bug "acceptable".

I'm also well aware that a bug that causes a crash twice a year is
difficult to reproduce, which makes it difficult to diagnose and even
more difficult to prove that the proposed fix actually worked. Such
bugs often languish for years because nobody has figured out how to
reproduce them--but that still doesn't mean we find them
"acceptable".

I understand what you're saying, but it depends on just what you
mean by the word "acceptable". One could argue that if you leave
the bug unfixed and continue to use the buggy system, then you've
"accepted" it.

But that's just a quibble about the meaning of a mostly irrelevant
word.

Are you "leading" this circle-jerk, "coach"? Hmm? Keith Sandustoff?

 

[Anse]

Games.

If MS dropped support for games, forcing all of those customers to
switch to Linux or Mac, that would be seriously detrimental to the
sales of Windows. In fact, one can look at the Xbox as an attempt to
keep Windows relevant to games developers: they can target two
platforms for only slightly more than the cost of one. After all,
there must be a reason they're willing to pour billions of dollars
into that money pit every year, right? They're not idiots.

Pretty much everything else is either company- or industry-specific,
which would not threaten Windows as a whole; competes with Office or
something included with Windows, which again does not really threaten
Windows as a whole; or is open source.


I've got some non-MS commercial software on my machine, either
internal apps my company wrote or stuff we bought to support specific
business functions. Most of the proprietary "applications" I use
today are web-based, and that's the real threat MS faces because it
makes the desktop OS completely irrelevant. Indeed, many of my
coworkers use Linux or Mac, something that was infeasible just ten
years ago.

Oooo, yes. Very good answer, very key I think, I don't KNOW this area and
its pervasiveness, but I believe you. I would have NEVER considered that
(for I can't fathom how so many adolescents (males between the ages of teen
to 60?) waste so much time on such useless shit). It's a sad state of
affairs. (And I used to like to play arcade games (Space Invaders era, got
disinterested when the animated "games" appeared: boring!) in HS and a few
years beyond!).

 

[Anse]

For people from a Unix background, 'apps' and other programs all
share the same OS interface and descend from start, launchd, sh,
login, etc which conform to the same shell exec conventions. Programs
generally don't care or know how they were execked. That means
developers can use the same shell and software tools for any program,
then release it into the wild without alteration.

(MacOSX unfortunately distinguishes loginwindow descended from
launchd descended and blocks the GPU and some other MacOSX
functionality from daemons. That's one advantage of Linux.)

Unix is for nerds. Nerds are not engineers. End of story. (I know, you're
(someone is going to) come back and say, "well linux is embedded in blah,
blah... Guess what? "Enginerd" is in no way related to "Engineer" (Else
Torvalds would have actually proved by now that he "had a clue"). What's the
point, you ask? That adolescent males (a lot of males in USA will live their
whole lives as adolescents) who play video games are wankers. Their primary
endeavor is to WANK more.

 

[Anse]

Look, I develop in a Mac

A wet dream of tight spaces?

 

[Anse]

That almost changed in Windows 8. MS wanted to make OpenGL a wrapper
around the DirectX API, which would have meant that OpenGL couldn't
provide any feature not available via DirectX, nor be any faster. In
the end, that didn't happen because of pushback from nVidia and AMD,
who are too big to be steamrollered, even by MS.

Ah yes, forces. In a limited view, there is DirectX and OpenGL. In a
"slightly" expanded view, there is everything else. In a "slighty more"
expanded view, there is a homeless man who can't make sense of such "unholy"
acts perpetrated by those who have "risen to the top" (of the money
machine), but wouldn't "code for food", nonetheless.

DirectX: Microsoft: "money is power, power is money, surely evil".
OpenGL: "Open Source". "Freedom (tm)".

Oh, and the homeless guy? Rust never sleeps, it just fades away.

 

[Anse]

Am 28.08.2012 06:46, schrieb Ansel:


Interesting, if this isn't a declaration of war, I don't know what
would be. Good to know in what spirit you are. Makes discussions
effectively quite useless.

