testing web page compatibility with older browsers

[Bergamot]

I learned my lesson. When I do a web page I change my screen to at
least 1024x so that I can see how it will look to others who might not
have the newer monitors.

What does the "newness" of the monitor have to do with anything? Screen
size is irrelevant. Browser window size, or more specifically viewport
size, is what matters.

 

[richard]

Why don't you just change the size of your browser window?

I used to think the same thing. Well gee I can have my screen one
resolution and the browser another. Nope. Don't work that way.
The application resolution is based entirely on the system. I know
this because other applications change accordingly as do the icons on
the desktop.

Yeah it would be nice and handy if we could do that.
acehtml has a built in viewport changer but all it does is base the
"page" on that size. Your actually viewing the system resolution, not
the editor.

 

[richard]

Why? FF2 ended support last year?

The version of 3 I had was having problems.
During the process of a file download, if any open page refreshed or
changed for any reason, the downloading file would be tricked into
thinking the file had completed downloading.

 

[rf]

I used to think the same thing. Well gee I can have my screen one
resolution and the browser another. Nope. Don't work that way.
The application resolution is based entirely on the system. I know
this because other applications change accordingly as do the icons on
the desktop.

Yeah it would be nice and handy if we could do that.
acehtml has a built in viewport changer but all it does is base the
"page" on that size. Your actually viewing the system resolution, not
the editor.

What are you talking about?

If you resize your browser window to 800x600 pixels it's going to use
800x600 pixels no matter what your screen dimensions are. And the 100x100
pixel image on the web page will still be 100x100 pixles and the 16 pixel
high text is still going to be 16 pixels high. The only thing that will
change is the layout of the images and text, which is exactly what you are
testing.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

I used to think the same thing. Well gee I can have my screen one
resolution and the browser another. Nope. Don't work that way.

You are confusing monitor resolution and browser window size. They are
not related as far as designing web pages is concerned.

The application resolution is based entirely on the system. I know
this because other applications change accordingly as do the icons on
the desktop.

Well, duh! If you change your monitor's resolution from, say, 1024x768
to 800x600, *of course* all those icons and things are going to look
larger. *To you*. Not to me when I view your web page. You can't tell
what my resolution - or browser window size - is.

I know an old half-blind lady who has a huge 4:3 CRT .. 22" at least,
maybe 24". It is set at 800x600, and she sits real close. I can read it
from the next room.

If either she or I (with my 1680x1050 LCD) are viewing your page and
press Ctrl-Plus a couple of times, your text is still going to break out
of your fixed sized boxes.

Yeah it would be nice and handy if we could do that. acehtml has a
built in viewport changer but all it does is base the "page" on that
size. Your actually viewing the system resolution,

Well, duh!

not the editor.

Doesn't matter what your editor is; does matter what my browser window
size is. And I am not sitting in front of _your_ monitor.

 

[C A Upsdell]

If you resize your browser window to 800x600 pixels it's going to use
800x600 pixels no matter what your screen dimensions are. And the 100x100
pixel image on the web page will still be 100x100 pixles and the 16 pixel
high text is still going to be 16 pixels high. The only thing that will
change is the layout of the images and text, which is exactly what you are
testing.

One consideration when checking a site using a small browser window is
that the physical size of the window will likely not match what a user
with a low resolution monitor would have. Text on a lower resolution
monitor will likely be formed from characters which have fewer pixels.
E.g., instead of text being 16 pixels high, text on a lower resolution
monitor might be (say) 12 pixels high. For this reason, if you do
testing with a small browser window, you should also reduce the font
size proportionately.

 

[Chaddy2222]

You are confusing monitor resolution and browser window size. They are
not related as far as designing web pages is concerned.


Well, duh!  If you change your monitor's resolution from, say, 1024x768
to 800x600, *of course* all those icons and things are going to look
larger. *To you*. Not to me when I view your web page. You can't tell
what my resolution - or browser window size - is.

I know an old half-blind lady who has a huge 4:3 CRT .. 22" at least,
maybe 24". It is set at 800x600, and she sits real close. I can read it
from the next room.

If either she or I (with my 1680x1050 LCD) are viewing your page and
press Ctrl-Plus a couple of times, your text is still going to break out
of your fixed sized boxes.


Well, duh!


Doesn't matter what your editor is; does matter what my browser window
size is. And I am not sitting in front of _your_ monitor.

BTS, face it, some people are just cluless and refuse to listen,
nothing you or I can do about it.

