Ruby Black Belt

[Dave Burt]

... Right now, there are

only two languages where it's usually safe to assume that someone who
knows "language" is also a good developer (Ruby and Python) ...

Wow! That's a big claim! Can you support that at all? What do you mean by
it?

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Peter Szinek]

The problem with rubyquiz is that there is no continuity, it starts off at
a very high level, newbies have to search around looking for a simple starting
exercise, probably picking the wrong one, getting frustrated, giving
up, and then I look
for a new exercise to try.. and I get frustrated again ..err.. I mean
"newbies" get
frustrated again.. ahem.. anyway..

Well, this post was exactly about my issue in this thread, just Alex
expressed much more better. I have been describing *exactly* the same
thing. http://www.pythonchallenge.com/ has the great advantage that it
goes gradually from 'how much is 2^38' till really advanced issues, and
to go on you were forced to study the techniques needed in a funny and
addictive way.

Btw, what would You (the whole list) think about porting
www.pythonchallenge.com to Ruby? (E.g. we could name it... huh... let me
think... maybe rubychallenge.com? ;-) By the 'porting' i mean several
different possible levels:

1) (e.g. one-to-one: this you can do actually as-it-is, up to a certain
level the stuff is solvable even in Java - however, the difference would
be that the solutions (there is a wiki for solutions) and the discussion
would be in Ruby rathen than in Python. This is the quickest, but
definitely not the best solution.

2) Using the same style, create a different site with different riddles;
This would be the ultimate solution, but it takes time of course. Time
is the only negative factor here, all the other ones are positive ( Ruby
style, thus geared towards ruby constructs like blocks, metaprogramming
etc..., much improvements (i have also some ideas ;-) etc). The idea we
need is:

-) it gets harder gradually, thus you have to learn techniques from n00b
to pro
-) you have to solve level n to go to n+1
-) some really cool riddles
-) good solutions, discussions etc.
-) +improvements - we could introduce even more goodies!

There are some possible levels of porting inbetween 1) and 2). Of course
the best would be the everything-from-scratch extreme if somebody would
have time for this (e.g. i would be happy to participate myself, but to
do this alone would be too time consuming for me due to other tasks. So
if somebody would like to start with this, LMK). python challange also
started of much mire simpler, just a few riddles, then they were added
gradually as people were flooding the authors with 'give me more' ;-)

BTW. pythonchallallange.com was also inspired by notpron
(www.deathball.net/notpron - titled ' - The Hardest Riddle Available on
the Internet') so actually it would not be a 'franchise steal'.

If somebody is sceptic about this kind of stuff, he has to try
pythonchallange to see how addictive it is - it really stirred up the
python list, everybody was looking for answers in different techniques
(wrt the task he solved ATM), i remember myself to even neglecting
normal work to swish through XML-RPC, HTTP and cookies related python
stuff just to get past a certain level ;-)

What do you think?

peter

 

[Peter Szinek]

If somebody is sceptic about this kind of stuff, he has to try

pythonchallange to see how addictive it is - it really stirred up the
python list, everybody was looking for answers in different techniques
(wrt the task he solved ATM), i remember myself to even neglecting
normal work to swish through XML-RPC, HTTP and cookies related python
stuff just to get past a certain level ;-)

What do you think?

peter

btw I forgot to add: I came to know a LOT of non-programmers through
python challange - i have been mailing on a (nearly) dayly basis with
an US (non programmer) girl (i think se was a lawyer) up to the 18th or
something level. When she begun she did nothing about programming at
all, after 1 week he has been posting about regexps, after 2 weeks about
bzip2 from python, after 3 weeks cookies and HTTP, well you get the
idea... She was really enthusiastic to learn this stuff (which is IMHO
not typical for a non technical person) just to see the next screen...
And she was not the only one...

