Python component model

P

Peter Decker

yes, an interesting tool.

But to get more attention and developers, the project needs to be
polished.

really unattractive resources:

http://dabodev.com
http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/DaboAudit

Well, then, why not contribute? Or are you waiting for everyone else
to do it for you?

It really grinds my gears when people take something that involves
hundreds if not thousands of hours of time that is offered to them for
free, and then nitpicks on something completely tangential. If you
want a polished website, then offer to contribute one! Don't whine
about a couple of developers who are doing amazing things in their
spare time while you're contributing absolutely nothing to the
community.
 
R

Robert Kern

Peter said:
Well, then, why not contribute? Or are you waiting for everyone else
to do it for you?

No, he's just a troll that enjoys telling everyone what to do. Don't try to get
him to contribute anything useful; it won't work.

--
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
an underlying truth."
-- Umberto Eco
 
I

Ilias Lazaridis

Peter said:
Well, then, why not contribute? Or are you waiting for everyone else
to do it for you?

I've contributed already (my contructive criticism).

It's up to the team to react.
It really grinds my gears when people take something that involves
hundreds if not thousands of hours of time that is offered to them for
free, and then nitpicks on something completely tangential. If you

project infrastructure is not tangential.

It's essential
want a polished website, then offer to contribute one!

Terrible this open source folks.

One cannot say one word without beeing asked to contribute.
Don't whine
about a couple of developers who are doing amazing things in their

doing amazing things is not enouth to bring a language-community
forward (or to create a python component model, which is the topic of
this thread)
spare time while you're contributing absolutely nothing to the
community.

I share the infrastructure which I use:

http://dev.lazaridis.com/base

..
 
P

Peter Decker

I've contributed already (my contructive criticism).

It's up to the team to react.

Wow! What a contribution! Amazing that Dabo hasn't taken over the
world with that sort of help pouring in!

Anybody can criticize. It's easy to find fault; it's much harder to
create something valuable.

I saw the references to your being a troll, and thought I'd give you
the benefit of the doubt. Guess I'm still too optimistic.
 
R

Robert Kern

Ilias said:
Robert Kern wrote:

Mr. Kern! Seeing you working on such a seemingly excellent product, I
am really wondering about your tenor.

I am confident that it is accurately aimed. Furthermore, I am confident that the
record and the rest of this community will back me up on it. I've told you
before that this community will not tolerate your bad behavior. How many times
does this have to be demonstrated before you will leave?

--
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
an underlying truth."
-- Umberto Eco
 
I

Ilias Lazaridis

Robert said:
I am confident that it is accurately aimed. Furthermore, I am confident that the
record and the rest of this community will back me up on it. I've told you
before that this community will not tolerate your bad behavior. How many times
does this have to be demonstrated before you will leave?

Please stay in-topic

"
can you please inform me (and the interested readers) about the
persistency mechanism within traits:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/8e89ed163b978fe2
"
 
I

Ilias Lazaridis

Peter said:
Wow! What a contribution! Amazing that Dabo hasn't taken over the
world with that sort of help pouring in!

Anybody can criticize. It's easy to find fault; it's much harder to
create something valuable.

[REQUOTE]
I share the infrastructure which I use:

http://dev.lazaridis.com/base
[/REQUOTE]
I saw the references to your being a troll, and thought I'd give you
the benefit of the doubt. Guess I'm still too optimistic.

No.

You're just ignoring given facts in a controlled manner.

Like many other people of this community.

And that's the main reason why python does not move forward in the
speed it could.

..
 
R

Robert Kern

Ilias said:
Please stay in-topic

Asking disruptive individuals to leave is always on-topic. Now, please go away.

I will happily and pleasantly converse with anyone who has questions about
Traits or any of Enthought's other tools if they ask in good faith. I believe
that the record shows that you do not do so. Really, I'm quite nice and helpful
to other people.

--
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
an underlying truth."
-- Umberto Eco
 
I

Ilias Lazaridis

Robert said:
Asking disruptive individuals to leave is always on-topic.

please realize: the only disruptive individual at this point is you.
Now, please go away.

of course I stay.
I will happily and pleasantly converse with anyone who has questions about
Traits or any of Enthought's other tools if they ask in good faith. I believe
that the record shows that you do not do so. Really, I'm quite nice and helpful
to other people.

