Python Forum

[Emile van Sebille]

Is there now a non-email method of posting to this list?

Google <==> comp.lang.python <==> python-list <==>
gmane.comp.python.general

where <==> is a bi-directional gateway.[/QUOTE]

Yes -- I use gmane as well. But, IIRC, I needed to be on the mail list
in order for my responses to show up because MailMan is the primary back
end and I thought it's set to only accept posts from members.

Hence, my question. Aren't we all members posting (ultimately)
exclusively through email regardless of preferred reading interfaces?

Emile

 

[Alf P. Steinbach]

* John Bokma, on 04.06.2010 20:19:

I don't think that was the point.

Anyway, not everbody can pick a provider, there are plenty of places
that have only one or maybe two. And if that's the choice and neither
carries Usenet you have to pay for Usenet like I do. Note that I
consider it well worth the 10 euros I pay for it.

To me, it looks like the use of Usenet for text is on the
decline. I've been away from Usenet for like a year or so and could see
quite a difference. More and more ISPs in my experience are dropping
Usenet from their services. Mind, I think that the number of users on
Usenet (text only) still exceeds the number when I first used Usenet
(back in the early 90's). But usage is on the decline as far as I can
tell. On top of that I see people I know from Usenet now quite active on
Stack Overflow and sister sites.

Finally, I have to disagree with your disagreement (which is just a
personal experience) based on my personal experience: it's harder to
find an ISP that carries Usenet. And I have experience with, oh, just 3
countries where I have been living in for the past 10 years.

True.

While Usenet traffic is still exponentially increasing, most of that's in binary
groups, and it's spam.

I think much of the decline of Usenet is correlated with an increase of laws
designed to limit free speech and support all kinds surveillance. It started, as
I see it, back in the early 90's with Playboy attempting to sue anyone who used
the Lena picture in photo processing tests etc. (it's the standard image for
that). They failed in that particular endeavour, but did succeed in shutting
down thousands of sites worldwide displaying Playboy pictures. The Church of
Scientology picked up on the idea that a private company can /control/ net
content worldwide by way of laws designed for other things. The record and movie
industry caught on to this. Governments of some special countries such China,
Saudi-Arabia and Iran, plus, very suprising to me, Australia, caught on to it,
that is, the idea of controlling net content, or at least access to that
content. Then finally George W. Bush caught on to it, and with American ISPs
legally responsible for the content of the traffic, well, the following from
Wikipedia isn't quite chronological but is quite clear:


<quote src="The Wikipedia article about Usenet">
In 2008, Verizon Communications, Time Warner Cable and Sprint Nextel signed an
agreement with Attorney General of New York Andrew Cuomo to shut down access to
sources of child pornography.[31] Time Warner Cable stopped offering access to
Usenet. Verizon reduced its access to the "Big 8" hierarchies. Sprint stopped
access to the alt.* hierarchies. AT&T stopped access to the alt.binaries.*
hierarchies. Cuomo never specifically named Usenet in his anti-child pornography
campaign. David DeJean of PC World said that some worry that the ISPs used
Cuomo's campaign as an excuse to end portions of Usenet access, as it is costly
for the internet service providers. In 2008 AOL, which no longer offered Usenet
access, and the four providers that responded to the Cuomo campaign were the
five largest internet service providers in the United States; they had more than
50% of the U.S. ISP marketshare.[32] On June 8, 2009, AT&T announced that it
would no longer provide access to the Usenet service as of July 15, 2009.[33]

AOL announced that it would discontinue its integrated Usenet service in early
2005, citing the growing popularity of weblogs, chat forums and on-line
conferencing.[34] The AOL community had a tremendous role in popularizing Usenet
some 11 years earlier,[citation needed] with all of its positive and negative
aspects. This change marked the end of the legendary Eternal September. Others,
however, feel that Google Groups, especially with its new user interface, has
picked up the torch that AOL has dropped—and that the so-called Eternal
September has yet to end.[citation needed]

In August, 2009, Verizon announced that it would discontinue access to Usenet on
September 30, 2009.[35][36]

In April 2010, Cox Communications announced (via email) that it would
discontinue Usenet service, effective June 30, 2010. JANET(UK) announced it will
discontinue Usenet service, effective July 31, 2010, citing Google Groups as an
alternative.[37] Microsoft announced that it would discontinue support for it's
public newsgroups (msnews.microsoft.com) from June 1, 2010, offering web forums
as an alternative.
</quote>


In short, in the future you will no longer be able to access old articles via
archives such as Google Groups (Google picked up that archive from Deja News).

