Re: The worst 'hello world' example ever written...

[Mike Smith]

And did you stop there are did you continue on to where it amended that
statement with:

A conforming implementation may provide more versions of main(), but they must
all have return type int.

In case you can't read, it means that void main() was never specified but it can
be if you so choose to do so, just so long as you always have int main() as one
of your implementations.

Wrong! *All* versions of main() must return int. It says so in plain
English; you just typed it yourself! What can vary are the *parameters*
to main().

 

[Mike Smith]

Using void main() does not alter the behavior of any well-formed program and the
compilers all have debuggers which recognize void main() as ISO compliant and
well-formed.

No, they *recognize* it. That does not mean they recognize it as
*compliant*, which it isn't.

We aren't talking about whether the code is correct here, but whether it is ISO
compliant.

That's true. It is neither correct nor compliant.

 

[Mike Smith]

Speaking of evidence, I defy you
to cite one reference from IBM, Microsoft, or Borland
claiming that *any* version of *any* C++ compiler they
have produced is 100% ISO/ANSI compliant.

MS, in fact, openly refers to their latest C++ compiler as "98% compliant".

http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/productinfo/overview/whatsnew.aspx

"With 98-percent conformance, Visual C++ .NET 2003 is more conformant to
ISO C++ standards than any previous version of Visual C++, and it
contains new language support for features including Koenig Lookup and
Partial Template Specialization."

 

[Mike Smith]

In any case, I'm sure that "The_Sage" is laughing his behind off
because he's had this argument going on for quite some time based
totally on a lie; I bet he's real amused that everyone fell for this
nonsense of his, hook, line, and sinker (not that a semicolon is valid,
but that Borland and MS compilers would actually accept this nonsense).

I don't think that anyone here thought for one second that either
Borland or MS would compile that example.

 

[Attila Feher]

Sage, you have crossed that very line, which is not to be crossed.

Do I see right that Sage somehow got cut off this newsgroup?

 

[Kevin Goodsell]

Do I see right that Sage somehow got cut off this newsgroup?

Where do you see that? I'm not aware of any way for that to actually
happen (but then, I don't know that much about the functioning of usenet).

-Kevin

 

[Attila Feher]

Where do you see that?

He was posting a lot, now he does not. BTW observe the wuestion mark.

I'm not aware of any way for that to actually happen.

One possibility is when one keeps calling people idiots on the usenet and
ones service provider decides to stop providing the service.

 

[David B. Held]

[...]
One possibility is when one keeps calling people idiots on
the usenet and ones service provider decides to stop
providing the service.

That seems extremely unlikely. After all, which ISP has
the resources to monitor Usenet usage??? More likely,
The Sage realized that he wasn't going to get anywhere,
and decided to focus his energies in other crackpot
pursuits.

Dave

 

[Attila Feher]

"Sage" appear...to be honest, I think the "embarass him and Hope he'll
go away" strategy probably won't work on him, as I suspect he's doing
this very delibrately in a "sophisicated troll" way...but, well, it's
worth a try, at least...

Well, he did go away. And possibly it had more to do with "send his abusive
posts in full source to his NSP and ask kindly to cut them off the net"
strategy than the one you have mentioned. But of course it might only be
that he is away abusing cats and he will be back. :-(

 

[Attila Feher]

[...]
One possibility is when one keeps calling people idiots on
the usenet and ones service provider decides to stop
providing the service.

That seems extremely unlikely. After all, which ISP has
the resources to monitor Usenet usage??? More likely,
The Sage realized that he wasn't going to get anywhere,
and decided to focus his energies in other crackpot
pursuits.

The ISP has a good chance to catch those posts if they are forwarded in full
source to their usenet-abuse email address. Then again, The Sage might just
be outdoors for few days, abusing cats.

 

[Attila Feher]

P.S. When you corner him, he'll start swearing and calling you names
and launching a personal attack...just to give you forewarning to
expect this vulgar conduct and not to take it too personally, as he'll
do it to _anyone_ who starts to prove that he's talking complete
nonsense...

Well, as I have posted already: that is where he has crossed that line not
to be crossed. If he keeps posting personal insults and attacks those
personal insults and attacks will end up in his NSPs abuse-reporting mailbox
within hours. BTW after sending the first such report he has disappeared.
I just hope it is not a coincidence. I am usually very very patient in
this regard. I have actually sent mail to NSPs of two people in many years
(not counting off-topic spammers). Well, The Sage was one. The other was a
guys who has accused everyone being the hand of evil or some other sickness
(Rodolfo something). He came back. Using another NSP. To end up in my
killfile when he started to post from his 3rd ISP...

