Ruby momentum?

T

tsuraan

I *think* the point was that the hype made it harder to get others to
take even a first look at Rails.
=20
"Oh, Rails; the code that turns water into wine. Yeah, right."
=20
The other down side, for me, is that I'm beginning to take every
non-negative statement about Rails, even fairly benign ones, with a
large grain of salt.
=20
The hype can foster a sense of mistrust.

Hah! I'm not crazy :) Anyhow, that's exactly what I was trying to
say. thanks :)
 
J

Jim Freeze

* David Heinemeier Hansson said:
There's no doubt that breaking through the awareness barrier leaves a
residue of backlash with some. I wrote about this subject and some of
the ecosystem numbers at http://www.loudthinking.com/arc/000484.html

I wouldn't touch RoR with a ten foot pole, but those
Java, Peral and Python projects that are trying their
hardest to copy what RoR's provides, now, those tools
are OK.
 
S

Scott Ellsworth

gregarican said:
Very true. For larger companies there are typically some PHB's that
look at the current popular technology trends and hop on those
bandwagons. "Let's see...what's the other guy using? Well, if it's good
enough for them we can certainly use it!"

Do remember that some of those conservative voices are not PHBs.
Ofttimes, they are people who have heard this before, many times, and
have had unpleasant surprises. If you are going to try to sell Ruby, or
Java, or anything, you have to know how the sold-to thinks.

I am a very good Java programmer, and have done Hibernate, Cayenne, JSP,
Servlets, WebObjects, and a bunch of other stuff. Every technology I
have seen in the web app space has had testimonials that were frankly
identical to the testimonials for RoR. I was suspicious.

When James Duncan Davidson mentioned how successful Ruby on Rails has
been, I gave it another look. I have found that my conclusions often
agree with his, and he is very bright and very experienced in many of
the same spaces I am, so if he thinks Ruby is good, it has a good shot
at solving my problems too.

I have not tried Ruby for a serious project, but it looks good from the
small toy projects I have tried.

Would I suggest it for my bread and butter clients for a mission
critical app? Not at my current level of understanding. Would I
suggest it for a testbed or POC? Definitely - we would then know how
well Ruby worked with _our_ systems and _our_ needs. That is how MacOS
X got into our toolset some years back, and how MySql got so popular for
us, and why we built a linux cluster with a few hundred boxes in it
almost a decade ago - they all worked well in the test projects, and we
felt it worth the risk to try something new in return for the benefits
the new thing offered.

In answer to the original question - Ruby is not going to lead to as
many jobs as Java right now. It is still probably worth learning, and
using, as you will then know, not guess, but know where it fits in your
toolbox. When someone interviews you for that next job, which might be
a Java or a .NET, or whatever, job, you can bring up Ruby and
intelligently state the costs, the benefits, the risks, and whether
_you_ think it is a good idea.

If the project fits the Ruby strengths, then it just might be the right
tool.

Scott
 
N

neutralm

Preston said:
I'm wondering what those of you using
Ruby feel are Ruby's chances of taking off. At least to the extent that
you could begin to see it used in places where J2EE is being used
currently. I know this is already happening. But my question is more
with regards to the future. Is something like RoR worth learning in the
context of being able to actually put it to use in the future? I know
I'm asking for conjecture. And that's all I expect. But not being
actively involved in the community, I get no sense as to how much
momentum Ruby has, and thus what the chances of it becoming more
commonly used, are.

Hi Preston,

I think Ruby on Rails is at the same crossroads that Java was 10 years
ago.

Ten years ago, I switched camps and wholeheartedly joined the Java
initiative. Before doing that, I went through the painstaking process
of abandoning the mainframe/midrange technology by going for the C++/VB
one. But in the summer of 1995, I knew I had to jump ship again.

Fifteen years ago, me and some of my fellow developers grew tired and
disgusted with mainframes. Those behemoths were simply too enormous and
too brittle to allow for any reasonable course of developing even
fairly simple applications. So, we've switched to OO platform (first to
Smalltalk, and later on to C++).

But the 'DLL hell' made us equally disgusted. Soon it was time for a
change. After abandoning the mainframe legacy, we've adopted the 'DLL
hell' legacy of Microsoft. Along came Java (remember "the network is
the computer" slogan?) and we jumped right into it, swallowing it hook,
line and sinker, as the saying goes.

Today, 10 years later, we're disappointed (nay, shocked) to see Java
growing into an even bigger behemoth than any mainframe. Needless to
say, some of us are disgusted by the clunkiness of J2EE. Even worse
than that, the clunkiness of the J2EE-aftermarket is actually more
shocking. I've tried countless open-source frameworks that were
supposed to address and cover up J2EE's original lack of vision, but
came away utterly disgusted.

In the process, I've slowly grown absolutely alergic to XML, which I've
embraced enthusiastically at first. Today, I get violently sick
whenever I have to look at any XML-snippet.

For the past 5 years I've been impatiently waiting for something to
come along and point to the way beyond Java, beyond C#. I've even
developed my own frameworks to address the gap.

But the day I saw Rails, I knew that my wait was over. It addresses
elegantly all my grievances, and then some!

