subroutine stack and C machine model

H

Hektor Rottweiler

[...] by not doing your homework.

You keep stating this without any rationale for it. Collegial people
tend to assume that their peers are both intelligent *and* informed,
just as collegial people tend not to butt into conversations unless
they really *are* informed. So please, tell me what homework I haven't
done. To save you some effort, I'll cover what I believe to be
relevant to your claims of "personal destruction":

1) I've read the majority of your posts on comp.lang.c and
comp.programming as far back as Google Groups history goes.
2) I've been a regular reader of these newsgroups (clc, clcm,
comp.programming, etc...) for many years, and I'm familiar with the
frequent participants.
3) I've kept up-to-date on Schildt's writings enough to avoid looking
like an ass when I talk about them.

Please try to make a distinction between "not doing your homework" and
"I don't agree with your conclusions", because it seems very much like
you're using the former to justify the latter. I try to treat everyone
here with some modicum of respect, and I rather expect the same in
return. Otherwise things degenerate into petty and childish arguments.

You do show more surface respect for others starting with the care you
take in writing (a typically female trait in our society, and if
that's on some construction a "sexist" argument then, come, wrack.)

However, you undercut this respect by enabling the worst kind of
perverted ethics and poor treatment of others.

You see, the ethical system of this and many other newsgroups accepts
that "things" and reified abstractions have rights but people,
especially ordinary corporate slaveys of the type usually found here,
have somehow signed away all rights...perhaps because most people here
are technically thieves insofar as they post using corporate networks
on work time.

Thus you are not only regarded as technically in error for calling an
8-bit value ASCII, you've also offended against the abstraction. Thus,
RH and "Harlan" pretend in the Capitaine Reynaud register ("shocked,
shocked, that gambling is allowed") that I've sock puppeted although
their big lies are held harmless against criticism.

You nonetheless treat them seriously as deserving of rights of
fairness which they do not themselves extend to others, and this
enables their abuse of others.

You call the victims "petty and childish" when the victims fight back,
and this enables the system to continue spreading disinformation about
C: mostly, that it is a sensible language with a unitary set of rules.
But more perniciously, the system makes unqualified and deficient
people look like authorities in their fields and these people have no
other way to do so.

And, the system perverts ethics because it pretends that harm to
artifacts (computers) and abstract, constructed ideas is worse than
harming people and their hard-earned reputations. The posters here
have grown up in dysfunctional, and, I believe, maternally
overdominated families and for this reason have no respect for people
as such.
 
H

Hektor Rottweiler

Thanks. Looks likespinoza1111may well be getting it too.

No, you're wrong. A careful writer would not call a text "clear" if he
thought it full of errors.
 
H

Hektor Rottweiler

You may want to check the definition again, as I'm rather sure that's not in
the OED.
Good to see that you now realize that statements that care understood can
either be true or false, contradicting what you said above.

Wow, you're really out to lunch.

I don't care about "statements". Those are reified chunks of a formal
language useless for communication or mentoring. Herbie was writing in
a natural language in which no "statement" stands alone: CTCR is a
TEXT and not a set of statements: not even an ordered set of
statements.

The theme of the text is as follows.

"Look, you huddled masses working on Microsoft computers whose
employers are so stupid that they make you use C. I know you hate K &
R because the underlying message of most computer science/academic
books is 'oh ye who did not go to Princeton nor work at Bell Labs, ye
are dogs and sons of pigs, and I know more than thee'".

[This is in my experience the message that people get from many comp
sci books, when they struggled to get an inferior degree in our
society because their parents were minorities or dysfunctional
whites.]

"Here is how it actually works on the beige box in front of ye. I give
ye essence I give ye accident and from this I trust thee to grok the
essence. Here be the reason why: it were ordinary people like ye who
discovered all this in the 1950s, only to have it taken from them by
universities."

A book in Herbie's genre is, whether Herb knows it or not, critical of
corporate brutalization because it restores a pathway to knowledge
that is deliberately obscured by eminent universities.

Real computer science was discovered by accident and in a rule-
violating way not by scientists, but by clerks considered lowlife who
just before the advent of computers were called "computers".

These clerks, once they became the first programmers, gradually
discovered how to apply Turing even if they didn't know of his result:
yet as David Alan Grier describes in "When Computers Were Human", they
were never or only belatedly recognized, and in many cases many of
them, who'd joined left-wing organizations in the 1930s, were
persecuted by McCarthy in the 1950s.