P.P.S. Actually, "C", perhaps it was unwise and not terribly clever to
cross-post the Sage over to other groups...we wouldn't want to have
him "spread" and "infect" other groups...he's bad enough in ours that
we can't wish him upon anyone else...

Well, let's see. I hate the tactics I started to use but he was not only
driving people nuts, but starting to abuse people (by calling them names)
and not only the newsgroup. Let's see if he will be back. And if he will,
I guess (according to what you have said) it won't take too much for us here
to make him post things what no decent NSP will allow... Especially if they
get a hundred complaints per day.

 

[Beth]

I think now our C++ newsgroup friends can start to appreciate what I
mean about Sage's trolling tactics...he's clearly a complete moronic
baffoon when it comes to facts and even being able to read simple
English statements correctly...and, yet, he somehow just keeps on
getting people to respond to him in massive threads which take over
entire newsgroups for weeks...it's a persistent and insistent threat
that just refuses to go away (even if you kill-file Sage because
everyone else is somehow strangely attracted to always replying to
him, all their responses end up flooding a group with "noise")...he's
just soooo stupid, you can't believe that someone could be this
seriously in need of help and it plays on people's humanity to want to
do something - _anything_ - that might help him comprehend what most
people could manage by age 3...whether delibrate or not, it's an
amazingly effective trolling tactic he employs of complete stupidity
because, somehow, it _works_...people just keep replying and keep
feeding the troll, misguidedly thinking they may help him to "reform"
or something (it's not worth it, though...he's been like this and
hasn't learnt a thing in about a year of intermittent posting to
alt.lang.asm...he does disappear once in a while so I'm wondering if
that's when he's merely pestering some other group instead?)...

Sometimes, I'm not sure whether to consider him an absolute genius at
trolling (because he really does manage to somehow hook in on his
line, even the most rigidly "don't feed the trolls" respectable
posters, who'd ordinarily fell any other type of troll dead in their
tracks within a single post) or whether he really is just seriously
insane and completely braindead for real...but, as I pointed out to
the folks at alt.lang.asm, there's some evidence - which is "hiding in
plain sight" - that he might very well be doing this all very
delibrately and it is definitely trolling...

Look at the quote in his signature very closely:

"The men that American people admire most extravagantly are
most daring liars; the men they detest the most violently are
those who try to tell them the truth" -- H. L. Mencken

You don't think he might possibly be so misguided and stupid as to
actually take this quote in the wrong way and believe that if he lies
sufficiently then all (American) people will start to Adore him and
admire him? In some really twisted way, all he wants is "to be Loved
and Love in return" (to probably misquote the Bard, as I'm going
totally from memory there)?

Either way, he's clearly in need of some serious, professional
help...I'm starting to agree with Randy on this...I think this could
be an actual serious mental condition or something he's got here,
perhaps...and, now, more than ever, we must stand firm by the Golden
Rule: "Do not feed the trolls"...no matter how amazingly tempting it
is to do so in the Sage's case...

Beth

 

[Beth]

I'm sorry, I just couldn't sit back and watch you make a jackass of
yourself any longer without saying anything.

Be careful of that; I'm becoming increasingly convinced (after
watching the Sage do this sort of thing on and off for about a year)
that this is _exactly_ his clever trolling strategy...he delibrately
makes a dick of himself because, sure, we _all_ can't resist...and all
feel we can't "sit back and watch him make a jackass of himself any
longer"...

When he first showed up on alt.lang.asm, I also thought exactly the
same and made loads of replies...but, really, stick firm: "Don't feed
the trolls" under _any_ circumstances when that troll's name is
"The_Sage"...now I only bother to reply to Sage just to have some
"fun" and "sport" with his complete lunancy (at the very least, it can
sometimes be highly amusing to watch, if you don't take it all that
seriously)...

Take deep breaths...keep calm...this is just the Sage's alternative
troll method of provoking a reaction...act like a total dick and
people just can't resist pointing out what a total dick you're
being...but this only serves to feed the troll...he'll next probably
try to start making legitimate claims again - which draws more people
into proper discussions - then he acts a dick, then he becomes
semi-normal again, then acts like a dick all over again...

