S
Steven D'Aprano
I blame my keyboard, where letters A and K are practically right next to
each other, only seven letters apart. An easy typo to make.
I blame my keyboard, where letters A and K are practically right next to
each other, only seven letters apart. An easy typo to make.
T
Tim Chase
I suppose I should have modified my attribution-quote to read "Steven
D'Kprano wrote" then
-tkc
C
Chris Angelico
“It’s an easy mistake to make†the PFY concurs “Many’s the time I’ve
picked up a cattle prod thinking it was a lint remover as I’ve helped
groom one of your predecessors before an important board meeting about
slashing the IT budget.â€
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/26/bofh_2010_episode_18/
ChrisA
R
Roy Smith
Chris Angelico said:
What means "PFY"? The only thing I can think of is "Poor F---ing
Yankee"
C
Chris Angelico
What means "PFY"? The only thing I can think of is "Poor F---ing
Yankee"
In the context of the BOFH, it stands for Pimply-Faced Youth and means
BOFH's assistant.
ChrisA
W
wxjmfauth
Le dimanche 1 décembre 2013 00:07:36 UTC+1, Ned Batchelder a écrit :
I'm speaking about those times where the "characters" (some) were
not even built with metal, but with wood (see Garamond, Bodoni).
---------
Unicode is "only" collecting "characters" in the sense "abstract
entities". What is supposed to be a "character" is one problem.
How a tool is supposed to handle these "characters" is a problem
too, but a different one.
"Unicode" is not a coding scheme, it is a "repertoire".
Illustrative examples instead of explanations.
The ffl ligature is a "character" because it has always
existed.
The & and œ are considered today as unique "characters".
They were historically "ligaturated forms".
The Fahrenheit, Kelvin and Celsius are considered as
"characters", despite Fahrenheit, Kelvin are "letters".
Text justification. Calculating the space between "words"
in "rendering units" makes sense. Using a specific "character"
like a thin space to force a predefined space makes sense too.
The miscellaneous zeroes one may see, like uppercase O, O with
a dot in the center or a striked O are all the same zero, but
with stylistic variants, => a single "character" in the unicode
table.
.... but this medieval "character" existing in two forms (I do not
remember which one) was finally registrated as two "characters",
and not as a stylistic variant of a single "character".
There are no "characters" for the symbols of the chemical elements,
a latin script is good enough.
The QPlainTextEdit widget from Qt does not know '\n'. It uses
only the paragraph separator and the line separator. To render
a paragraph separator, it uses one another "character", the
pilcrow.
The µ "character" in the iso-8859-1 coding scheme is a greek
letter, it must be used or percieved as a SI unit prefix.
Unicode category: Ll, unicode name: micro sign.
How to place an arrow (vector) on top of an ê, if one cann't
decompose it?
Related, there are dotless variants of i and j.
STIX fonts with the huge number of math symbols, not
yet in the unicode repertoire but present in the PUA.
etc.
Unicode is quite open. It's a good idea to keep that
openess to the developer. Shortly, if a coder decomposes
a "character" like "â" in a "a" plus a "^", it's up to
the developer to know what to do when reversing such a
string and to count this sequence as two real "characters".
jmf
I'm speaking about those times where the "characters" (some) were
not even built with metal, but with wood (see Garamond, Bodoni).
---------
Unicode is "only" collecting "characters" in the sense "abstract
entities". What is supposed to be a "character" is one problem.
How a tool is supposed to handle these "characters" is a problem
too, but a different one.
"Unicode" is not a coding scheme, it is a "repertoire".
Illustrative examples instead of explanations.
The ffl ligature is a "character" because it has always
existed.
The & and œ are considered today as unique "characters".
They were historically "ligaturated forms".
The Fahrenheit, Kelvin and Celsius are considered as
"characters", despite Fahrenheit, Kelvin are "letters".
Text justification. Calculating the space between "words"
in "rendering units" makes sense. Using a specific "character"
like a thin space to force a predefined space makes sense too.
The miscellaneous zeroes one may see, like uppercase O, O with
a dot in the center or a striked O are all the same zero, but
with stylistic variants, => a single "character" in the unicode
table.
.... but this medieval "character" existing in two forms (I do not
remember which one) was finally registrated as two "characters",
and not as a stylistic variant of a single "character".
There are no "characters" for the symbols of the chemical elements,
a latin script is good enough.
The QPlainTextEdit widget from Qt does not know '\n'. It uses
only the paragraph separator and the line separator. To render
a paragraph separator, it uses one another "character", the
pilcrow.
The µ "character" in the iso-8859-1 coding scheme is a greek
letter, it must be used or percieved as a SI unit prefix.
Unicode category: Ll, unicode name: micro sign.
How to place an arrow (vector) on top of an ê, if one cann't
decompose it?
Related, there are dotless variants of i and j.
STIX fonts with the huge number of math symbols, not
yet in the unicode repertoire but present in the PUA.
etc.
