<q> and language-specific quotation marks

S

Sid Ismail

: Fine. But then, what about <blockquote> ? Considering that a typical
: <blockquote> looks like:
: <blockquote><p>first paragraph</p><p>second paragraph></blockquote>
:
: where should we put the quotation marks ? Outside of the <blockquote> ?

Easiest is to give the blockquote a background-color:#ccc if the body
background is white, etc. Stands out nicely, and dispenses with the need
of outside quote marks.

Sid
 
V

Vincent

Toby said:
Well, the best answer is that you don't! Large quoted sections are best
Click to expand...

Well, it seems that this is indeed the best approach ! I was sure that
long quotations had to be delimited by quotation marks, but this is
completely wrong, which makes your answer perfectly sound !
 
B

Brian

Vincent said:
I read somewhere that in this case, quotation marks should ideally
appear outside of <quote> element, like this: "<quote>quotation</quote>"
instead of <quote>"quotation"</quote>
Click to expand...

Why is the first method preferable to the second?
 
V

Vincent

Brian said:
Why is the first method preferable to the second?
Click to expand...

Well, because strictly speaking, quotation marks are not part of the
quotation itself. I can admit, though, that this is a bit far-fetched...
 
J

John Dunlop

Toby said:
Well, the best answer is that you don't! Large quoted sections are best
identified by indenting and then maybe italicising.
Click to expand...

OK. And perhaps further stylistic features too.
If you did want to add quote marks:

<blockquote><p>'first paragraph</p><p>'second paragraph'</p></blockquote>
Click to expand...

Interesting. I'm under the impression, and it seems you are too,
that most style guides suggest quotation marks oughtn't to be used
around quotations that are set-off from the text [1]. Period.
(Note: no closing quote in first paragraph. This is consitant with proper
English punctuation. Indeed, this post assumes that the page language and
thus quoting style is English.)
Click to expand...

I'd say that your abovementioned usage of quotation marks is
applicable only when a quoted multi-paragraph passage is *run-in*
to the text. In such cases, it seems to be the norm to place
quotation marks at the beginning of every paragraph and at the end
of the final paragraph [2].

Would you try to markup a quotation like that? or would you rather
reformulate the text so as not to be cornered into using such a
device?


[1] The Chicago Manual of Style, sec. 10.28 (if anyone's
got it).

[2] Ibid., sec. 10.29.
 
T

Toby A Inkster

John said:
OK. And perhaps further stylistic features too.
Click to expand...

Indeed - borders are nice, or a different coloured background (e.g. grey
<blockquote> on a normally white <body>) or slightly smaller text or, to
take a leaf out of some e-mail clients' books:

blockquote {
margin-left: 0;
border-left: medium solid blue;
padding-left: 1em;
}

Maybe use CSS backgrounds to add over-sized pastel '66 and 99's to the
quote, magazine-style.
If you did want to add quote marks:

<blockquote><p>'first paragraph</p><p>'second paragraph'</p></blockquote>
Click to expand...

Interesting. I'm under the impression, and it seems you are too,
that most style guides suggest quotation marks oughtn't to be used
around quotations that are set-off from the text [1]. Period.
Click to expand...

Well I personally wouldn't use the quote marks at all (except perhaps the
magazine-style ones). The example was merely to demonstrate where you
would put the quote marks if you felt you needed to use them. (e.g. You
are targetting a theoretical browser that doesn't support CSS nor make the
<blockquote> element stand out in any way.)
 
N

Nick Kew

one of infinite monkeys said:
Well, the best answer is that you don't! Large quoted sections are best
identified by indenting and then maybe italicising.
Click to expand...

There's a widely-used convention followed by most newsreaders and
many mailers to indent blockquotes with the characters "> ".
Some - including google in a Web context - add colour to that.

Italics and indentation are of course an option, but can be harder on
the eye if the quote is longer than a couple of lines.
(Note: no closing quote in first paragraph. This is consitant with proper
English punctuation. Indeed, this post assumes that the page language and
thus quoting style is English.)
Click to expand...

Now you're in .browsers territory:)
 
S

Stan Brown

I've been reading this thread with interest, but I still can't make up
my mind about how to use <q> and <blockquote> (or <quote> and
<blockquote> in XHTML 2.0).

Indeed, short and long quotations should be surrounded by quotation
marks in some way.
Click to expand...

