Shaded check box?

G

Gregor Kofler

The Natural Philosopher meinte:
that's why I specified font sizes in *pixels*.

One more thing: Specifiying font sizes in pixels is shite, too. And
before you ask why: Google 's full with explanations, and in
c.i.w.a.stylesheets you will be (deservedly) bashed when stating that
you use Verdana with pixel sizes...

Gregor
 
T

The Natural Philosopher

Gregor said:
The Natural Philosopher meinte:



<david>No.</david>


Say, 10px Verdana is easily readable. Then 10px Times is completely
unreadable. Understood?

I didn't specify Times

Understood?

I specified a non serif font family at a pixel size that worked across
all the major platforms and looked pretty similar.

It may not be optimal, I simply stopped when it was close enough on IE,
Firefox and Safari.
 
D

David Mark

I didn't specify Times

Doesn't much matter what you specified.
Understood?

It is understood that you go out of your way to do everything wrong.
I specified a non serif font family at a pixel size that worked across
all the major platforms and looked pretty similar.

And you've been told repeatedly that pixel units are a bad idea for
font sizes.
It may not be optimal, I simply stopped when it was close enough on IE,
Firefox and Safari.

There are so many things wrong with that, I don't know where to
start. Never mind.

[snip]
 
T

The Natural Philosopher

Gregor said:
The Natural Philosopher meinte:


One more thing: Specifiying font sizes in pixels is shite, too. And
before you ask why: Google 's full with explanations, and in
c.i.w.a.stylesheets you will be (deservedly) bashed when stating that
you use Verdana with pixel sizes...

Do you know, this and other usenet groups are full of reasons why
everything is wrong, and remarkably sparse in terms of contributors who
have actually done real HTML/CSS for sites that actually work.

When you investigate most of the 'i know better than you' stuff, it
turns out to have no bearing on the particular problem I am trying to
solve whatsoever.

My whole solution is probably against your religion. Trying to format
pages in totally fixed pixel sizes to look exactly the same irrespective
of the browser type, window size, or settings.

This is completely contrary to the flow model of original HTML. It also
means that anyone looking at it on a e.g. cellphone wont be able to use
it. Guess what, I don't want them to. Neither do I want it used by
people who don't have a mouse, are blind, or have text only browsers.

Its a private database application. The web interface merely is a way to
access it on a desktop machine.

The machines are likely to be one of Windows (IE7) Mac (safari) or Linux
(Firefox).

So, all very interesting I am sure, but what work is in the end what works.
 
D

David Mark

Do you know, this and other usenet groups are full of reasons why
everything is wrong, and remarkably sparse in terms of contributors who
have actually done real HTML/CSS for sites that actually work.

Interesting take on usenet (sic).
When you investigate most of the 'i know better than you' stuff, it
turns out to have no bearing on the particular problem I am trying to
solve whatsoever.

This from someone who has never posted a single useful article in this
group. I imagine your track record in other groups is similar.
My whole solution is probably against your religion. Trying to format
pages in totally fixed pixel sizes to look exactly the same irrespective
of the browser type, window size, or settings.

In other words, you are a complete prat.
This is completely contrary to the flow model of original HTML. It also

Although muddled, this demonstrates at least some understanding of the
silliness of your approach.
means that anyone looking at it on a e.g. cellphone wont be able to use

So your approved users must have at least 800x600 resolution,
maximized browser windows are a requirement and extra browser toolbars
are forbidden.
it. Guess what, I don't want them to. Neither do I want it used by
people who don't have a mouse, are blind, or have text only browsers.

There ought to be laws. Oh wait, there are.
Its a private database application. The web interface merely is a way to
access it on a desktop machine.

Yes, it sounds very exclusive.
The machines are likely to be one of Windows (IE7) Mac (safari) or Linux
(Firefox).

You could say that about virtually any collection of computers.
So, all very interesting I am sure, but what work is in the end what works.

You should be locked up.

[snip]
 
T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

David said:
So your approved users must have at least 800x600 resolution,
maximized browser windows are a requirement and extra browser toolbars
are forbidden.

Because of the pixel-sized fonts, they will also have to use the same
display resolution and the same font resolution for adequate display.


PointedEars
 
G

Gregor Kofler

The Natural Philosopher meinte:
Do you know, this and other usenet groups are full of reasons why
everything is wrong, and remarkably sparse in terms of contributors who
have actually done real HTML/CSS for sites that actually work.