My point is that this kind of stuff has a great potential to evangelize
the language to the noob/beginner/i'll-give-it-a-try/non-programmer
people. You can put down pickAxe because of other tasks. You can neglect
reading ruby talk. But you will not be able do this (at least based on
my experience, and based on others solving python challange) with
rubychallange.com! ;-)

Ruby quiz is very cool, but such a girl i have described above would
never had a chance to begin it.
This is of course absolutely OK: ruby quiz is intended for a different
audience.

peter

 

[Daniel Baird]

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btw I forgot to add: I came to know a LOT of non-programmers through
python challange - i have been mailing on a (nearly) dayly basis with
an US (non programmer) girl (i think se was a lawyer) up to the 18th or
something level.

I can meet girls if I change from Ruby to Python?
Bye-bye, Ruby-using suckers!

;Daniel

--
Daniel Baird
http://danielbaird.com (TiddlyW;nks! :: Whiteboard Koala :: Blog :: Things
That Suck)
[[My webhost uptime is ~ 92%.. if no answer pls call again later!]]

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[why the lucky stiff]

I think tryruby is awesome. I've given the link to people who
were interested in ruby but not only had never tried it, they
had very little programming experience. The feedback has been
positive (apart from the session timing out when they took a
short break.

Hey, thanks, Bill. By all means, pass it around. I'm moving tryruby to
a machine with a lot more power and memory (and the application is a bit
more lightweight now) so I should be able to increase the time limits.
I'm also working on checkpointing the thing so sessions can be stored on
disk and resumed later.

_why

 

[Randy Kramer]

Okay, I went over to this pythonchallenge.com and got to level 3 (using
irb, hehehe). It was semi-fun, and I can see how it might appeal to
some people.

It seems like a lot of work to do anything similar, at least in whole.
Perhaps whoever is going to do this could start small, and just work up
over time.

Hmm, I didn't get past Level 1. (Did I start at the wrong place--you start
with a cryptic "Hint: try to change the URL address."?)

Anyway, the idea as I imagined it in my mind sounded good, the actual
implementation of the idea annoys me, it seems like one of those adventure
games where you search all over the place until you get lucky and find
something useful.

Anyway, ignoring all that, I'd be interested in seeing something implemented
along the lines I imagined--you go to some page where there is a fairly well
laid out problem to solve (with adequate descriptive text). There is some
way for you to provide an answer (either via a code fragment, or maybe some
(well thought out) multiple choice answers. If you answer the question
right, you get credit for a "level" and move to the next challenge. If you
answer it wrong, you can either try again (immediately) or seek (and find)
resources to help you understand what you didn't understand before.

I was hoping that the Python challenge site included a listing of the problem
they solved at each of the challenge levels, and what they expected the
challenger to learn as a result--is there such a list?

Anyway (I guess I like that word), although I'm quite busy at the moment, I
suggest anybody who is interested in this just start--by adding their
thoughts to this thread, and then moving thoughts somewhere else as they jell
(sp?).

What makes sense as the first challenge for something like that? I guess over
on Python challenge, it has to do with (after changing the URL) to something
related to 2**38. And, of course, there is the traditional "Hello, World!"
program. Anybody have other suggestions for either the first challenge or
any subsequent challenges?

(If we don't find anything better, I'd propose to start creating relevant
pages on WikiLearn (http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Wikilearn).

Randy Kramer

Oh, I have challenge #27 (just guessing at the number)--install Ruby, tcl/tk,
TkHTML, and whatever else is required to make TkHTML display a simple HTML
string like <h3>Test page</h3> (with the correct HTML). (Then do the same
for wxHTML, kHTML, Gecko, and ???

 

[Dmitry Buzdin]

Thanks Steven!

I have checked and corrected everything.

As to the purpose of the exams - it will be definetly not for the
splitting Ruby people by certified and uncertified. Like I said it is
for educational purposes and for fun

The Ruby has not so many documentation (especialy for libs) and
sometimes You just don't know that there is a more attractive and DRY
way to do things. Taking exams is a way to compare your knowledge to
the knowledge of other people who created and approved the questions
and a different way to learn. I can at least say that it works for me
when I have taken Java exams.