By assaulting Herb for using a Microsoft-based language ("8 bit
ASCII") which is in all cases translatable, RH et al. show how
knowledge is taken from its creators and becomes
"academic"...ironically by people who themselves have no academic
chops, because (as brilliantly portrayed in James Cameron's movie The
Titanic) class divides are not maintained in a genteel fashion.

Instead, people are chained in ships and left to drown, whether on a
fictionalizd Titanic or the Middle Passage for real. And on the
Internet, reputations made by mere hard work are trashed, with the
victims unable for the most part to so much as retain counsel.
 
H

Hektor Rottweiler

This is absurd. It was a mistake to use 7 bits for ASCII, made at a
time when engineers wanted to save bits at any price, including making
it difficult and slow to pack and unpack data in prime number widths.
It was an era in which hardware engineers hated software engineers,
thinking them to be dispensable, bearded and/or effeminate beatniks
and hippies; at Motorola, the development of the first cell phone was
considerably delayed by the hardware engineers' bullying and the
passive-aggressive responses of the software designers in my (limited
but first-hand) experience.

To want to preserve the mistake as a shibboleth, an idiom, or a manner
of speaking merely shows your loyalty to the wrong way of doing
things.




Don't go there, Julienne, and stop enabling this person.  He will
continue, I predict, to insist on his silly idioms.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Please note: all of the posts labeled Hektor Rottweiler are made by
me, Edward G. Nilges, who ordinarily posts under spinoza1111. I logged
onto Google mistakenly using an account I'd planned to use for sock
puppetry but have not until now so used.

Hektor Rottweiler was a nom de plume of Theodore Adorno who published
things under this name.

I will now relogin under my usual handle and confirm that I was Hektor.
 
S

spinoza1111

You may want to check the definition again, as I'm rather sure that's not in
the OED.
Good to see that you now realize that statements that care understood can
either be true or false, contradicting what you said above.

Wow, you're really out to lunch.

I don't care about "statements". Those are reified chunks of a formal
language useless for communication or mentoring. Herbie was writing in
a natural language in which no "statement" stands alone: CTCR is a
TEXT and not a set of statements: not even an ordered set of
statements.

The theme of the text is as follows.

"Look, you huddled masses working on Microsoft computers whose
employers are so stupid that they make you use C. I know you hate K &
R because the underlying message of most computer science/academic
books is 'oh ye who did not go to Princeton nor work at Bell Labs, ye
are dogs and sons of pigs, and I know more than thee'".

[This is in my experience the message that people get from many comp
sci books, when they struggled to get an inferior degree in our
society because their parents were minorities or dysfunctional
whites.]

"Here is how it actually works on the beige box in front of ye. I give
ye essence I give ye accident and from this I trust thee to grok the
essence. Here be the reason why: it were ordinary people like ye who
discovered all this in the 1950s, only to have it taken from them by
universities."

A book in Herbie's genre is, whether Herb knows it or not, critical of
corporate brutalization because it restores a pathway to knowledge
that is deliberately obscured by eminent universities.

Real computer science was discovered by accident and in a rule-
violating way not by scientists, but by clerks considered lowlife who
just before the advent of computers were called "computers".

These clerks, once they became the first programmers, gradually
discovered how to apply Turing even if they didn't know of his result:
yet as David Alan Grier describes in "When Computers Were Human", they
were never or only belatedly recognized, and in many cases many of
them, who'd joined left-wing organizations in the 1930s, were
persecuted by McCarthy in the 1950s.

By assaulting Herb for using a Microsoft-based language ("8 bit
ASCII") which is in all cases translatable, RH et al. show how
knowledge is taken from its creators and becomes
"academic"...ironically by people who themselves have no academic
chops, because (as brilliantly portrayed in James Cameron's movie The
Titanic) class divides are not maintained in a genteel fashion.

Instead, people are chained in ships and left to drown, whether on a
fictionalizd Titanic or the Middle Passage for real. And on the
Internet, reputations made by mere hard work are trashed, with the
victims unable for the most part to so much as retain counsel.


Dennis- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This guy is me, spinoza1111. Pretty smart, isn't he.
 
S

Seebs

Wow, that's an extremely subtle name choice.
Please note: all of the posts labeled Hektor Rottweiler are made by
me, Edward G. Nilges, who ordinarily posts under spinoza1111. I logged
onto Google mistakenly using an account I'd planned to use for sock
puppetry but have not until now so used.