 

[rf]

One consideration when checking a site using a small browser window is
that the physical size of the window will likely not match what a user
with a low resolution monitor would have. Text on a lower resolution
monitor will likely be formed from characters which have fewer pixels.
E.g., instead of text being 16 pixels high, text on a lower resolution
monitor might be (say) 12 pixels high.

No, it won't. Not unless the user of that lower resolution monitor has
changed their operating system parameters, and these parameters are
reasonably well hidden. The default font in my browsers is 16 pixels,
regardless of what my screen dimensions are. Applications (including
browsers) do not and should not change their font size depending on the size
of the physical screen be that size in pixels, inches or feet. In fact, it's
quite a task to actually get the physical dimensions of the screen,
especially if there is more than one of them.

I have three screens comprising my desktop. I can set one of them to, say,
800x600 and leave the others at 1280x1024. I can then look at a browser and
actually have said browser displayed on two screens, with individual
characters displaying half on one screen and half on the other. Those
characters are 16 pixels high on both screens.

http://barefile.com.au/test/b.jpg (100K)

For this reason, if you do
testing with a small browser window, you should also reduce the font
size proportionately.

Nope. Not at all.

You *should* however test a page by changing the font size, both down and,
more importantly, up to check what will happen when your viewer changes
their font size. Nothing to do with screen "resolution" though.

 

[Bergamot]

Text on a lower resolution
monitor will likely be formed from characters which have fewer pixels.
E.g., instead of text being 16 pixels high, text on a lower resolution
monitor might be (say) 12 pixels high.

Huh? 16px does not become 12px just because your screen resolution
changed. The *size* of the pixels can change with screen resolution, but
16px is 16px.

For this reason, if you do
testing with a small browser window, you should also reduce the font
size proportionately.

No, you don't. My screen size is 1600px wide, but my normal browser
window is half that. By your reasoning I should reduce my default text
size just because I use a narrower window. That's ludicrous.

 

[C A Upsdell]

One consideration when checking a site using a small browser window is
that the physical size of the window will likely not match what a user
with a low resolution monitor would have. Text on a lower resolution
monitor will likely be formed from characters which have fewer pixels.
E.g., instead of text being 16 pixels high, text on a lower resolution
monitor might be (say) 12 pixels high.

No, it won't. Not unless the user of that lower resolution monitor has
changed their operating system parameters, and these parameters are
reasonably well hidden. The default font in my browsers is 16 pixels,
regardless of what my screen dimensions are. Applications (including
browsers) do not and should not change their font size depending on the size
of the physical screen be that size in pixels, inches or feet. In fact, it's
quite a task to actually get the physical dimensions of the screen,
especially if there is more than one of them.

If you have a font which is 16px high, with (say) a 1280x1024 17"
monitor, characters will be about 0.16" high. If you set a 800x600
browser window, without changing the font size, in order to emulate
someone who has a 800x600 monitor, characters will still be about 0.16"
high. But this does not properly emulate someone who has (say) a
800x600 15" monitor: if they have the same visual acuity as you do, they
will also want a font which is about 0.16" high on *their* monitor,
which will mean a font which is closer to 11px in height. To truly
emulate someone who has such a 800x600 15" monitor, you should therefore
not only reduce the browser window size to 800x600, but also reduce the
font size from 16px to 11px.

 

[C A Upsdell]

Huh? 16px does not become 12px just because your screen resolution
changed. The *size* of the pixels can change with screen resolution, but
16px is 16px.


No, you don't. My screen size is 1600px wide, but my normal browser
window is half that. By your reasoning I should reduce my default text
size just because I use a narrower window. That's ludicrous.

Both you and "rf" have a problem understanding what I said. Please read
my reply to "rf".

 

[Bergamot]

Both you and "rf" have a problem understanding what I said.

No, you seem to have a problem understanding that screen size doesn't
matter.

 

[C A Upsdell]

No, you seem to have a problem understanding that screen size doesn't
matter.

I fail to see why you would think that it is not important to test with
a range of sizes ... unless your designs are so perfect that you don't
have to test your work.

 

[Bergamot]

I fail to see why you would think that it is not important to test with
a range of sizes

I said no such thing. Testing with a range of *browser window sizes* is
a good thing. *Screen size* is irrelevant, except in determining the max
window size. You do understand the difference, don't you?

 

[C A Upsdell]

I said no such thing. Testing with a range of *browser window sizes* is
a good thing. *Screen size* is irrelevant, except in determining the max
window size. You do understand the difference, don't you?

If you read *carefully* what I said earlier, you would understand that I
was talking in a (sub)thread discussing testing sites using smaller
browser windows to emulate monitors with lower resolutions.