If by "long quotations" you mean quotations that are long enough to
be presented in a separate paragraph, with wider margins than normal
body text, then standard practice is to present them _without_
quotes. "Material set off from the text as a block quotation is not
enclosed in quotation marks." -- /Chicago Manual of Style/, 13th ed,
section 10.29

Short quotations: in line, with " marks.
Long quotations: separate indented paragraphs, without " marks.

British practice may vary; I don't know.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
 
S

Stan Brown

If by "long quotations" you mean quotations that are long enough to
be presented in a separate paragraph, with wider margins than normal
body text, then standard practice is to present them _without_
quotes.
Click to expand...

Sorry -- I meant to say "standard American practice". At least I did
remember to say:
British practice may vary; I don't know.
Click to expand...

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
 
J

Jonathan Snook

Stan Brown said:
Short quotations: in line, with " marks.
Long quotations: separate indented paragraphs, without " marks.
Click to expand...

I've often seen this style of quotation (especially in newspaper or magazine
articles):
---
"There was a great paragraph full of text. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet,
consectetuer adipiscing elit. Sed commodo turpis sed sem. In hac habitasse
platea dictumst. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et
ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Sed pharetra, purus in molestie hendrerit,
lectus dolor semper lacus, eu consequat metus sem in arcu. It was great
indeed.

"Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Because it was a
paragraph, I loved it so."
---
How should this text be marked up?

I've managed to find a couple sites that seem to indicate the use of
quotations marks above as valid when there is more than one paragraph of
text being quoted. [E.g.: http://www.wilbers.com/quotes.htm]

Jonathan
 
J

Jools

Stan said:
Sorry -- I meant to say "standard American practice". At least I did
remember to say:
Click to expand...

There are various methods that people use. At my university (Leeds, UK) we
were expected to use the 'Harvard Method' which used the practices you
described. Other institutions may differ in their interpretation
 
S

Stan Brown

<qnIkb.203318$ko%[email protected]> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Jonathan Snook
I've often seen this style of quotation (especially in newspaper or magazine
articles):
---
"There was a great paragraph full of text. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, ....
lectus dolor semper lacus, eu consequat metus sem in arcu. It was great
indeed.

"Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Because it was a
paragraph, I loved it so."
Click to expand...

You'll see that in newspapers and magazines because the columns are
already very narrow. Cutting several ems off the column width would
make it nearly impossible to justify the text.

Yes, the quotes are correct when the "block quote" is not indented.
There is a quote at the start of every quoted paragraph and one at
the end of _only_ the last quoted paragraph.

But this style is a substitute for the standard way. Books and Web
pages usually have plenty of ems for a comfortable column width, and
therefore have room and to spare for the indention.

So, since you ask, I would mark this up as
<blockquote><p>There was a great ... indeed.</p>
<p>Lorem ipsum ... I loved it so.</p></blockquote>

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
 
J

Jukka K. Korpela

John Dunlop said:
I'm under the impression, and it seems you are too,
that most style guides suggest quotation marks oughtn't to be used
around quotations that are set-off from the text [1]. Period.
Click to expand...

That's correct, but when _are_ the quotations set-off from the text?
In HTML authoring for the WWW, we can pretty much say that we never
know whether they are.

I have to major points here:
(1) blockquote elements aren't always indented
(2) indentation is not an unambiguous indication of quotation.

For (1), the simplest (and probably most important) example is speech
browsers. For (2), just consider the widespread abuse of <blockquote>
for mere indentation of something that's not quoted at all but e.g.
just emphasized or (!) de-emphasized text.

As I explain in some detail at
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/bq.html
I don't think quotation marks are the solution (for blockquote),
though. Rather, _words_ should be used so that it is apparent from the
text _as read aloud_ that there is a quotation in it and where it
begins and ends. It takes some creativity at times to write such things
in a manner that looks natural in visual presentation, but it can be
done.
 
V

Vincent

Jukka said:
As I explain in some detail at
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/bq.html
I don't think quotation marks are the solution (for blockquote),
though. Rather, _words_ should be used so that it is apparent from the
text _as read aloud_ that there is a quotation in it and where it
begins and ends. It takes some creativity at times to write such things
in a manner that looks natural in visual presentation, but it can be
done.
Click to expand...
I do agree with you that we should clearly introduce the quotation with
words to make it obvious to visual UAs *and* speech browsers, but this
should not prevent us from using good typography style, i.e. using
quotation marks if necessary (and if possible).

Well, as I said before, it just appears in this case that they are not
necessary anyway :) Typography rules are looser than I thought in this
specific area (at least in French, I don't know enough about English and
other languages).
 

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