Makes me wonder, why I can make a living developing and authoring
websites and -applications.
When you investigate most of the 'i know better than you' stuff, it
turns out to have no bearing on the particular problem I am trying to
solve whatsoever.

Right, it can only be trying, since your "approach" will never be a
solution.
My whole solution is probably against your religion. Trying to format
pages in totally fixed pixel sizes to look exactly the same irrespective
of the browser type, window size, or settings.

Sure, more tripe. Let me explain that for you:
Web pages have the inherency of looking differently on every client.
Choosing pixels is just a try, but will never guarantee anything.
This is completely contrary to the flow model of original HTML. It also
means that anyone looking at it on a e.g. cellphone wont be able to use
it. Guess what, I don't want them to. Neither do I want it used by
people who don't have a mouse, are blind, or have text only browsers.

Well, I suppose you stick to philosophy then and not web related stuff.
Its a private database application. The web interface merely is a way to
access it on a desktop machine.

You never stated that, instead you declared it a "solution".
The machines are likely to be one of Windows (IE7) Mac (safari) or Linux
(Firefox).

I'm absolutely sure the webpages won't look *exactly* the same.
So, all very interesting I am sure, but what work is in the end what works.

Yes, "em" and "%" suffice 99% of the time.

Gregor
 
D

David Mark

Because of the pixel-sized fonts, they will also have to use the same
display resolution and the same font resolution for adequate display.

Indeed. The "philosopher" has repeatedly indicated his disdain to
small screens; but, of course, these issues apply to displays of all
sizes. I use a very large monitor and most Websites are illegible
without enlarging the font size. Back when I (stupidly) used IE as my
primary browser, I would skip entire sites due to its inability to
scale fonts with sizes specified in pixels. Every time I complained
about this, I heard nonsense like "get a bigger monitor" or "use the
zoom feature." The latter is particularly laughable for anyone who
has ever tried to read a document with horizontal scroll bars.
 
T

The Natural Philosopher

Gregor said:
The Natural Philosopher meinte:

Makes me wonder, why I can make a living developing and authoring
websites and -applications.

the amount of utter crap out there that someone has obviously paid for,
should answer that question.
Right, it can only be trying, since your "approach" will never be a
solution.
It IS a solution, since it patently works and satisfies the customer.
Sure, more tripe. Let me explain that for you:
Web pages have the inherency of looking differently on every client.
Choosing pixels is just a try, but will never guarantee anything.
Ok, thats the crux, and leads to two possible appraoches. Go with the
flow and try and code for every different possible windows size, or say
'however all modern browsers can be nailed down hard to absolute
postioning to a one pixel accuracy, and nail them down that way'

I chose the latter. You are arguing for the former.



Well, I suppose you stick to philosophy then and not web related stuff.

Cant. Much as I'd like to. I have a job to do here.
You never stated that, instead you declared it a "solution".
I said it was 'A' solution. You wont find many browsers that will allow
you to resize or restyle a checkbox at all. I merely pointed out that
you can duplicate the functionality with styling and javascript, and
sidestep the problem altogether Its A solution. Not THE solution.

Whether it suits your religion, is your choice. But don't thrust your
religion down MY throat as being THE solution, when its just *another*
solution.



I'm absolutely sure the webpages won't look *exactly* the same.
Very very close. The font rendering on IE7 is Arial usually I think, and
its more pixellated than the smooth fonts on a MAC, but the boxes and
colours and element positions are the same.
Yes, "em" and "%" suffice 99% of the time.

Not on fixed style pages. If you want a box precisely 300x12 pixels, you
need to say so.

Its all down to the religion thats says 'let the browser decide'

I say I don't want the browser to decide. Different browsers make
different decisions.

I tell the browser exactly what I want, and it does it. If it needs to
add scroll bars to enable it all to be viewed, thats fine too. Thats all
the decision I want it making.

I cant write a manual with elements sliding all over the place so my
screenshots look entirely different from what a user is going to see. I
tried that and when you shrink the windows, it was frankly vile. Now if
someone shrinks a window, nothing changes. Only the scroll bars appear
to show them they aren't seeing the full picture.

I am not 'writing to be compatible with XYZ browser' I am taking three
browsers, and making them present a uniform appearance to a particular
in house application. They are just smart terminals as far as I am
concerned. The fact that they have a lot of inbuilt smarts to format
stuff that isn't nailed down, is not something I want. Its something I
want to avoid.