It's wonderful that you're so forthcoming about your sleaze, but has
it ever occurred to you to try not using socks for such purposes?

FWIW, unless you count April Fools jokes or a Halloween party on a
forum I hang out on sometimes, I don't think I've used socks on Usenet.
Like, ever. I think I tried it as an experiment once on a Citadel
modem-based BBS in the early 90s, just registering under another name
and posting for a while to see whether people noticed, then lost interest.

It really does seem like maybe the right thing to do would be to just post
under your own name instead of using socks. If you need socks to win
arguments, you are probably going to lose anyway.

-s
 
S

Seebs

No, you're wrong. A careful writer would not call a text "clear" if he
thought it full of errors.

You keep saying this, but:

* The dictionary disagrees with you.
* So does the dictionary you said agreed with you.
* So does every other dictionary we've yet been able to find.

Your fundamental problem, explained repeatedly, is that you're apparently
unaware that understanding a statement has to do with knowledge *about
the statement*.

Have you ever heard of a lie? A lie is a statement which is known to be
untrue, right? (Pardon the imprecision, but really, we don't need to be
much more precise.)

But HOW do we know the statement is untrue? How can we possibly make a
determination that a statement is untrue? To do that, we'd have to know
what the statement means. Do you know what the word in English is for
"know what something means"?

understand
1. to perceive the meaning of; grasp the idea of; comprehend:
(to understand Spanish; I didn't understand your question.)

I just grabbed the first result off dictionary.com -- it's not an ideal
dictionary, but it should do. Note that this doesn't have anything to
do with the *truth* of a statement -- just with what it *means*.

To call a statement a "lie", *you have to understand it*. If you don't
understand it, you can't say whether what it means is true or not, because
you do not "perceive the meaning of" the statement.

All anyone has said is that it is often easy to perceive the meaning of
the things Schildt says -- not that it's easy to go from what he says to
an accurate description of C. In fact, the latter turns out to be
surprisingly hard.

-s
 
S

spinoza1111

No, you're wrong. A careful writer would not call a text "clear" if he
thought it full of errors.








- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I might as well rate each of dear Hektor's posts with a five now that
I am back under my usual name.
 
S

spinoza1111

Wow, that's an extremely subtle name choice.


It's wonderful that you're so forthcoming about your sleaze, but has
it ever occurred to you to try not using socks for such purposes?

A trick of language only makes pranks seem wrong. In English, the
fundamental way of naming wrong doing is unrelated to harm to others.

You've harmed Schildt. Yet now you're presuming to lecture me on
morality.

Don't you dare.
FWIW, unless you count April Fools jokes or a Halloween party on a
forum I hang out on sometimes, I don't think I've used socks on Usenet.
Like, ever.  I think I tried it as an experiment once on a Citadel
modem-based BBS in the early 90s, just registering under another name
and posting for a while to see whether people noticed, then lost interest..

It really does seem like maybe the right thing to do would be to just post
under your own name instead of using socks.  If you need socks to win
arguments, you are probably going to lose anyway.

The use of Hektor Rottweiler was an accident. But I might use a
deliberate sock puppet in this discussion if you, RH, et al. continue
your dishonest and harmful behavior, in self-defense.

Don't worry, I won't impersonate Brian Kernighan.
 
S

spinoza1111

I might as well rate each of dear Hektor's posts with a five now that
I am back under my usual name.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And no, I won't log back on as Hektor and give myself five stars,
although I regard ratings as intrinsically barbaric and fair game for
the gamester. I have given Kenny a lot of high ratings, not because he
sometimes takes my side but because he's obviously an intelligent and
funny guy with a life.
 
C

Colonel Harlan Sanders

Thus you are not only regarded as technically in error for calling an
8-bit value ASCII, you've also offended against the abstraction.

No one charged you with "offending against the abstraction" No one
knows or cares what that is supposed to mean, except you.
You've made an error of fact, but are trying to pretend pointing that
out is part of some conspiracy/cult/conspiracy du jour.
Thus,
RH and "Harlan" pretend in the Capitaine Reynaud register ("shocked,
shocked, that gambling is allowed") that I've sock puppeted although
their big lies are held harmless against criticism.

1) "Pretend" that you've sock puppeted?
You admitted (even you could hardly deny the fact) and now you're
doing it again, idiot.