It's using this dual "back and forth" strategy that he gains what I
call the "sophisicated troll" status...his arguments aren't
sophisicated at all...being a total moron is part of the
strategy...but this method of _trolling_ is quite clever because it
makes him the troll that people just keep on feeding over and over,
refusing to die whatever you do...he may disappear and shut up for a
month or two...but, sure enough, at least in alt.lang.asm, he starts
it all up again when he's feeling bored and he's perfected this
strategy to unparalleled levels...it really _does_ somehow just keep
on working for him...

Really, _let him_ be a jackass...I know how tempting it is to do
otherwise...but the Golden Rule really does still apply: "Do NOT feed
the trolls" under any circumstances whatsoever...

Beth

 

[Attila Feher]

I think now our C++ newsgroup friends can start to appreciate what I
mean about Sage's trolling tactics...he's clearly a complete moronic
baffoon when it comes to facts and even being able to read simple
English statements correctly...and, yet, he somehow just keeps on
getting people to respond to him in massive threads which take over
entire newsgroups for weeks...it's a persistent and insistent threat
that just refuses to go away (even if you kill-file Sage because
everyone else is somehow strangely attracted to always replying to
him, all their responses end up flooding a group with "noise")...he's

Beth. There is a very good tactic against such trolls like The Sage or that
whateverMind from comp.objects. Just put all threads they start or
conteminate to be ignored. I suggest this because you seem to be very
concerned and passionate about his behaviour... but posting long analysis of
his personality is only good to keep his thread alive. Thanks God he is not
posting now for a while. Let's let this thread die of starvation.

 

[Beth]

Someone who defies the standard itself, and then quotes the
draft standard as support, and then continues arguing that
"void main()" is legal C++ is utterly unqualified to speak an
iota about portability.

Agreed; This was the original context in which the Sage produced this
"main" code, trying to tell us all about "portability"...hence, I
presume the cross-post was a vain attempt to get you experts in C++
matters to second this same conclusion we'd reached...

Note, look how much response the Sage can generate from one bad
two-line "Hello world" implementation...combined with the nonsense in
alt.lang.asm too, this is a monsterously large thread to deal with
such a minor thing...

I point this out because the Sage _is_ just a troll...an amazingly
effective one...if he's true to form, he'll suddenly change the topic
completely mid-thread and then manage to generate twice as much
response (replies to the idiocy he shows in his new topic and also
replies against him suddenly changing subject mid-way through, which
is tantamount to admitting defeat on the last topic...although, he
will stubbornly _refuse_ to admit that changing the subject half-way
through is an avoidance tactic in any way...but that, somehow,
"debuggers" are an important part of ISO conformance, which he'll
"prove" by talking complete bollocks for the next three weeks...before
changing the topic again...and again...and again)...and he's _very
good_ at this...even the original poster who invented the phrase
"don't feed the trolls" will find themselves eventually feeding him...

He continual varies his tactics at provoking a reaction and that his
why I refer to this as "sophisicated trolling"...by constantly
changing, no-one can keep up and you might even be tempting to think:
"oh, at last! He's beginning to see the light" so you start responding
to him again...at which point, he'll start it all over again...

He's a complete idiot about everything else but a consumate genius
when it comes to trolling...even with my outright warnings, we can
just watch...he'll _still_ be reeling people in for weeks until they
work it all out themselves that, yes, the _only_ thing that works is
to _ignore him_...completely...

Beth

 

[Beth]

Sage, you have crossed that very line, which is not to be crossed.

Oh, no...this is actually quite restrained from "our" Sage...the final
trick in his bag is just to be so outrightly offensive that the person
he insults understandably feels they have to defend themselves or
attack back...the tradition "flame" pushed as far as he can make it
go...

There wasn't any grossly offensive swearing and cursing in this case
and that's actually amazingly restrained from Sage...perhaps he senses
"losing battle" this time and is going to hold back that honour until
he's got a better winning position - in trolling terms, his arguments
are _never_ in a winning position, as you may have guessed from his
continual moronic comments - from which to launch his trademark
assaults...

Beth

 

[Beth]

He was posting a lot, now he does not. BTW observe the wuestion mark.

One possibility is when one keeps calling people idiots on the usenet and
ones service provider decides to stop providing the service.