Unicode is quite open. It's a good idea to keep that
openess to the developer. Shortly, if a coder decomposes
a "character" like "â" in a "a" plus a "^", it's up to
the developer to know what to do when reversing such a
string and to count this sequence as two real "characters".
jmf
S
Serhiy Storchaka
30.11.13 02:44, Steven D'Aprano напиÑав(ла):
4
W
wxjmfauth
0.11.13 02:44, Steven D'Aprano напиÑав(ла):
BTW, a grapheme cluster *is* a code points cluster.
jmf
BTW, a grapheme cluster *is* a code points cluster.
jmf
T
Tim Delaney
Anyone with a decent level of reading comprehension would have understood
that Steven knows that. The implied word is "individual" i.e. "... rather
than [individual] code points".
Why am I responding to a troll? Probably because out of all his baseless
complaints about the FSR, he *did* have one valid point about performance
that has now been fixed.
Tim Delaney
T
Tim Delaney
I don't remember him ever having a valid point, so FTR can we have a
reference please. I do remember Steven D'Aprano showing that there was a
regression which I flagged up here http://bugs.python.org/issue16061. It
was fixed by Serhiy Storchaka, who appears to have forgotten more about
Python than I'll ever know, grrr!!!
something here. The consequences are nowhere near as dramatic as jmf claims
...."
His initial postings did lead to a regression being found.
Tim Delaney
E
Ethan Furman
I don't remember him [jmf] ever having a valid point, so FTR can we have a reference please. I do remember Steven D'Aprano
showing that there was a regression which I flagged up here http://bugs.python.org/issue16061. It was fixed by Serhiy
Storchaka, who appears to have forgotten more about Python than I'll ever know, grrr!!!
The initial complaint came, unsurprisingly, from jmf. But don't worry much, even a stopped clock has a better track
record... it's at least right twice a day.
M
Mark Lawrence
On 2 December 2013 09:06, Mark Lawrence <[email protected]
I don't remember him ever having a valid point, so FTR can we have a
reference please. I do remember Steven D'Aprano showing that there
was a regression which I flagged up here
http://bugs.python.org/__issue16061
<http://bugs.python.org/issue16061>. It was fixed by Serhiy
Storchaka, who appears to have forgotten more about Python than I'll
ever know, grrr!!!
From your own bug report (quoting Steven): "Nevertheless, I think there
is something here. The consequences are nowhere near as dramatic as jmf
claims ..."
His initial postings did lead to a regression being found.
Tim Delaney
I'll begrudgungly concede that point, but must state that it was was an
edge case that is unlikely to have too much impact in the real world.
Unfortunately he's still making his ridiculous claims about the FSR,
hence my nickname of "Joseph McCarthy". I'll admit to liking that, it
just feels right to me, YMMV.
What also really riles me is that he uses double spaced google crap,
despite repeated requests from various people here for others to fix how
they use it, or get a decent email client.
W
wxjmfauth
Le dimanche 1 décembre 2013 21:54:48 UTC+1, Tim Delaney a écrit :
My English is far too be perfect, I think I understood
it correctly.
The point in not in the words "grapheme" or "code point",
neither in "individual", ;-), the point is in "rather".
If one wishes to work on a set of graphemes, one can
only work with the set of the corresponding code points.
To complete Serhiy Storchaka's example:
True
is correct.
jmf
PS I did not even speak about the FSR.
My English is far too be perfect, I think I understood
it correctly.
The point in not in the words "grapheme" or "code point",
neither in "individual", ;-), the point is in "rather".
If one wishes to work on a set of graphemes, one can
only work with the set of the corresponding code points.
To complete Serhiy Storchaka's example:
True
is correct.
jmf
PS I did not even speak about the FSR.
N
Ned Batchelder
As annoying as baseless claims against the FSR were, wxjmafauth is
right: he didn't even mention the FSR in this thread. There's really no
point dragging this thread into that territory.
--Ned.
C
Chris Angelico
What he does is make very sure that the awesomeness of Python 3.3+ is
constantly being brought up on python-list. New users of Python who
come here will, within a fairly short time, learn that Python actually
gets Unicode right, unlike most languages out there, and that it's
efficient and high performance.
ChrisA
N
Ned Batchelder
His PS is in reference to you, Ethan, and Tim reminiscing about his past
complaints against the FSR. He made three posts to this thread before
you started in on him, and none of them mentioned the FSR. Tim first
mentioned it.
There's no need to call him "the worst loser in the world." Nothing
good will come from that kind of attack. It doesn't make this community
better, and it will not change his behavior.
He said nothing in this thread that insulted the Python core developers.
His posts in this thread are not about the FSR, and yet you dragged the
old fights into it. You are being the troll here.
--Ned.
T
Terry Reedy
Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
python-list. Please stop.
E
Ethan Furman
I think Python is doing it correctly. If I want to operate on "clusters" I'll normalize the string first.
Thanks for this excellent post.
M
Mark Lawrence
The attacks that "Joseph McCarthy" has been launching on the core
developers for the last 15 months are in my view now perfectly
acceptable. This is excellent news. Everybody can now say what they
like about the core developers and there's no comeback.
You can also stuff the code of conduct, it's quite clearly only brought
into play when it suits. Never, ever aim it at somebody who goes out of
their way to stir things up, always target it at the people who fight
back *IS THE RULE HERE*.
N
Ned Batchelder
This is where my knowledge about Unicode gets fuzzy. Isn't it the case
that some grapheme clusters (or whatever the right word is) can't be
normalized down to a single code point? Characters can accept many
accents, for example. In that case, you can't always normalize and use
the existing string methods, but would need more specialized code.
--Ned.