2) "Their big lies"? WTF. If I've told even one small lie, cite it.
 
D

Dennis \(Icarus\)

The use of Hektor Rottweiler was an accident. But I might use a
deliberate sock puppet in this discussion if you, RH, et al. continue
your dishonest and harmful behavior, in self-defense.

Don't worry, I won't impersonate Brian Kernighan.

No worries - you couldn't.

Dennis
 
D

Dennis \(Icarus\)

Walter Banks said:
One of the more successful process control computers had a
13 bit word.

Two ascii characters fit nicely in the 14 bit word of some of
Microchip's mid range pic's.



Clearly your experience is limited when sending information.

Evidently so - when the company I worked for acquired a Canadian firm, we
received a data tape from them containing data in 6-bit characters.
The other programmers I was working with couldn't figure out why the data
was junk when read on the 8-bit IBM mainframe.
I wrote a program in COBOL to extract the 6-bit characters, then transform
them into EBCDIC.

Dennis
 
D

Dennis \(Icarus\)

Hektor Rottweiler said:
No, you're wrong. A careful writer would not call a text "clear" if he
thought it full of errors.

Then the careful writer should not publish it until the errors are
corrected.

Are you going back to your earlier position that it is not possible to
understand a false statement in the real world?

If you don't understand a statement/text/sentence/paragraph/etc, how can you
decide whether it's true, accurate, etc?

Dennid

Dennis
 
D

Dennis \(Icarus\)

Hektor Rottweiler said:
Wow, you're really out to lunch.

Nope, though I will be having breakfast shortly.
I don't care about "statements". Those are reified chunks of a formal
language useless for communication or mentoring. Herbie was writing in
a natural language in which no "statement" stands alone: CTCR is a
TEXT and not a set of statements: not even an ordered set of
statements.

Start here. Pay particular attention to item 1.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/statement

Dennis
 
D

Dik T. Winter

> This is idiotic. Although the original ASCII was a seven bit code, it
> is universally used in an 8 bit code or a 16 bit code for the very
> good reason that no competent computer architect would make a word
> size into a prime number, you moron.

Then there must have been some incompetent computer architects. But not
being a prime number is not sufficient to use universally a 8 bit code or
a 16 bit code...
 
D

Dik T. Winter

> perhaps because most people here
> are technically thieves insofar as they post using corporate networks
> on work time.

In that case in your opinion I would technically be a thief. However, to
be a thief it is necessary that you do not have permission to do that, and
so I am not a thief. (It is part of our labour conditions here that you
are allowed to use the corporate network also for private purposes, and
moreover there is no fixed work time. I do also work from home.)
 
S

spinoza1111

Then the careful writer should not publish it until the errors are
corrected.

But Seebach was the careless writer, and his carelessness, unlike any
carelessness on Schildt's part, caused provable harm to a person.
Seebach labels as errors matters of taste and style. For example,
Seebach claims that the use of upper case on an obviously case-
insensitive file system is an error, and it's not.
Are you going back to your earlier position that it is not possible to
understand a false statement in the real world?

Yes, because understanding is knowledge, and knowledge is justifiable
true belief. I would add that knowledge-of-negatives (such as knowing
that a construct which works on a given platform is not going to work
on another platform because it is "undefined under the standard") is
real knowledge only if you're a Platonist as regards the philosophy of
mathematics.

In the traditional account of philosophy of mathematics, there are
three main schools. Logicism derives from Plato by way of Bertrand
Russell's metaphysical belief that names (such as the "reigning King
of France in 1920") have a referent in all cases, with the "idea" or
"concept" of a Bourbon descendant who is not a pretender substituting
for the real person.

Formalism derives from Hilbert's notion that math is "just" a
meaningless game like Chess or Go, played with symbols.

Constructivism, to which Dijkstra seems heir, is the vastly more
interesting notion that (1) one should not reason from the axiom of
excluded middle (p->(p&~p) therefore ~p) and (2) mathematical entities
(such as computer programs or programming languages) only exist
insofar as they can be sensibly constructed.

In constructivism aka intuitionism, negative knowledge (x is
undefined) is derivative and a verbal translation of positive
knowledge. For example, intuitionism replaces "the square root of -1
is undefined" with a calculus of complex numbers (as does
nonphilosophical math).

