Python Webstart ?

[Roger Binns]

I sincerely don't understand why a Python Webstart would be more

then you really don't understand what WebStart does.

I object to different packaging systems than my OS uses. When I use
Windows I expect programs to arrive as setup.exe, to add themselves
to the Add/Remove programs in the Control Panel etc. On Redhat boxes,
I expect them to arrive as rpms. On my Gentoo box, I expect them
to be part of portage.

The problem I have with webstart and systems of its ilk is that
they introduce yet another packaging mechanism disjoint from that
of the OS. Sure they try to make it convenient. But as a user
I really don't care that something is being packaged in a particular
way so it can be compatible with the packaging on other machines.
In fact as a user, I really don't care what programming language
is used for any programs, and I don't want hurdles.

Of course as a developer I do care about all that stuff, but trying
to expose it to users doesn't achieve anything.

Roger

 

[huy]

But as a user

I really don't care that something is being packaged in a particular
way so it can be compatible with the packaging on other machines.
In fact as a user, I really don't care what programming language
is used for any programs, and I don't want hurdles.

Most of my users don't know as much as you do. What's an rpm ? what's a
programming language ? The users I know only know how to surf the web.

Of course as a developer I do care about all that stuff, but trying
to expose it to users doesn't achieve anything.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you against webstart
or not ? Can't get easier then clicking on a link to install a program.

Huy

 

[Roger Binns]

Most of my users don't know as much as you do. What's an rpm ? what's
a programming language ? The users I know only know how to surf the
web.

That is exactly what I am stating. On Windows, they are used to
installing stuff using setup.exe and on Linux using the vendor
packaging tool. Same for removing programs (Add/Remove Programs
and whatever the vendor tool is respectively).

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you against webstart
or not ? Can't get easier then clicking on a link to install a
program.

I am against the current implementations of webstart. They introduce
a parallel packaging system that isn't the same as the one already
on the user's OS.

Roger

 

[Cameron Laird]

SVN sounds attractive because, among other things, it's _designed_ to be
scripted with Python (and no doubt in other ways, but I've noticed the
Python part only). However, it sounds as if all you need is some
variant of "os.system('svn up')" at program start (_before_ importing
any module that is part of the app), so that 'cvs up' or any other
revision control system would be just as fine.

And most likely so would be a roll-your-own approach, which might go
something like...: .
.
.
There -- in barebones term, isn't that roughly what you need? Sure, you
can conceive enhancements of it, a lot of them -- enhanced error
handling (this one doesn't DO much..., a log of what was updated when
(that might take the place of the tiny local_ver_filepath file), keeping
version numbers in the same zipfile as the modules rather than in a
small separate file (you still want a separate URL on the server so you
can check that no update is needed as fast as possible, of course), etc,
etc. But, roughly speaking, it does appear to me that this
twelve-statements-or-less function just ight meet your need even better
than svn or cvs would... depending on your exact needs, of course!-)

.
.
.
I've been hesitating to say this, for fear language territoriality
would obscure the serious concepts afloat here. I think it's time,
though ...

The Tcl community has made fascinating progress on what I call "deploy-
ment" issues. Places to begin reading: <URL: http://wiki.tcl.tk/ped >,
<URL: http://wiki.tcl.tk/deployment >, and <URL: http://wiki.tcl.tk/vfs >.
If nothing else, I think it might interest Pythoneers to read that, "oh,
if I solve *this* problem, then a user-maintained help system falls out",
and so on.

 

[Andrew Dalke]

I object to different packaging systems than my OS uses. When I use
Windows I expect programs to arrive as setup.exe, to add themselves
to the Add/Remove programs in the Control Panel etc. ...

You probably use more programs than those on your desktop.
You can think of Google, Yahoo, eBay, etc. as web-based
applications for their specific tasks. These differ from
your OS in that they have no local installation. You go
to the right URL and start using it.

They also differ in that they have limited access to local
resources. I believe WebStart's goal is to expand on the
latter while acting like the former.

Andrew
(e-mail address removed)

 

[John J. Lee]

The Tcl community has made fascinating progress on what I call "deploy-
ment" issues. Places to begin reading: <URL: http://wiki.tcl.tk/ped >,
<URL: http://wiki.tcl.tk/deployment >, and <URL: http://wiki.tcl.tk/vfs >.

[...]

Not sure, as a user, that I'm a great fan of the mutable
program-plus-data-in-a-big-lump concept...

- One can usually rely on data files to stay put, and not to start
rewriting themselves (well, ok, at least on non-windows OSes ;-/).

- Do I want to be forced to back up 10Mb of Python+Metakit every time
I back up my data?

- Other than that, as a user, why do I care?

As a developer, what does this approach offer above tools like py2exe
/ Installer &c?

I am underwhelmed by the idea of dynamic debugging. Seems like a
solution looking for a problem.


John

 

[Cameron Laird]

.
.
.

Not sure, as a user, that I'm a great fan of the mutable
program-plus-data-in-a-big-lump concept...

- One can usually rely on data files to stay put, and not to start
rewriting themselves (well, ok, at least on non-windows OSes ;-/).

- Do I want to be forced to back up 10Mb of Python+Metakit every time
I back up my data?

- Other than that, as a user, why do I care?

As a developer, what does this approach offer above tools like py2exe
/ Installer &c?

I am underwhelmed by the idea of dynamic debugging. Seems like a
solution looking for a problem.

.
.
.
John, those are healthy instincts.

It'll take a while to answer fully. Part of the answer depends on
this: 10 megabytes is inconsequential. That's false, of course; I
often work on old equipment, through dial-up, and so on, so I know
that bytes count. For much of current computing, though, 10 Mb
doesn't matter (and incidentally, my deliverables frequently fit on
a floppy).

One big benefit is what Metakit's inventor calls freedom from
installation. The point is that an application is a single file.
If you want it, you have that single file. If you want to discard
it, you remove a single file. End-user configuration confusions
are so common and costly that this consideration alone makes big-
lumps a win (and keep in mind that, as I wrote above, I often fit
my big lumps on a floppy; compare that to typical VC++ or Java
practice).

So, as a user, you care because the model is simple for you. There's
one file. Back it up, move it, delete it--the concept doesn't com-
plexify. It's the way computers are supposed to work.

More, later.

 

[Roger Binns]

You probably use more programs than those on your desktop.
You can think of Google, Yahoo, eBay, etc. as web-based
applications for their specific tasks. These differ from
your OS in that they have no local installation. You go
to the right URL and start using it.

They also differ in that they have limited access to local
resources. I believe WebStart's goal is to expand on the
latter while acting like the former.

Very good points. I have no issue with the *goals* of webstart,
just the current implementation. And I would have the same
issue with something targeted at Python. It is important
that a parallel packaging system is not introduced.

Effectively the packaging systems are zero install (ie a
bookmark/link you can use in any browser) or the system
native one. A hybrid of the two gives you the worst of
both worlds.

The test I use is: how do I remove the program?

Roger