I was trying to help the flailing duck and you call me a hunter? Aren't you
the one who shot him to begin with? Oh wait, don't tell me, I've just run
into Ted Nugent? Guitar "hero" still trying to make good on adolescnt
wanking Ted?

That said, doesn't that Mittens Romeny underling look like a bat? And
halloween is coming up!!

 

[Anse]

"Wrote down on paper", "decided upon", "agreed on"

No, you use words that are just to advance "your case", and it works in the
USA judicial system, but this isn't that <>. No, this is just USENET, and
you must answer to me. The "law" of "your country" does not apply here.
This is the internet. There is no law except the law of humanity. (That is
why I punctured all four tires of your monster truck last Saturday..
remember how "cool" you were to shove yourself in-between me and the girl I
was having a good time with at the bar? Yep, I did it. I'll be back there
next weekend, FYI.)

(Interjections/or seemingly non-cotexual quips, should not be taken
personally.)

You are not answering the question.

I don't need to answer any questions. YOU need to substantiate or retract
your claims. If you're gonna play stupid with me, I'll give yourself back to
you in spades.

Do you think that Microsoft agreed to the C99 and other standards,

Don't bring "other standards" into this in attempt to gain ground: it
weakens your case considerably. I know a little bit about business, and
therefore "agreements". You are perhaps taking a "played golf with the
Microsoft rep, and we arrived at a "gentleman's agreeement"" stance? Hello?
Little idiot man, show me the legal agreement Microsoft signed. You don't
have any case otherwise (I think).

Is your fratboy bubble being bursted by "brutal" reality? A you a wanker?

or
do you think the standards were formed without Microsoft's agreement?

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think you have any beef justification or legal
case. You thought your "best friend" was your friend, but ran away with
"your one and only"? What's next? Stallman's "freedom" campaign? Drink your
koolaid and shut up.

There is no doubt that MS were heavily involved in the committees and
standards formation.

I was "heavily involved" (that probably shouldn't be in quotes) with a few
VERY nice "strippers". They raked me over the coals! Those damn strippers!!
See my point? ISO C committe was fantasizing just like you are and aren't
you ISO C committee? You weren't a boy in the strip club--you can't even get
in if you're not a bigshot. You hate Microsoft, I don't hate the strippers
(and they don't hate me either, for we had fun, and OK, I owe them more if
they can prove they were REALLY virgins!).

(Aside: Has Brandie been around?? Tell her I say hi and please give her my
number: 936-328-8684.)

First off, yes - there /is/ a problem.

No, I think "first off" you said "blame".

MS has deliberately chosen not
to implement C99 or later standards of C.

Welcome to the real world? 99.9% of information a human receives is bullshit
and you are promagulating it or are still feeding on it? (Could be rephrased
as, "Do you eat shit?").

I say "deliberately"
because they have publicly stated that they will not support the
standards.

No, you said "deliberately" because they bitched you instead of you bitching
them.

It is not a matter of time or money

Oh, but it is that. If you want more than that, well it's gonna cost you
more money. (Well, that's what "a stripper" told me once, anyway).

(which I could
understand)

I would say that "I don't see you understanding much", but it is evident
that you understand YOUR goals, in exclusion of others'.

, since the effort involved would be tiny in comparison to
the effort they make in developing MSVC.

"effort"? Since when did that count? 20 years driving a school bus, and
replaced for admonishing your unruly kids while driving and replaced by a
new driver with the entry wage of $10/hr. "effort"? 20 years of you sperms
on a bus? I would call that horror. Meet the homeless.

And it /is/ a problem, because it hinders the use of cross-platform C
programming in the desktop PC world.

"It is a problem that Catholicism is not throughout the land, so I declare
"the crusades", and all witches will be gathered and burned."

Yes, it is a problem. The definition of "it"?

