++*p++

[Falcon Kirtaran]

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In what way is VCC "not really an implementation of [C]"?

The idea I'm getting at here is not that Microsoft makes garbage (I'll
leave that up for debate) but that, for a myriad reasons, using a
Microsoft "Visual" C++ compiler is not the greatest way to play with C.

and what are these myriads of ways? If someone has a windows PC
on his desk and he wants to learn C then why shouldn't he use his
PC? And why not VCC? This just looks like knee jerk MS bashing.
In what way, exactly, is a Unix system superior for learning
"the intricacies of C"?

For the record I've used VCC and gcc (gcc on Unix and Windows).
They are both good.

One reason for this is cited by the OP, essentially, in another thread
about %n.

I agree that is *really* bad. There being no command line option
to make the compiler compliant is... disappointing

Another reason is that MSVC++ is a C++ IDE. I recommend UNIX because it
is considerably easier to use gcc on it. I actually did once teach a
class in C using a windows/mingw/gcc setup, and it was a major hurdle
(more so than usual) to get them to the point where they could compile
and run their code.

- --
- --Falcon Darkstar Christopher Momot
- --
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[Guest]

I'm probably going to give this up after this.
Microsoft are far from perfect but that is no reason to keep making
misleading statements about their products.

I understand you've drunk the Windows Bad Unix Good koolaid which
tends
to colour your views. So this isn't addressed to you but to the
newgroup
Lurker who deserves a variety of opinion.

In what way is VCC "not really an implementation of [C]"?

failure to respond noted.


failure to respond to "myriad of ways?" and "why not use his PC?"
noted

Another reason is that MSVC++ is a C++ IDE.

what the *photon* is a "C++ IDE"? It's an IDE. It can compile
either C or C++. The syntax highlighting may have a C++ bias
(I assume it highlights all C++ keywords and not just the
C ones). You can run MS products at the command line (it happens I
don't)
It gives me no problem. gcc is normally command line based but
IDEs exist. I've no idea if they are C or C++.

 I recommend UNIX because it
is considerably easier to use gcc on it.

considered by whom?

 I actually did once teach a
class in C using a windows/mingw/gcc setup, and it was a major hurdle
(more so than usual) to get them to the point where they could compile
and run their code.

Just be aware there is more than one view on what makes a good
environment to learn C. I probably learned on a Mac but I've used
Windows and Unix based command lines. They all work.

 

[Falcon Kirtaran]

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I'm probably going to give this up after this.
Microsoft are far from perfect but that is no reason to keep making
misleading statements about their products.

I understand you've drunk the Windows Bad Unix Good koolaid which
tends
to colour your views. So this isn't addressed to you but to the
newgroup
Lurker who deserves a variety of opinion.

I would not by any means ever consider MSVC++ an exemplar of the C
standard,
I believe Microsoft were quite good about following the standard.
Though they don't seem to have any intersst in the 1999 standard
(to the best of my knowledge).
especially given that it is not really an implementation of
it.
what? Microsoft implement the 1989 C standard. It probably isn't
perfect but which implementation is?
In what way is VCC "not really an implementation of [C]"?

failure to respond noted.


failure to respond to "myriad of ways?" and "why not use his PC?"
noted

Another reason is that MSVC++ is a C++ IDE.

what the *photon* is a "C++ IDE"? It's an IDE. It can compile
either C or C++. The syntax highlighting may have a C++ bias
(I assume it highlights all C++ keywords and not just the
C ones). You can run MS products at the command line (it happens I
don't)
It gives me no problem. gcc is normally command line based but
IDEs exist. I've no idea if they are C or C++.

I recommend UNIX because it
is considerably easier to use gcc on it.

considered by whom?

I actually did once teach a
class in C using a windows/mingw/gcc setup, and it was a major hurdle
(more so than usual) to get them to the point where they could compile
and run their code.

Just be aware there is more than one view on what makes a good
environment to learn C. I probably learned on a Mac but I've used
Windows and Unix based command lines. They all work.

Hmm. In my defense, stating that it is a C++ compiler is equivalent to
stating that it is not a C compiler. Also, yes, most compilers I have
seen in production work, but the way I see it, the more compliant your
compiler is by default, the better you will learn C.

For the record, I don't think that Microsoft is evil or produces useless
products on the whole, but you must admit that standard compliance is
not that big of a thing with them.

Also for the record, I would stipulate that it is not necessary to
pedantically reply to each of your points individually and severally; a
summary ought to be more than sufficient. Nonetheless, I think I am
done with this; it's becoming flames.

- --
- --Falcon Darkstar Christopher Momot
- --
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[Guest]

(e-mail address removed) wrote:

ok, not quite yet!

note well...

Hmm.  In my defense, stating that it is a C++ compiler is equivalent to
stating that it is not a C compiler.

but, IT IS A C COMPILER

I compiled this with VCC, in C mode

int main (void)
{
class Point
{
public:
int x y;
};

Point P;

return 0;
}

I got this
Compiling...
not_c.c

C:\bin\net\not_c.c(5) : error C2065: 'class' : undeclared identifier
C:\bin\net\not_c.c(5) : error C2146: syntax error : missing ';' before
identifier 'Point'
C:\bin\net\not_c.c(6) : error C2065: 'Point' : undeclared identifier
C:\bin\net\not_c.c(6) : error C2143: syntax error : missing ';' before
'{'
C:\bin\net\not_c.c(8) : error C2143: syntax error : missing ';' before
'type'
C:\bin\net\not_c.c(11) : error C2146: syntax error : missing ';'
before identifier 'P'
C:\bin\net\not_c.c(11) : error C2065: 'P' : undeclared identifier
Error executing cl.exe.

 Also, yes, most compilers I have
seen in production work, but the way I see it, the more compliant your
compiler is by default, the better you will learn C.

For the record, I don't think that Microsoft is evil or produces useless
products on the whole, but you must admit that standard compliance is
not that big of a thing with them.

their C and C++ compilers are usually regarded as quite good.
(except they won't do C99)

Also for the record, I would stipulate that it is not necessary to
pedantically reply to each of your points individually and severally; a
summary ought to be more than sufficient.  Nonetheless, I think I am
done with this; it's becoming flames.

ok, fair point

 

[Richard Bos]

Another reason is that MSVC++ is a C++ IDE. I recommend UNIX because it
is considerably easier to use gcc on it. I actually did once teach a
class in C using a windows/mingw/gcc setup, and it was a major hurdle
(more so than usual) to get them to the point where they could compile
and run their code.

All that means is that you understand MS Windows as badly...

- --
- --Falcon Darkstar Christopher Momot
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....as you understand Usenet.

Richard