As for fears that it will be an exam only covering syntax, I could say
that it is called "Ruby Basic" for reason. The next step will be to
create next levels, like exams for specific libraries, Rails, design
style, OO patterns or something else. If you have some ideas please
share.

It will be possible to add your questions and evaulate existing ones in
the closest time. At the beginning Ruby exams will be mixed with all
the Java stuff. But if there will be interest shown, it will be posible
to divide all Ruby exams from Java and create a separate assesment
platform.

Dmitry

 

[Robert Dober]

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Thanks Steven!

I have checked and corrected everything.

As to the purpose of the exams - it will be definetly not for the
splitting Ruby people by certified and uncertified. Like I said it is
for educational purposes and for fun

I do not think anybody implied you would, sorry if it came over like this.
But believe me, someone else would.
BTW I encourage you doing this, because if you feel it is a good thing to
do, do so.
Some people prefer not to participate in this, that is all. Personal choice=
s
we have to take and to respect.
On the other hand I would love to talk you out of it


The Ruby has not so many documentation (especialy for libs) and

sometimes You just don't know that there is a more attractive and DRY
way to do things. Taking exams is a way to compare your knowledge to
the knowledge of other people who created and approved the questions
and a different way to learn. I can at least say that it works for me
when I have taken Java exams.

If it worked for you it will work for others, so if such an exam turns out
harmful eventually (I think it will, but I might be wrong), at least there
will be benefits.
It does not work for me though.

At the beginning Ruby exams will be mixed with all

the Java stuff.

That will make Java look a clumsy language!!! (one can object the term
"language" if one wants)
Maybe that will serve the Ruby community after all.

But if there will be interest shown, it will be posible

to divide all Ruby exams from Java and create a separate assesment
platform.

Dmitry


Just to be clear, I am still against it!

But if it is eventually done I will adjust my judgement.
Personally I would love it becomes much more "educational" than
"certification".

Cheers
Robert


--
Deux choses sont infinies : l'univers et la b=EAtise humaine ; en ce qui
concerne l'univers, je n'en ai pas acquis la certitude absolue.

- Albert Einstein

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[Hampton]

James-

Yeah, that was a nice one. Just very suble at the end.

Like waving a red cape in front of a newsgroup full of bulls!

Also, good frigg'n work on the Elevator Pitch site. Yesterday I had the
rather horrible experience of having to pitch my company to a VC who
didn't seem to get it. So, can't wait to perfect the pitch for the next
one.

Maybe the next one will have ever heard of Ruby. Doubt it.

-hampton.

 

[James Britt]

James-

Yeah, that was a nice one. Just very suble at the end.

Like waving a red cape in front of a newsgroup full of bulls!

Tact is my specialty.

Also, good frigg'n work on the Elevator Pitch site.

Thank you. I work with very good people.


--
James Britt

http://www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
http://www.artima.com/rubycs/ - The Journal By & For Rubyists
http://www.30secondrule.com - Building Better Tools

 

[Austin Ziegler]

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[Bill Guindon]

...although it *might* be arguable that many Ruby programmers are certifi=

able.

Might? I thought it was a requirement. You mean you're therapist
didn't tell you to sign up for this list? I know mine did.

 

[James Britt]

Might? I thought it was a requirement. You mean you're therapist
didn't tell you to sign up for this list? I know mine did.

Must be a quack.











--
James Britt

http://www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
http://www.artima.com/rubycs/ - The Journal By & For Rubyists
http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
http://refreshingcities.org - Design, technology, usability

 

[Meiao]

What about something like Programming Challenges
(www.programming-challenges.com)?
It could use those problems or even the Ruby Quiz ones.
What would you guys think?

I really like that site.

 

[Benjohn Barnes]

Yes yes... but I meant BESIDES that.

Kind of rubyquizlets.com?