I would also hope you would understand that people with lower resolution
monitors would typically have different font sizes -- measured in pixels
-- than those with higher resolution monitors: a 16px high character on
a 1280x1024 17" display does not have the same *physical* size as a 16px
high character on a 800x600 15" display; someone who has the latter
monitor would set their font size -- measured in pixels -- lower if they
wanted the same *physical* character size as someone else with the
higher resolution monitor. You have claimed that screen size is not
relevant: but it *is* relevant to someone who is choosing their browser
font size.

With me so far?

Now, if you are using a smaller browser window to emulate a monitor with
a lower resolution, but do not decrease the font size, then the text
within the smaller browser window will be *proportionally* larger than
it would be for someone who really does have a lower resolution monitor:
for example, a line which had (say) 60 characters on the lower
resolution monitor might have only 40 characters within the browser
window used to emulate the lower resolution monitor. Therefore, to make
the smaller browser window a more realistic emulation of a lower
resolution monitor, the font size should be decreased for testing.

*Now* do you understand? If not ... plonk.






..

 

[rf]

I would also hope you would understand that people with lower
resolution monitors would typically have different font sizes --
measured in pixels

Which part of "No, they don't." do you fail to understand?

Set your screen "resolution" to it's highest. Look at a page that does not
specify font size using an out of the box browser. Count the pixels. You
will get, say, 16.

Now change your screen "resolution" to its lowest (say 600x480). Count the
pixels again. You will get 16. You will get 16 regardless of what
"resolution" you have chosen. Every time.

 

[Bergamot]

If you read *carefully* what I said earlier, you would understand that I
was talking in a (sub)thread discussing testing sites using smaller
browser windows to emulate monitors with lower resolutions.

And if you were paying attention, you'd recognize that the person who
posted that (RTS) is an idiot.

a 16px high character on
a 1280x1024 17" display does not have the same *physical* size as a 16px
high character on a 800x600 15" display;

Yeah, so what? A 16px high graphic changes with resolution the same as
16px high text. What do you propose to do about that?

someone who has the latter
monitor would set their font size -- measured in pixels -- lower if they
wanted the same *physical* character size as someone else with the
higher resolution monitor.

Whatever makes you believe they *want* the same size as someone with a
different resolution? You're making baseless assumptions about these
emulated users.

You have claimed that screen size is not
relevant: but it *is* relevant to someone who is choosing their browser
font size.

But it's *not relevant to web design*. Geesh!

With me so far?

You don't see the futility in this, do you? There is no denying you
should test in a range of window and text sizes - including big
text/small window and small text/big window - but it's a waste of time
to try and mimic specific screen resolutions.

*Now* do you understand? If not ... plonk.

Is that supposed to upset me?

 

[rf]

One consideration when checking a site using a small browser window
is that the physical size of the window will likely not match what
a user with a low resolution monitor would have. Text on a lower
resolution monitor will likely be formed from characters which have
fewer pixels. E.g., instead of text being 16 pixels high, text on a
lower resolution monitor might be (say) 12 pixels high.

No, it won't. Not unless the user of that lower resolution monitor
has changed their operating system parameters, and these parameters
are reasonably well hidden. The default font in my browsers is 16
pixels, regardless of what my screen dimensions are. Applications
(including browsers) do not and should not change their font size
depending on the size of the physical screen be that size in pixels,
inches or feet. In fact, it's quite a task to actually get the
physical dimensions of the screen, especially if there is more than
one of them.

If you have a font which is 16px high, with (say) a 1280x1024 17"
monitor, characters will be about 0.16" high. If you set a 800x600
browser window, without changing the font size, in order to emulate
someone who has a 800x600 monitor, characters will still be about
0.16" high. But this does not properly emulate someone who has (say)
a 800x600 15" monitor: if they have the same visual acuity as you do,
they will also want a font which is about 0.16" high on *their*
monitor, which will mean a font which is closer to 11px in height. To
truly emulate someone who has such a 800x600 15" monitor, you
should therefore not only reduce the browser window size to 800x600,
but also reduce the font size from 16px to 11px.

Nope. Not at all. Your logic is faulty. And if it were even reasonable then
the *real* solution would be to simply move your head closer to the monitor,
so the text subtends the same visual angle as your supposed viewer.

By your reasoning, and to cater to one of my viewing scenarios (looking at
web sites using my TV as a monitor) you would have to specify a font size of
some fraction of a pixel (that is font-size: 0.4px) to achieve text 0.16
inches high.

My TV is a data projector that paints a picture on the lounge room wall that
is ten feet wide.