This is a problem for developers

Ha! Lofty terminology thrown? You wouldn't know a "developer" from a
"programmer", even if he was in a lineup in accusation of raping your
mother.

who might choose to use C for cross-platform programming, and it is a
problem for users and consumers who could have benefited from these
programs.

Sounds like the Republican presentation (I saw little of it, but the newsman
seem to confirm the lack of substance). Wankers. Wankers wanna be
"president". I'm not calling "republicans" wankers. I'm calling wankers
wankers. (I am not "a democrat", for the record).

It is /not/ a problem for MS, because it is in their interests to
hinder cross-platform programming.

Ya think? Think about it. You just WANT to think that? OK, I give Jim Gates
and his merry wankers too much credit. Are you calling for class-action
lawsuit? What would be worse, MS having all the money, or USA continuing and
expanding their war industry?

See grasshopper, it's not just "I wank my dick untill it cums, and all is
good".

(To be fair here, MS is not
nearly as bad as Apple in this area.)

Or any other company given blessing and rights as a human by your
government's laws? Isn't the nirvana of wanker irresponsibility
incorporation, and isn't the biggest wanker on the planet right now Mark
Zuckerfuck? Have you tried calling him and offering to suck his dick?

So I believe it is a problem,

So, you have no case.

and MS is solely to blame.

Is that an accusation? If so, make it. "MS is solely to blame for..."

But you seem
to think that it is not a problem

You know, when I see a problem, I try to fix it. Just "my nature". To
perhaps contrary opinion, (especially in this NG where everyone's life
teeters on some esoteric notion of ones and zeroes on infintesimally small
transistors has any relevance at all), I am not a total idiot. But when you
call me one directly, but trying to hone down a bullshit position based on
one word (that word being 'it'), I have a hard time regarding you as
relevant. (And I said it harshly).

(I can see that viewpoint, though I
don't agree with it),

I don't care that you WANT.

and that it is the C committee that is to blame
for the situation.

YOU said 'blame'. You wanna make me a lawyer, push my buttons some more.

MS does not support C99 in their tools,

"Cry me a river".

despite their users asking for
it (google a little if you want to see examples).

Nope. I'm not the judge. Are you suggesting I gather facts? Instead of your
mouthal spew? What if I charge you back for the work I do? No, I'm not going
to do that. You make unsubtantiated statements. What are you waiting for?
That "I" find you in an alley and make you prove it, so you can sue me? What
if I ignore your tantrum and adolescent wanking?

This is substantive

Hello. No, wanker, the world does not await your dick. And I can prove it:
put it up on UTube. Oh, it's already on there? Nevermind, just call me when
Obama calls you to be his "right hand" man.

information - and yes, it is enough to rest the case.

A lawyer AND a judge now? My, how has the world gotten by without you?

I could go on

Wank, wank.

about motives (and I have done, at least a little),

They call that "heresay", yes? That I know your wife has a fat ass is true,
yes? Oh, damn, you caught me... yes, I'm the one sending her letters.. but
SHE "found" me online! It's all true, so shut up. Or is it all just, a lie?
(BTW, tell your wife the dialog was fun, but I really never had any
intention of dating her).

but that is more
speculative and circumstantial.

There always is with you guys.

(I won't take anything you say personally, and hope you won't either.)


Your first interpretation is closest - "agreed" means they said "that
document looks just fine" and signed on the bottom of the ISO
standard.

Link to written document, else dismissed (and if dismissed, will count
against you).

Agreeing on the standard does not require a commitment to implement
it.

Next. Is this guy really the defender of C or ISO?

It just means

No, nothing "just" means in legality. It is or it isn't, else new laws are
considered.

What you don't seem to "get" is that the world of money and power are not
fratboy pledges.

you agree with the rest of the committee that the
standard will form the definition of "C99",

Precedent model is witch hunts? Ha! As if one needs to go back that far!
What you don't WANT to understand is that your "system" is just that:
outside of humanity. Your "system" seeks to CONTROL or CONSTRAIN or <all the
ugly historical things that have happened>. So no, you take your "system",
and shove it up your ass.

and that anyone with tools
or code conforming to that standard can work together.

