[OT] Programmers (UK)...?

[Chris Davies]

Looking for advice, please. In a couple of months I *might* be in the
market for a couple of permanent Perl programmers based out of Leeds,
UK. The job agencies I've used previously are all telling me that Perl
is a "legacy" language, and that they'd be surprised if they were able
to find anyone (!) with strong recent perl experience. (One person even
told me that "everyone" had migrated to .NET. Very strange.)

Can anyone recommend places (websites) or agencies I should be contacting,
where Perl experience is an advantage rather than a deadweight?

Since this is pretty much OT, I'd suggest it might be appropriate to email
me directly (the Reply-To is valid). As used to be the case "way back",
I can summarise anything useful in a few days.

Many thanks,
Chris

 

[Tad J McClellan]

Can anyone recommend places (websites) or agencies I should be contacting,
where Perl experience is an advantage rather than a deadweight?

http://jobs.perl.org

 

[Uri Guttman]

TJM> http://jobs.perl.org

also the london perl monger's manage their own jobs list so you would
get more a more focused group. and i know several UK hackers who might
be available. but maybe hiring in 2 months is not useful immediately.

as for placement agencies, i am the only one in the world that is 100%
dedicated to perl recruitment. you can reach me at uri AT
perlhunter.com. perl is not close to dead nor is its job market. you
have been talking to useless agents who do buzzword matching.

uri

 

[Cliff MacGillivray]

TJM> http://jobs.perl.org

also the london perl monger's manage their own jobs list so you would
get more a more focused group. and i know several UK hackers who might
be available. but maybe hiring in 2 months is not useful immediately.

as for placement agencies, i am the only one in the world that is 100%
dedicated to SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM you
have been talking to useless agents who do buzzword matching.

abuse complaint sent

 

[Tim Greer]

Looking for advice, please. In a couple of months I *might* be in the
market for a couple of permanent Perl programmers based out of Leeds,
UK. The job agencies I've used previously are all telling me that Perl
is a "legacy" language, and that they'd be surprised if they were able
to find anyone (!) with strong recent perl experience. (One person
even told me that "everyone" had migrated to .NET. Very strange.)

This is why you can't use a job agency. People that are too clueless
and more interested in using the newest buzz/hype words and
requirements. I hope they didn't charge for their non-service.

Can anyone recommend places (websites) or agencies I should be
contacting, where Perl experience is an advantage rather than a
deadweight?

See http://jobs.perl.org.

 

[cartercc]

Looking for advice, please. In a couple of months I *might* be in the
market for a couple of permanent Perl programmers based out of Leeds,
UK. The job agencies I've used previously are all telling me that Perl
is a "legacy" language, and that they'd be surprised if they were able
to find anyone (!) with strong recent perl experience. (One person even
told me that "everyone" had migrated to .NET. Very strange.)

This depends on the universe one lives in. In my city (Southeastern
U.S.) there are two large employers of programmers, on an insurance
company and the other a bank holding company/credit card processor. I
know a number of people who work for these companies. Both have a .NET
group and a Java group, with supporting HR people, and seemingly a
hermetic wall between them. Once, I was told that the Java group at
one of these companies was understaffed and looking to beef up. I
spoke to the head HR guy, someone I knew personally in other contexts,
who SWORE that X company didn't do Java and had NOT ONE SINGLE Java
programmer on the payroll.

Perl is a specialized tool used for specialized jobs. I've had some
recent experience programming in .NET, and while it's true that you
can do bunches of things in .NET that you can't do in Perl, it's also
true that you can do bunches of things in Perl that you can't do
in .NET. But of course you already know that.

My advice:
1. Advertise for programmers, Perl or otherwise.
2. Don't fall into the need-to-know trap. A competent programmer who
doesn't know Perl will do you a lot more good in the long run that an
incompetent programmer that does know Perl.
3. Realize that the Perl world has different parts, and that domain
knowledge is just as important as language knowledge if not more so. A
Perl data munger won't help you with Perl sys admin -- hire a sys
admin even if his knowledge of Perl is rudimentary.
4. You should be looking for a competent programmer with domain
knowledge, rather than someone who knows Perl. Ideally you would find
a competent programmer who possesses both domain knowledge and Perl.