Yes, right now there are more naysayers than coolheaded people about
RoR. What I find hilarious is that all the arguments against RoR are
exactly the same as the arguments we were hearing against Java back in
the mid-to-late '90s. And these same objections are now mostly coming
from the Java camp!

Remeber when the corporate technologists were chiming against Java as
being too slow? Can it scale? And so on.

One thing is certain -- Java/J2EE is destined to go the way of the
mainframes. No, these techologies will never go away. But, they are now
being delegated to the legacy status. Read: necessary evil.

RoR community will grow rapidly. Then, once it reaches certain critical
mass, it will specialize in bridging the gap between the legacy
technologies (i.e. J2EE, .NET) and the modern platforms. The same thing
happened with Java in the '90s, and now with .NET (the enormous push
for 'data exchange' via XML and XML Schema, perpetrated by Microsoft).

There is a huge volume of business logic burried inside the J2EE/.NET
code worldwide. This logic will have to be somehow salvaged in order to
be utilized in the modern, agile platforms. RoR will serve in the
future as a bridge, as a 'glue', integrating everything together
(remember when Java/VB were being touted as being one such 'glue'?)

The software development community will (again) split into 2 camps on
the issue of RoR vs. Legacy. This split is inevitable, and it always
occurs, whenever there is a revolutionary breakthrough. It happened
when we abandoned mainframes. It happened when we abandoned the 'DLL
hell'. It is happening now, when we're slowly but surely abandoning the
XML-based legacy systems.

Basically, one camp (arguably always a bigger one) will consist of
those hard-core nuts-and-bolts technologists. These are the people who
delight in going into the engine room, getting down on their knees with
screwdrivers in their hands, and tightening the 'screws' on their
legacy platform of choice. This is what I call the 'How' crowd.

The other camp will consist of developers who are first and foremost
interested in delivering quality products. In other words, they know
they are in the business of selling experiences, not nuts and bolts and
screens and reports and push buttons. This is what I call the 'What'
crowd.

The 'What' crowd is the one that always makes progress. They don't care
too much about polishing the done deal. They only keep pressing for the
ever higher quality.

And this is where RoR gives all of us the best chances.
 
D

David A. Black

Hi --

For the past 5 years I've been impatiently waiting for something to
come along and point to the way beyond Java, beyond C#. I've even
developed my own frameworks to address the gap.

But the day I saw Rails, I knew that my wait was over. It addresses
elegantly all my grievances, and then some!

Let's give a tiny little nod to Ruby too :)


David
 
K

Kirk Haines

Let's give a tiny little nod to Ruby too :)

Or a big nod. I've fed my kids for 3 years with Ruby and website/app work.
The work that I have done with the turnaround times that I give would not
have been possible using either Java or any Perl or Python technologies that
were available over that timespan. 'tis why I made the wholehearted jump to
using Ruby from Perl.

Ruby gets a big hug from me.


Kirk Haines
 
J

James McCarthy

Hell I don't care if anyone else uses Ruby, I like using it so much
that I would be happy to just keep using it until I found something
that I liked even better.

I signed up to the Ruby mailing lists 2 days ago and they are just
jumping, I really think Ruby (and RoR also) are going to make it big.

Even if they don't I'm happy, I like what I got.

ps. I started to learn programming in college with Java, after year
one I decided not to be a programmer it was so bad, then Ruby changed
my mind.


--=20
My Blog: http://27degrees.blogspot.org
 
C

Curt Hibbs

James said:
Hell I don't care if anyone else uses Ruby, I like using it so much
that I would be happy to just keep using it until I found something
that I liked even better.

I signed up to the Ruby mailing lists 2 days ago and they are just
jumping, I really think Ruby (and RoR also) are going to make it big.

Even if they don't I'm happy, I like what I got.

ps. I started to learn programming in college with Java, after year
one I decided not to be a programmer it was so bad, then Ruby changed
my mind.

Good thing you weren't in school when C++ was the language de jour --
you might have needed therapy to recover! ;-)

Curt
 
J

James McCarthy

Good thing you weren't in school when C++ was the language de jour --
you might have needed therapy to recover! ;-)
=20
Curt
c++, what is this strange thing you speak of?
I have vauge memories of somthing called, c on Windows, in Operating
Systems class. I can remember that I had this constant feeling of
wanting to smash the computer.



--=20
My Blog: http://27degrees.blogspot.org
 
M

Martin DeMello

Robert said:
My college does C++ and Java but focuses mainly on .NET stuff. No C at all.

When I was in college, I learnt FORTRAN in CS101 and C (ironically
enough) in a Numerical Methods course.

martin
 
T

Timothy Hunter

Martin said:
When I was in college, I learnt FORTRAN in CS101 and C (ironically
enough) in a Numerical Methods course.

martin

I went to college in 1980. FORTRAN was my first pgmming language,
followed by (gasp) COBOL. This was back in the days when programming
language names were acronyms and had to be spelled in all caps.

With FORTRAN and COBOL mastered, I went on to the big leagues: PL/I,
SNOBOL, 370 BAL.

Oh, the memories...
 

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