Or else you will burn me at the stake for being a witch?

But you really do have to

Sometimes, just some very rare times, I really don't have to do anything,
but get you out of my fucking face, and the next time you get in-between me
and some girl at the bar, I might "really have to" do something. Ya think?

question the motives of a company

As if a company had motives? A company is an inanimate thing. Posing as a
human, it is a crime against humanity. How could it be anything else? You
wanna fight that one, I'll let drive your kids to the war (yeah, I'm a
school bus driver).

that forms
and agrees to a standard, then fails to implement it in their tools.

You spew and you spew, but it doesn't bother me at all. It bothers me that
anyone would actually "buy your spew", so I spit in your eye.

To my knowledge,

Your "knowledge" is vacuous. Read: what you may think, is irrelevant. That
you think you can own or have knowledge, shows that you are a wanker.

they "agreed" to the standard.

Oh, quotes now? Case closed? Are you done now, wanker?

You can interpret

You are wishing I am a jury? Pfft! ("USA judicial system as a crime against
humanity" is totally a separate thread and in the philosophy NG for sure).

that to mean they agreed to use the standard as a requirements
document

Of course not, and let that be made clear (you wanker persective).

- if they ever make a C99 compiler, it will have to follow
the standard.

After your spiel, why would anyone even want to touch an ISO standard? Seems
like really icky stuff. A stink horn?

But I don't think they ever promised to actually
implement the standard.

Did I just teach you more than any gradeschool or HS teacher? Where is my
$30K?

People (including the rest of the committee)
may have /expected/ them to implement it, but MS is not obliged to do
so.

Don't cry to me, you are your parents' fault. I'm just here to tell you
that.

 

[Anse]

Nonsense.

Said a fanboy? Are you mocking me boy?

The standards

You meant THE STANDARDS, yes? Did I type that wrong? THE standards? The
Standards? How many sheeple can each of those garner? Fast! You know that,
it's in the library of congress, obfuscated in a zillion letters. Hmm? No
one can call you "bad", because it is law "written"! Pfft. I don't VOTE to
give you MINIMUM wage as part of "the system", one can only hope that you
will be "fired", by someone who cares. (Someone once said, "take your
fucking system, take your fucking goverment, take your fucking flat, take
your fucking politics, and shove them up your ass. -unknown).

are set by those who participate in the
standardisation process,

(tm). I'm not saying "get some balls", I'm saying, dissolve, because you
have no substance.

and that includes the vendors.

"or and also"? The ISO committed is to codify existing practice, but "that
includes vendors", "too"? The law of reason not only refutes your
accustation, but finds you unlawful. Wouldn't that fucking suck for you?

In fact, I
suspect that the new C standard was set mainly by people who
represented these vendors.

And I have to be bothered by this in my old age now why?

Bullshit.

Don't use my terms: I have called "bullshit" on you from your very first
post. Your only "salvation" seems to be to admit being a wanker. Then, Keith
must step down from his position as "standing on the cloud of wankers".
(And, no, Keith, you don't get "3 strikes till you are out", he IS
representing YOU. He will go free, and YOU will do the time.)

Microsoft was heavily involved in the creation of the new
standard for C and C++.

No it wasn't.

With C, apparently it has sent a participant
to at least all the WG14 meetings where a minute was recorded.

Just being there and being "a participant" are not the same thing. (Don't
make me reference the obvious).

http://www.open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG14/www/meetings

Shut up Rui.

 

[Anse]

I avoid C99 features largely because Microsoft doesn't support them.

I think that is a lie Nick.

 

[Anse]

Le 26/08/12 13:02, Ansel a écrit :


Ahhh those Unix programmers. Bunch of morons isn't it?

"We all" know what that means.

Just go on trolling dude.

Good luck with your presentation, "dude".