Until some replacement for Usenet appears, online discussion will in general be
effectively /local/, unknown to all but the parties currently using a given web
forum, and it will in general not be archived.

As I see it, those who have made and continue to make the decisions to make it
that way, want it that way.


Cheers,

- Alf

 

[Lie Ryan]

Just jumping in the middle, but if you're looking for a web based forum
where you can ask questions, check out Stack Overflow (and sister sites,
depending on your question). I've noticed over the last couple of months
that often things I google for, are answered on Stack Overflow. One
thing that would've been nice to have on Usenet that I like is the
ability to vote answers up or down. I think Usenet would've been a bit
better with that option.

Probably. A vote up/down feature tend to highlight popular problems, but
it also buries less popular problems that might have perfectly good
answers. I think Google Groups have 5-star-rating system? You might want
to check on that.

 

[Lie Ryan]

I don't think that was the point.

Anyway, not everbody can pick a provider, there are plenty of places
that have only one or maybe two. And if that's the choice and neither
carries Usenet you have to pay for Usenet like I do. Note that I
consider it well worth the 10 euros I pay for it.

Isn't gmane available where you live? I've used gmane for newsgroups
that my local server doesn't carry. The only problem is that there's a
slight delay in opening new posts (0.5 seconds or so).

 

[Lie Ryan]

Google <==> comp.lang.python <==> python-list <==>
gmane.comp.python.general

where <==> is a bi-directional gateway.

Yes -- I use gmane as well. But, IIRC, I needed to be on the mail list
in order for my responses to show up because MailMan is the primary back
end and I thought it's set to only accept posts from members.

Hence, my question. Aren't we all members posting (ultimately)
exclusively through email regardless of preferred reading interfaces?[/QUOTE]

No, I don't.

 

[John Bokma]

* John Bokma, on 04.06.2010 20:19:

True.

While Usenet traffic is still exponentially increasing, most of that's
in binary groups, and it's spam.

I think much of the decline of Usenet is correlated with an increase
of laws designed to limit free speech and support all kinds
surveillance.

In my experience, as in people I know who've left Usenet, reasons for
leaving Usenet are:

1) spam, number 1 culprit being Google.
2) newbies who don't care about posting guidelines
3) regulars in their ivory towers

Other reasons:

4) MFA (Made for AdSense) sites that pretend to be a forum but just
harvest all data from Usnet
5) trolls and kooks.

It started, as I see it, back in the early 90's with
Playboy attempting to sue anyone who used the Lena picture in photo
processing tests etc. (it's the standard image for that). They failed
in that particular endeavour, but did succeed in shutting down
thousands of sites worldwide displaying Playboy pictures.

I know of the use of Lena. And to be honest, I agree with Playboy that
they have the copyright. Some of the articles published on image
processing end up behind a paywall or in a book. And I don't think the
authors will be very happy if I convert their work in PDFs and offer it
as free download on my site. Everybody wants a free ride until they have
to create and maintain the rides in their own precious time with their
own money.

[...]

Until some replacement for Usenet appears, online discussion will in
general be effectively /local/, unknown to all but the parties
currently using a given web forum, and it will in general not be
archived.

I like Stackoverflow and its sister sites a lot.

 

[John Bokma]

Probably. A vote up/down feature tend to highlight popular problems, but
it also buries less popular problems that might have perfectly good
answers.

Unless I misunderstand, the voting is for the replies, not for the
questions. Or maybe the questions can be promoted to a queue, no
idea. But that's not that different from questions posted to Usenet. The
popular ones are asked often, the less popular ones once in a while, and
might also not result in solutions.

I think Google Groups have 5-star-rating system? You might want
to check on that.

Brrrr... no, I really prefer my Usenet via Gnus ;-).

 

[John Bokma]

Isn't gmane available where you live? I've used gmane for newsgroups
that my local server doesn't carry. The only problem is that there's a
slight delay in opening new posts (0.5 seconds or so).