It happens to be the simplest way to make a browser look like its
actually a custom application running on the desktop machine.


Which is what I want.

If you don't want that, that's fine. I am not telling you that this way
is THE way, Unlike you, I don't have the arrogance and religious
conviction. Its A way. that suits people doing similar, which is what I
felt the OP was after.
 
G

Gregor Kofler

The Natural Philosopher meinte:
Gregor Kofler wrote:

the amount of utter crap out there that someone has obviously paid for,
should answer that question.

If you rate "flexible layout", "lean markup", "good-looking on *all*
contemperorary browsers", "good page rank without SEO", "easy
maintainability" as utter crap, then I'm producing that.
Ok, thats the crux, and leads to two possible appraoches. Go with the
flow and try and code for every different possible windows size, or say
'however all modern browsers can be nailed down hard to absolute
postioning to a one pixel accuracy, and nail them down that way'

I chose the latter. You are arguing for the former.

So far, I've *never* needed to "code for different possible window
sizes". (How could I, since I don't know anything about client's window
sizes.)
I said it was 'A' solution. You wont find many browsers that will allow
you to resize or restyle a checkbox at all. I merely pointed out that
you can duplicate the functionality with styling and javascript, and
sidestep the problem altogether Its A solution. Not THE solution.

Right. But it's a crap solution.
You rate "Verdana" + "pixels" as a (presumably good) solution.
(a) Verdana as font has its (serious) problems - no need to repeat that
here.
(b) Pixel for font-size has its (serious) problems - no need to repeat
that here.
You jump to the conclusion that (a) + (b) is a perfectly viable solution
and finish it off with "Its a private database application"...
Very very close. The font rendering on IE7 is Arial usually I think, and
its more pixellated than the smooth fonts on a MAC, but the boxes and
colours and element positions are the same.

Very very close is easy. No need for "pixels" then. Form elements - all
the same?
Not on fixed style pages. If you want a box precisely 300x12 pixels, you
need to say so.

You hardly ever need fixed style pages. But since you declared, that you
just want to produce webpages for a chosen circle of visitors, your
statements on webpage design can be discounted.
Its all down to the religion thats says 'let the browser decide'

No. It's the religion that says "I recommend, but I don't force".
I say I don't want the browser to decide. Different browsers make
different decisions.

Hardly, if you know proper authoring. And it has *nothing* to do with
pixel-sizes.
I cant write a manual with elements sliding all over the place so my
screenshots look entirely different from what a user is going to see. I
tried that and when you shrink the windows, it was frankly vile. Now if
someone shrinks a window, nothing changes. Only the scroll bars appear
to show them they aren't seeing the full picture.

That has what to do with "pixels"?
I am not 'writing to be compatible with XYZ browser' I am taking three
browsers, and making them present a uniform appearance to a particular
in house application. They are just smart terminals as far as I am
concerned. The fact that they have a lot of inbuilt smarts to format
stuff that isn't nailed down, is not something I want. Its something I
want to avoid.

Well, from what I perceive we are most of time talking about websites on
the *world-wide* web.
It happens to be the simplest way to make a browser look like its
actually a custom application running on the desktop machine.


Which is what I want.

Whatever. But don't offer your particular "approach" as "solution" when
there are better (and widely recommended) alternatives available.
which is what I
felt the OP was after.

Then I'm just not enlightened as you, since the OP never came back to
this thread. He was talking about "checkboxes", then you came up with
Verdana and pixel-sizes...

Gregor
 
D

David Mark

[snip]
It happens to be the simplest way to make a browser look like its
actually a custom application running on the desktop machine.

That would make for quite a poor "custom application."
Which is what I want.

It isn't about what you want.

[snip]
 
J

Jorge

Ok, thats the crux, and leads to two possible appraoches. Go with the
flow and try and code for every different possible windows size, or say
'however all modern browsers can be nailed down hard to absolute
postioning to a one pixel accuracy, and nail them down that way'

I chose the latter. You are arguing for the former.

But you should position and size the elements using em units, so that
when/if the user hits zoom +/-, everything zooms in/out in proportion.
Even the images. The div's heights and widths and lefts and tops, etc.

Safari (the nightly nuild) does (internally) translate px units
proportionally so that zooming works fine always anyway, and makes it
unnecessary, but other browsers do not.
 
T

The Natural Philosopher

Gregor said:
Then I'm just not enlightened as you, since the OP never came back to
this thread. He was talking about "checkboxes", then you came up with
Verdana and pixel-sizes...