Nope, sorry...it's a nice thought and I only wish it could be true...

But this is how the Sage operates...he'll disappear for a while and
then reappear with some new amazingly ludicrous claim by which to
start it all off again...my guess is, he does it like this so that you
don't just get used to his tactics and then they cease to work...by
doing it in "short bursts", it's hard to get accustomed to his tricks
(we've suffered what must be at least a year - maybe more - of this
intermittently in alt.lang.asm, that the patterns _do_ eventually
become clear as crystal)...like Arnie, he'll be back (though, as
you've only met him through cross-posting, Hopefully this means he
won't be back to haunt you C++-ers again...Hopefully, this has not
given him a "taste" - like a shark with blood - for coming back to
haunt you lot (again, I understand the idea of cross-posting it
because you guys know your stuff about "main" functions to totally
prove Sage to be a complete idiot...but I still think the cross-post
was unwise because he's NOT a "virus" you want to "infect" people
with...he should be strictly "quarantined" without exception)...but I
would put money on it that he'll _definitely_ be back to haunt us
ASMites for sure)...

Beth

 

[Beth]

The ISP has a good chance to catch those posts if they are forwarded in full
source to their usenet-abuse email address. Then again, The Sage might just
be outdoors for few days, abusing cats.

The second one - about abusing cats - sounds like the Sage...I think
we'll find it's definitely the "abusing cats" thing...if he was
kicking off by an ISP then I'm sure he'd just find another free Email
address somewhere and start it all again...trust me, he's NOT this
easily defeated...I only wish he was, as this isn't just a rare thing
in alt.lang.asm...he does this repeatedly and persistently and,
unfortunately, always manages to rope enough people in that it's a
serious threat to ordinary discussion...

Beth

 

[Attila Feher]

Oh, no...this is actually quite restrained from "our" Sage...the final
trick in his bag is just to be so outrightly offensive that the person
he insults understandably feels they have to defend themselves or
attack back...the tradition "flame" pushed as far as he can make it
go...

Beth. Please stop bringing this thread up. Thank you.

 

[Beth]

Well, as I have posted already: that is where he has crossed that line not
to be crossed. If he keeps posting personal insults and attacks those
personal insults and attacks will end up in his NSPs abuse-reporting mailbox
within hours. BTW after sending the first such report he has disappeared.
I just hope it is not a coincidence. I am usually very very patient in
this regard. I have actually sent mail to NSPs of two people in many years
(not counting off-topic spammers). Well, The Sage was one. The other was a
guys who has accused everyone being the hand of evil or some other sickness
(Rodolfo something). He came back. Using another NSP. To end up in my
killfile when he started to post from his 3rd ISP...

I suspect the Sage would only come back using another NSP
too...although, I'd also stress that suddenly disappearing mid-thread
is completely typical Sage...perhaps, in fact, it's his way of
ensuring he doesn't get himself reported too often...at the point when
he's started boiling people's blood to want to do that, he quickly
disappears so everyone calms down again...then, of course, returns
some weeks later to do it all again...

Really, he's easily underestimated because of the total nonsense he
posts...I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that he's actually
not really that stupid and is quite skilled at some amazingly
effective trolling tactics...in fact, the whole thing of acting like a
total moron in front of everyone I suspect is all part of the plan...I
mean, just look how many reactions his outright denial of the
semantics of the English language generates...and, also, every once in
a while, a fiendishly clever argument emerges that could in no way
come from the same "idiot" who wrote what you just read...it's all
part of the plan, I reckon...I mean, it _works_ beautifully to get
enraged reactions, doesn't it?

Well, let's see. I hate the tactics I started to use but he was not only
driving people nuts, but starting to abuse people (by calling them names)
and not only the newsgroup. Let's see if he will be back. And if he will,
I guess (according to what you have said) it won't take too much for us here
to make him post things what no decent NSP will allow... Especially if they
get a hundred complaints per day.

It might work...you might think me stupid but it's a whole "principle"
thing I have going...I've never and will never kill-file _anyone_
(but, sure, I'll happily _ignore_ anyone who's not making any sense
nor do I "grass" (that's UK slang..."inform" in everyone else's
English on anyone...I have my reasons for this and, yes, accept the
consequences of these decisions...so, actually, I have no idea how
effectively something like that would work on Sage...it might, indeed,
be worth a shot...

Beth