Sorry to say, but your behaviour is very ungentle.

I've place a simple question. If you are really helpful to other
people, then pleas just answer.

Many other people follow this discussion, and many will see the
question within the archives... unsanswered.

"
looks interesting.

what about persistency?

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/8e89ed163b978fe2
"

As far as I can see, there's no persistency binding available.

Is one planned?

..
 
K

Kay Schluehr

Peter said:
How many programmers don't use Python because of the self issue?

The only reason I know why self shall not be inforced is reducing the
number of troll postings.
 
P

Peter Maas

Kay said:
The only reason I know why self shall not be inforced is reducing the
number of troll postings.

The only method that works to reduce the number of troll postings is:
spot them, then ignore them.

But some lengthy threads in c.l.p suggest that quite a few c.l.p
participants enjoy conversation with trolls or are slow at spotting :)
 
P

Peter Maas

Peter said:
I think you should take a good look at Dabo and the visual tools they
are creating.

Thanks for the hint, Peter. I've heard of Dabo and it's on my list of
things to be inspected. Perhaps my postings have been misunderstood. I don't
feel uneasy with Python. I'm using it since 4 years and know how to find
the tools I need. But I feel uneasy with an excessive readiness of some
c.l.p participants to accept Python as it is and even to react defiantly
on friendly suggestions how to make Python a more obvious choice for
newcomers. I think this is important for Python's survival.
 
E

Ed Jensen

Paul Boddie said:
People who bring up stuff about self and indentation are just showing
their ignorance

Ouch. That stings.

Python's "indentation determines scope" makes it hard for me to discuss
Python via mediums like IRC and instant messengers.

It also makes it hard to quickly jump to the top and/or bottom of
code blocks in most editors I use on a day to day basis.

I guess I'm just ignorant. :(
 
P

Paul Boddie

Ed said:
Ouch. That stings.

Python's "indentation determines scope" makes it hard for me to discuss
Python via mediums like IRC and instant messengers.

True, especially with the helpful first line indentation in some
messengers.
It also makes it hard to quickly jump to the top and/or bottom of
code blocks in most editors I use on a day to day basis.

I'm not at the cutting edge here: 20j and 20k are the commands (replace
20 with another suitable amount) which help me jump around in my editor
of choice. The other commands which may be more effective just aren't
in my "working set".
I guess I'm just ignorant. :(

Don't be too hard on yourself, Ed! I was really referring to people who
make a big advocacy issue out of self (eg. "Python isn't
object-oriented - it has self parameters!") and indentation (eg.
"Python's just like Fortran!"). You're just pointing out the issues
that regrettably make communication of Python programs difficult.

Paul
 
P

Peter Wang

Edward said:
It looks as if traits is an attempt to create a "property" in the
component terminology which I originally specified. I will take a look
at it.

Traits is frighteningly similar to the requirements that you laid out
in your post (the example for Skip), including delegates! I would like
to point out, however, that traits is a *general* component framework
for python that facilitates implementing the observer pattern and a
higher level of introspection. It can be used to build applications
that have no visual interfaces at all, but wish to benefit from the
"reactive programming" style that componentized, event-based
programming encourages. (induces?)

Traits UI, which Robert only alluded to, is actually very much the sort
of RAD environment you have described. It builds upon the component
model, and uses introspection to automagically create nice widgets for
your model, but adds mechanisms for specifying controllers, customizing
behavior, and generically composing complicated forms from simpler
ones. There is even a visual "builder" tool for it called VET that
closely resembles Delphi/C++ Builder. (The VET itself is, of course,
written using Traits UI.)

Envisage, the plugin application framework, can use the traits
component models and the TraitsUI interfaces to roll out very dynamic
applications, whose underlying models are all live components that can
be scripted, twiddled with from an embedded Python shell, etc.
Already subscribed. Thanks !

Please contribute ideas or ask conceptual questions!

Oh, and disclaimer: I also work at enthought. :)


-peter
 

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