I merely copied a css style sheet, that happened to have them in.

They had no bearing on use of the borders and shading also in there to
make a styled box

That was a straw man you raised.

Presumably to attack the whole idea of using javascript/CSS styled check
boxes, you felt in need of pissing on someone.
 
G

Gregor Kofler

The Natural Philosopher meinte:
Presumably to attack the whole idea of using javascript/CSS styled check
boxes, you felt in need of pissing on someone.

Tsk tsk. In this whole thread I was never referring to your checkbox
advice. Anyway, you'd be a target hard to miss...

Gregor
 
T

The Natural Philosopher

Jorge said:
But you should position and size the elements using em units, so that
when/if the user hits zoom +/-, everything zooms in/out in proportion.

why would they want to do that?

I don't have a zoom feature on the books I read.

I just move them closer and put on stronger glasses, That means the text
doesn't run off the page...
Even the images. The div's heights and widths and lefts and tops, etc.

Doe you car dashboard have a zoom feature?

Do you walk around te world with variable focal length binoculars
strapped to your head?

Safari (the nightly nuild) does (internally) translate px units
proportionally so that zooming works fine always anyway, and makes it
unnecessary, but other browsers do not.

So what?

If the page is laid out well in sensible fonts, you dont need to resize it.

 
T

The Natural Philosopher

Gregor said:
The Natural Philosopher meinte:


Tsk tsk. In this whole thread I was never referring to your checkbox
advice. Anyway, you'd be a target hard to miss...

Gregor
well there you go, I hope it made you feel better.
 
R

RobG

Jorge wrote: [...]
But you should position and size the elements using em units, so that
when/if the user hits zoom +/-, everything zooms in/out in proportion.

why would they want to do that?

Because they want to see the text in a size that they can read. They
can also set the default font size on their browser to a larger size
than you expect so all fonts are scaled larger.

I don't have a zoom feature on the books I read.

The fact that you don't doesn't mean others don't. There is a good
market in books with larger fonts for those with impaired vision and
in devices for magnifying the text.


I just move them closer and put on stronger glasses,

Ah, so you *do* have a need to view fonts at a larger size than
whatever they are published in?

That means the text
doesn't run off the page...

Because it zooms the pager borders too. Pity on-screen zooming
doesn't increase the size of my monitor...

Doe you car dashboard have a zoom feature?

The same one you use for books, the device is called a pair of
spectacles. Apparently you alreay have some.

Do you walk around te world with variable focal length binoculars
strapped to your head?

Many do, they're called bi-focal glasses. An alternative is to have 2
sets - some for distant objects, some for close objects.

So what?

If the page is laid out well in sensible fonts, you dont need to resize it.

So you think that if a font isn't readable, the layout isn't
sensible? So if anyone has difficulty reading any of your pages, they
layout isn't sensible, which is what you're being told.

You are being given advice on what *is* sensible, why not take it?
 
S

SAM

Le 12/15/08 1:23 AM, The Natural Philosopher a écrit :
why would they want to do that?

I don't have a zoom feature on the books I read.

No, but you can put it more or less close.
Not so easy with a monitor that has to be on the other side of keybord
which one has to be far enough to tape.
I just move them closer and put on stronger glasses, That means the text
doesn't run off the page...

N'importe quoi !
If the page is laid out well in sensible fonts, you dont need to resize it.

It is what *you* think !

It is not what *I* think.

Do you produce your pages for you or for your customers/users ?
Why do you want absolutely to deny them this opportunity that does not
cost you anything?


Moi, je m'en fous, je n'aurai pas à voir la page.
Et, même si, je sais comment faire, par simple touches clavier, zoomer
ou le brouteur ou l'écran.
 
J

Jorge

why would they want to do that?

I don't have a zoom feature on the books I read.

I just move them closer and put on stronger glasses, That means the text
doesn't run off the page...


Doe you car dashboard have a zoom feature?

Do you walk around te world with variable focal length binoculars
strapped to your head?


So what?

If the page is laid out well in sensible fonts, you dont need to resize it.

Anyway, what harm does it make to type "em" instead of "px" ?

See the difference : this one zooms in/out well:

<http://jorgechamorro.com/cljs/027/index.html>

And this one doesn't:

<http://jorgechamorro.com/cljs/027/index2.html>

See the difference ?
Just use "em" units instead of "px". It's easy, it's cheap, so why
not ?
 

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