CC

PS - I can't help but repeat this. Perl is only a tool, yes, but it's
undoubtedly the very best tool for some jobs. If anyone tells you that
Perl is dead or is a legacy language, what they are REALLY telling you
is that some jobs don't need doing or don't need doing well, and that
someone is ignorant. You can tell this to him in person and say that I
said so.

CC

 

[Uri Guttman]

CM> abuse complaint sent

sent to whom and about what? it wasn't spam. i was just telling him that
there are agents who do understand perl and the perl job market. i just
happen to be the only one. bfd. if i posted stuff here all the time
about it, it would be spam. i also redirected him to a free resource
dedicated to perl jobs in his country. was that spam too?

uri

 

[Dr.Ruud]

I've had some
recent experience programming in .NET, and while it's true that you
can do bunches of things in .NET that you can't do in Perl, it's also
true that you can do bunches of things in Perl that you can't do
in .NET. But of course you already know that.

Can you give examples? In my view there aren't any.

 

[Tad J McClellan]

abuse complaint sent

What abuse is that you have observed?

 

[cartercc]

Can you give examples? In my view there aren't any.

When I say .NET, I'm referring to the whole shootin' match, Visual
Studio and all. I've taught Perl and VB on a post-secondary level, and
I have observed that a group of students (not university level or
computer scientists, but ordinary young people) can do quite a bit
more after a quarter of VB than after a quarter of Perl. Also,
building Windows apps is a lot easier with all the Microsoft libraries
that attempted to do it with Perl. In fact, if I were building a
Windows app, I wouldn't even consider using Perl -- Visual Studio
makes it pretty easy.

..NET is not a language, or a set of libraries, but a framework. Perl
is a language. You really can't compare the two on an equal basis. For
one thing, with .NET, you can use VB, C++/CLI (a significant MS
extension to C++), C#, J#, maybe F#, and maybe even Perl. With Perl,
you can only use Perl. That would be one thing you could do with .NET
but not with Perl.

CC

 

[Tim Greer]

I've taught Perl and VB on a post-secondary level, and
I have observed that a group of students (not university level or
computer scientists, but ordinary young people) can do quite a bit
more after a quarter of VB than after a quarter of Perl.

No offense, but how are you qualified to judge this, let alone to teach
it, when you're here on this group the last couple of months asking
very basic questions and still posting with questions that result from
you still not using what you've been taught here? I'm not trying to be
mean, and maybe you can code fine in VB or other languages, but what
you've demonstrated about your lack of Perl knowledge doesn't really
fairly and accurately portray what amount people could know and use,
had they been taught by someone more qualified. I'm not attacking you,
but I find your claims of Perl comparisons without merit, based on
these reasons.

 

[Vicky Conlan]

also the london perl monger's manage their own jobs list so you would
get more a more focused group. and i know several UK hackers who might
be available. but maybe hiring in 2 months is not useful immediately.

I was going to suggest LPM, but he did say Leeds not London. In my
experience the problem he's going to have is that if you want Perl
programmers, most of them are very firmly based in London.
--

 

[Dr.Ruud]

Ruud:

cartercc:

Can you give examples? In my view there aren't any.

[...]
.NET is not a language, or a set of libraries, but a framework.

That is one of the things that I found strange about your statement.

"while it's true that you can do bunches of things with a milk carton
that you can't do with a fluid, it's also true that you can do bunches
of things with a fluid that you can't do with a milk carton". D'oh!

And of course there is even a PerlNET. (maybe no longer maintained though)

Perl
is a language. You really can't compare the two on an equal basis. For
one thing, with .NET, you can use VB, C++/CLI (a significant MS
extension to C++), C#, J#, maybe F#, and maybe even Perl. With Perl,
you can only use Perl. That would be one thing you could do with .NET
but not with Perl.

Perl supports embedded languages, for example the regex engine, so Perl
is such a platform too. And when you mention Perl, you probably also
mean CPAN.