I am aware of Gmane [1] but in their own words: "Gmane is a mailing list
archive.", so it's not Usenet. It's a Usenet server which provides
access to mailing lists. (A very cool idea).

But I am with Individual.net and IMO very great service for just 10
euro.


[1] http://johnbokma.com/mexit/2005/01/14/gmane-mail-to-news.html

 

[geremy condra]

I know of the use of Lena. And to be honest, I agree with Playboy that
they have the copyright. Some of the articles published on image
processing end up behind a paywall or in a book. And I don't think the
authors will be very happy if I convert their work in PDFs and offer it
as free download on my site. Everybody wants a free ride until they have
to create and maintain the rides in their own precious time with their
own money.

Playboy permits use of the image for research, so unless you planned
on getting permission from the authors first this is a totally invalid
comparison.

Geremy Condra

 

[John Bokma]

Playboy permits use of the image for research,

OK, then I don't get the issue, and if you can enlighten me on it I will
be thankful.

so unless you planned
on getting permission from the authors first this is a totally invalid
comparison.

Clear. But my free ride remark stands IMO

 

[Grant Edwards]

Isn't gmane available where you live? I've used gmane for newsgroups
that my local server doesn't carry. The only problem is that there's a
slight delay in opening new posts (0.5 seconds or so).

I am aware of Gmane [1] but in their own words: "Gmane is a mailing list
archive.", so it's not Usenet. It's a Usenet server which provides
access to mailing lists. (A very cool idea).

No, it's not a Usenet server.

It's a mailing-list gateway that provides access via NNTP. Usenet is
a peer-to-peer system that trasfers articles around between servers.

NNTP is a protocol often used to provide access to Usenet servers
(Usenet was around long before NNTP). NNTP can be used to provide
access to other things (as Gmane does).

 

[Terry Reedy]

Google <==> comp.lang.python <==> python-list <==>
gmane.comp.python.general

where <==> is a bi-directional gateway.

Yes -- I use gmane as well. But, IIRC, I needed to be on the mail list
in order for my responses to show up because MailMan is the primary back
end and I thought it's set to only accept posts from members.[/QUOTE]

I think this somewhat depends on the list (admin settings)

 

[Lie Ryan]

Unless I misunderstand, the voting is for the replies, not for the
questions. Or maybe the questions can be promoted to a queue, no
idea. But that's not that different from questions posted to Usenet. The
popular ones are asked often, the less popular ones once in a while, and
might also not result in solutions.

If you look at Stack Overflow, the highest voted questions are:

- Hidden Features of C#?
- What is the single most influential book every programmer should read?
- What's your favorite "programmer" cartoon?
- What is your best programmer joke?
.... and so on

many of them are nearly out-of-topic.

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

I thought his point was they are big enough to have the resources to
offer newsgroups but don't. If I want fast internet I must use Comcast
and Comcast doesn't offer newsgroups either. Sadly is seems getting
access to newsgroups is getting harder and harder.

I'm sorry for all you people who don't live in a place with a genuinely
free market, and instead have to suffer with the lack of competition and
poor service of a monopoly or duopoly masquerading as a free market. But
*my* point was that your woes are not universal, and Usenet is alive and
well. It might be declining, but it's a long, slow decline and, like
Cobol, it will probably still be around a decade after the cool kids
declared it dead.

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

Probably. A vote up/down feature tend to highlight popular problems, but
it also buries less popular problems that might have perfectly good
answers. I think Google Groups have 5-star-rating system? You might want
to check on that.

I don't remember the URL, but I read an article about Yahoo Answers which
explained that the Yahoo team started off with 5-star ratings for
answers, but quickly discovered that most ratings were either 0 or 5, and
so changed to a Vote Up/Down system. According to Yahoo's experience, the
extra complexity just adds an illusionary sense of precision with no
additional benefit.

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

Kidding, right? Cost to spam is virtually zero so the ROI is pretty
close to infinite no matter how many people they reach.

What, you think the Russian mob hands out their botnets for free?

Spam is a business. An evil, unethical, immoral, scum-sucking business,
but still a business, and like all businesses, spammers care about cost
and profit. The marginal cost of sending spam might be approaching zero,
but the total cost isn't, and spammers try to maximise the number of
eyeballs they reach while minimising the cost. If they weren't, they
would still be using the same spam techniques from the 90s, instead of
engaged in an arms race with anti-spam apps.