 

[Anse]

Am 28.08.2012 07:47, schrieb Ansel:

you seem to have run out of arguments here

You are replacing Stephen but *I* have run out of "arguments to justify his
spew"?

I have already seen quite a number of "interesting" people in NG, but
I rarely have seen somebody as rude as you.

Oh, you're that guy that got in-between me and that girl at the bar?
Wouldn't that make you a fucking punk? Answer the fucking question, punk.

 

[Anse]

Now we are moving into your field of expertise.

Who is "we"?

 

[Jens Gustedt]

Am 02.09.2012 07:26, schrieb Anse:

I

ah, so you got yourself a new alias, suspected that you would come up
with something like this. Good to know that these tow are the same.

was trying to help the flailing duck and you call me a hunter?

ah, so your statement was ironic? Is that it? You were joking?

Aren't you the one who shot him to begin with? Oh wait, don't tell
me, I've just run into Ted Nugent? Guitar "hero" still trying to
make good on adolescnt wanking Ted?

sorry, I am not able to follow you here. English is neither my native
tongue nor culture. I suspect there are several levels of irony in
your interjection, but I simply don't have the cultural reference to
follow you. And to be able to catch up to your level is far beyond my
possibilities, joking in a foreign language is extremely difficult.

That said, doesn't that Mittens Romeny underling look like a bat? And
halloween is coming up!!

same here

Jens

 

[Jens Gustedt]

Am 02.09.2012 09:45, schrieb Anse:

Oh, you're that guy that got in-between me and that girl at the bar?

so you got drunk? That explains it.

Jens

 

[Anse]

Am 02.09.2012 07:26, schrieb Anse:

ah, so you got yourself a new alias, suspected that you would come up
with something like this. Good to know that these tow are the same.

You still grasp at me even after I said I am not "your leader"? It sucks for
me when it is quiet. It only sucks more when it is not.

ah, so your statement was ironic? Is that it? You were joking?


sorry, I am not able to follow you here. English is neither my native
tongue nor culture. I suspect there are several levels of irony in
your interjection, but I simply don't have the cultural reference to
follow you. And to be able to catch up to your level is far beyond my
possibilities, joking in a foreign language is extremely difficult.

Nuff said: Unicode is <don't make ME say it, cuz you know I will>.

That said, shut up.

same here

You're a bat too? Whoa!!! I CAN solve that problem!!! "goverment jobs" are
minimum wage. Anyone getting money to market their idiocy, are automatically
enlisted in the marines, and WILL get front-line duty, and it behooves them
to learn it.

 

[Anse]

Am 02.09.2012 09:45, schrieb Anse:

so you got drunk? That explains it.

Prove it. Punk. Prove what that explains, punk. I'm not calling you out,
punk. Not a fucking all, punk. You got a second wind chance at me? I have
nothing better to do than to beat your fucking ass into a pulp. And the next
time you do that, <>.

 

[Jens Gustedt]

Am 02.09.2012 10:44, schrieb Anse:

You still grasp at me even after I said I am not "your leader"?

ah, you said that? you said anything? not easy to grasp in all that
sermon

It sucks for me when it is quiet. It only sucks more when it is not.

What is that "it" that sucks you? Must be an interesting concept. I
see from the dictionary that "to suck" may have a certain sexual
connotation. But I don't see the relationship with C. There may be
offers on the Internet that correspond better to your needs, no? So
why don't you just try to find a place that suits better to you needs?

Jens

 

[Nick Keighley]

Am 02.09.2012 07:26, schrieb Anse:


ah, so you got yourself a new alias, suspected that you would come up
with something like this. Good to know that these tow are the same.


ah, so your statement was ironic? Is that it? You were joking?


sorry, I am not able to follow you here. English is neither my native
tongue nor culture.

I suspect sanity isn't his native tongue

<snip>

 

[Nick Keighley]

Nick Keighley wrote:

I think that is a lie Nick.

why?