When I read your "can't" in your statement as "maybe shouldn't try", it
makes a bit more sense, as being clearly just somebody's opinion of the
moment. You were throwing with terms like "recent experience" and "it's
true", which more often than not mean "hoax".

Ah, cartercc was probably talking about $Perl only. <g>

 

[Cliff MacGillivray]

CM> abuse complaint sent

sent to whom and about what?

If you knew anything about usenet you would know that your message
headers contain an "abuse@" address to direct complaints of this nature.
In your case, "(e-mail address removed)".

it wasn't spam.
Yes, it was. As is that crap you have at the bottom of your messages
advertising your various scams.
I find it more than mildly ironic that a morbidly obese chronically
unemployed person is advertising both a recruiting service AND hot cocoa!

i was just telling him that
there are agents who do understand perl and the perl job market. i just
happen to be the only one. bfd. if i posted stuff here all the time
about it, it would be spam.

At the bottom of all of your posts is not considered "All the Time" !?!?

 

[Tad J McClellan]

If you knew anything about usenet

If you knew anything about usenet you would know that mentioning
your line of business in a .sig is perfectly acceptable.

it wasn't spam.
Yes, it was.

No it wasn't.

It was a direct response to an explicit query.

The OP *asked* for info on agents that know about Real Perl Programmers.

As is that crap you have at the bottom of your messages
advertising your various scams.

If you knew anything about usenet you would know that mentioning
your line of business in a .sig is perfectly acceptable.

At the bottom of all of your posts is not considered "All the Time" !?!?

If you knew anything about usenet you would know that mentioning
your line of business in a .sig is perfectly acceptable.

 

[Jürgen Exner]

Uri Guttman wrote: [...]
abuse complaint sent

Considering that this is only your second contribution to CLPM ever
(first one being vastly off topic about syntax highlighting on web
sites) you are in no a position to critizise a long-standing, active
and valued member of CLPM.

jue

 

[Jürgen Exner]

At the bottom of all of your posts is not considered "All the Time" !?!?

You don't know much about Usenet, do you?

*PLONK*

jue

 

[Chris Davies]

1. Advertise for programmers, Perl or otherwise.
2. Don't fall into the need-to-know trap. A competent programmer who
doesn't know Perl will do you a lot more good in the long run that an
incompetent programmer that does know Perl.
3. Realize that the Perl world has different parts, and that domain
knowledge is just as important as language knowledge if not more so. A
Perl data munger won't help you with Perl sys admin -- hire a sys
admin even if his knowledge of Perl is rudimentary.
4. You should be looking for a competent programmer with domain
knowledge, rather than someone who knows Perl. Ideally you would find
a competent programmer who possesses both domain knowledge and Perl.

I've recently recruited another programmer, and coming from a technical
background I do understand these recommendations. (I make them to
others.)

On the other hand, for the specific requirement I have in mind, I need
an experienced Perl programmer. PHP or Ruby won't do (but they would be
very nice adjuncts). Domain knowledge is unlikely, so that will have to
be taught regardless of technical skills.


Thanks to all those of you who took the time to provide some suggestions
and useful feedback. It's nice to return to CLPM after a break of a year
or three (?) and find that much of the helpfulness is still here.

Chris

 

[sln]

If you knew anything about usenet you would know that mentioning
your line of business in a .sig is perfectly acceptable.




No it wasn't.

It was a direct response to an explicit query.

The OP *asked* for info on agents that know about Real Perl Programmers.




If you knew anything about usenet you would know that mentioning
your line of business in a .sig is perfectly acceptable.




If you knew anything about usenet you would know that mentioning
your line of business in a .sig is perfectly acceptable.

I kind of agree with this. Although, I would like to see hobbies also..

 

[sln]

You don't know much about Usenet, do you?

*PLONK*

jue

Ya know what the thing about plonks is ?


- sln
My *plonk*'s bigger than your *plonk*, my *plonk*'s bigger
than yours, my *plonk*'s bigger than your *plonk*, all the live long day, hey!!