Unfortunately, math classes are taught by teachers generally ignorant
about the philosophy of mathematics with the result that a vulgar
Platonism reigns. Thus in the second year of high school there's no
such thing as a complex number, but for the uni math major there is.

This causes Seebach and Heathfield to solemnly and with no little
silliness to say absurd, pernicious and stupid things about C and far
worse, about people. If a C compiler allows the programmer to code
#include <stdio.H> then considered the only sensible way, as human
praxis, C allows this in this instance. If at least one C compiler
evaluates binary ops from left to right in all cases, then C allows
this.

C as a human language follows the same rules as English does in modern
linguistics. Because it was designed before we knew what we were
doing, standardizing C is pissing in the wind.

Most people say, when knocking on a door and asked "who the hell is
it?", "it's me". This is technically a solecism since when you use
"is" and similar verbs of being as opposed to action, you are equating
the subject with the noun phrase on the right hand side of the verb,
therefore the NP on the RHS is a subject, and when it is a pronoun,
must be "I". You're supposed to say "It is I" like some sort of
fruitcake, and this is shown clearly when you add material to the bald
statement: "it is me who knocks on your goddamn door" sounds wrong
whereas "it is I who knock upon your daughter's door" is formally
correct in some grammars (note that the verb must agree with its real
subject, and note that this oddity is less about how to say English
gude and more about the fact that a formal grammar of English is
impossible).

In modern linguistics, since native English speakers who are
reasonably well-educated say "it is me", or "it's me", or "it's me,
goddamnit", the grammar must be revised to accept this.

This means that if the C89 and C99 standards team had no remit to
create a sensible C, and apparently they did not, then at least they
could have done a decent job of describing actual C. This would have
entailed defining named dialects of the language, such as one in which
file identifiers were case insensitive.

But as it is, to say of perfectly sensible constructs and programmer
expectations that they are undefined is like a tedious traditional
linguist telling people to say "it is I". And, the scholastic silly
Standard seems to have only created confusion and harmed reputations.
Most real C programmers are only concerned with what works in their
compiler and OS.
If you don't understand a statement/text/sentence/paragraph/etc, how can you
decide whether it's true, accurate, etc?

If it purports to be a biography of the reigning king of France you do
not in fact know whether it's "really" a novel or a work of "virtual"
history. You have to know the "genre". But Seebach knew the "genre"
and claimed that Herb was clear, which in non-fiction means that he
was understandable, which means he gives knowledge (justified true
belief). All Seebach needed to do was write "Herb writes with an only
apparent clarity" but he did not. The sloppiness infects C: The
Complete Nonsense thoroughly which means it was the pot calling the
kettle black: the use of upper case file identifiers was not an error,
ASCII codes are on most systems in 8 bit units, and most systems use
twos-complement.
 
S

spinoza1111

How did the 24 bit word length make the compiler unnecessarily
more complex? I have written a compilers for a 24 bit processor
and and a number of non powers of two processors. In my experience
word length was not a significant factor.

Object code generation wasn't fun.
 
S

spinoza1111

No one charged you with "offending against the abstraction" No one
knows or cares what that is supposed to mean, except you.
You've made an error of fact, but are trying to pretend pointing that
out is part of some conspiracy/cult/conspiracy du jour.


1) "Pretend" that you've sock puppeted?
You admitted (even you could hardly deny the fact) and now you're
doing it again, idiot.

2) "Their big lies"? WTF. If I've told even one small lie, cite it.

Your dishonesty is more global. For example, it was both dishonest and
stupid for you to pretend to understand the Oxford English Dictionary,
since you shat out all definitions of "clear" without even
understanding that we're talking about a text, not water or beer.

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining
Don't use a dictionary without proper training.
You're a redneck with broadband, with access to texts
Which you paw like the ape in the jungle who's found someone's specs.
Chattering his nonsense, he turns 'em o'er
Wondering what the devil they might be for,
Likewise you download things you don't understand
And mindlessly paste them, that's your plan
And gibber and prance in an ape's apish glee
Over the learned which you hate and the light, which you flee.
For the last time, you fool, you dolt, you ape, you clown,
If a text is clear, when the reader puts it down,
He's learned something new. But this is much ado, for you,
About nothing much of anything, for I'm pissing in the wind:
You've never had the experience of which I speak
And this is why my reasoning makes you shriek.
So adios Harlan, you're Kentucky Fried shitcanned:
You've been shown the light, oh thou brain of sand.
 

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