This is why things like picture spam comes in waves. Every few months,
some newbie spammer hits on the brilliant idea of putting his spam in a
jpg image, carefully obfuscating it so that OCR software can't recognise
the URL but humans can, pays his $200 (or whatever it is) to rent a
botnet, and for two weeks everybody gets an uptick in spam because the
anti-spam apps can't filter picture spam very well.

And then they discover that the morons who buy from spammers aren't just
stupid, they're lazy too. Nobody is going to type the URL into their
browser, that's too much like actual work. So the spammer learns that his
investment didn't make him any profit, and he tries something else, or
gives up, and the picture spam disappears for a few more months until
some other newbie fails to think things through.

If there weren't people reading the spam on Usenet and buying whatever
junk is being sold, the spammers would move on.

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

I know of the use of Lena. And to be honest, I agree with Playboy that
they have the copyright.

I don't think that anyone argues that Playboy don't own the copyright.
What they don't own is the principle of fair use.

Some of the articles published on image
processing end up behind a paywall or in a book.

Perhaps. So what? Publishing dozens of photos from Playboy isn't fair
use. Publishing a single copy of Lena is. Fair use doesn't cease to be
fair use if you put it in a book.

And I don't think the
authors will be very happy if I convert their work in PDFs and offer it
as free download on my site. Everybody wants a free ride until they have
to create and maintain the rides in their own precious time with their
own money.

I'm sorry, Playboy took that photo of Lena, what, thirty years ago? In
what possible sense do they have to maintain it? Do they have to
photoshop out the wrinkles each year to maintain the photo's youthful
appearance?

 

[John Bokma]

If you look at Stack Overflow, the highest voted questions are:

- Hidden Features of C#?
- What is the single most influential book every programmer should read?
- What's your favorite "programmer" cartoon?
- What is your best programmer joke?
... and so on

many of them are nearly out-of-topic.

What do you mean with out-of-topic? (off topic?)

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/python

But to be honest I mostly end up on Stack Overflow when I google for a
specific problem, and most of the time I find a nice concise answer
without much noise.

 

[John Bokma]

I'm sorry for all you people who don't live in a place with a genuinely
free market,

If such a thing exists it still doesn't mean that each and every place
where one can live has plenty of choice. Even in the Netherlands, where
I am originally from, which is quite crowded there are plenty of places
where the number of provider options are limited. But I don't think you
should feel sorry for those people, because the majority is not
interested in Usenet (well, the "text" part) and the few who do will
find a way. On top of that, not every provider has the expertise to
handle Usenet resulting in a very crappy service nobody cares about.

and instead have to suffer with the lack of competition and
poor service of a monopoly or duopoly masquerading as a free market. But
*my* point was that your woes are not universal, and Usenet is alive and
well. It might be declining, but it's a long, slow decline and, like
Cobol, it will probably still be around a decade after the cool kids
declared it dead.

Well, I've noticed quite some groups I used to follow have become "dead"
in less than a year, so while I have no doubt you're correct with the
decade, I don't think there is much fun in being subscribed to 20 groups
only to find one message a month :-D. I use email to stay in contact
with some regulars of groups that indeed do have just one message /
month. I doubt it has anything to do with being a cool kid or not. Some
groups also dry up because the topic has been discussed to dead and/or
it's easier to nowadays find the information on line somewhere else. And
yet others, in my opinion, dry up because the people who are holding the
fort are IMO sitting in ivory towers and have extremely little patience
with newbies but are also somewhat tired with each other because they
don't want to end up in the same discussion again.

So, yeah, Usenet will be around for decades, I don't doubt it. I am
convinced that in a decade from now the total number of users will still
be higher than 20 years ago so it's far from dead then. But I guess that
will make it only more so that one has to pay for access.

 

[Lie Ryan]

What do you mean with out-of-topic? (off topic?)

yeah, "off-topic", that's the word.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/python

But to be honest I mostly end up on Stack Overflow when I google for a
specific problem, and most of the time I find a nice concise answer
without much noise.

Same here. But the point is, since Google bypasses the voting system,
that's why I don't see much added value in having a voting system.