the target audience of this list

[Keith Thompson]

Really? So is it gcc or uname that's lying to me here?
--------
dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (0) $ cat foo.c
/*There's a man page that claims alloca is declared in stdlib.h, so this
is a best-guess about how to get it.
*/

Perhaps the man page is incorrect (or perhaps you're misreading it).
On several systems I've just checked, alloca() is declared in
<alloca.h>. (It *can't* be declared in <stdlib.h> if the compiler is
invoked in conforming mode.)

 

[jacob navia]

Really? So is it gcc or uname that's lying to me here?
--------
dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (0) $ cat foo.c
/*There's a man page that claims alloca is declared in stdlib.h, so this
is a best-guess about how to get it.
*/
#include <stdlib.h>

int main(void)
{
alloca();

return 0;
}
dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (0) $ gcc -W -Wall -ansi -pedantic -O foo.c
foo.c: In function `main':
foo.c:8: warning: implicit declaration of function `alloca'
/tmp/ccn8UpcR.o: In function `main':
/tmp/ccn8UpcR.o(.text+0x4): undefined reference to `alloca'
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (1) $ gcc --version
egcs-2.91.66
dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (0) $ uname -a
Linux hct-cvs 2.2.16 #9 Thu Mar 13 16:55:23 EST 2003 i586 unknown
dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (0) $
--------

gcc claims it doesn't have a declaration for alloca, the linker claims
it can't find it in the library, and uname claims that I'm running Linux
(which you say necessarily supports it).

I'm inclined to think that it's you, and not the programs I'm running,
that's mistaken.


dave

WHAT???
Yours system is misconfigured.

[root@gateway backups]# cat alloca.c
#include <stdlib.h>

int main(void)
{
alloca(89);

return 0;
}

[root@gateway backups]# gcc alloca.c
[root@gateway backups]#

If I take out the "89" gcc will complain:

alloca.c:5: too few arguments to function `__builtin_alloca'

 

[Joona I Palaste]

i asked about the existence of a .h file; i'd say that was a question about C.
jesus... you are all awful touchy on this newsgroup, aren't you?

The question "is there such a header file in C?" is about C. The answer
to the particular question you asked is no. Your implementation might
provide one, though.

 

[jacob navia]

He called gcc with -ansi

This means all built-in functions will not be recognized.

Of course he doesn't find it!

 

[E. Robert Tisdale]

Over the last few days,
I have posted a few questions about some non-standard C headers/functions.
From [reading this newsgroup] in the last few days
I have noticed that this was not the correct place to ask such questions.

I now know [that] this newsgroup is a "C Standard Library" newsgroup,
rather than a "general questions about C" [newsgroup].
It took me a few days to realise this.
I will therefore not bother the [newsgroup] again
unless I have a stdlib question.
To me, it seemed that
a newsgroup titled "comp.lang.c" would be about general C questions,
and an entirely standards lib newsgroup would have the name "comp.lang.c.iso"

That sounds like a great idea
but the comp.lang.c newsgroup was created
*long* before the ANSI/ISO C standard.

The comp.lang.c newsgroup is not moderated.
You can ask any question you like
but you can't force subscribers to answer them.
Subscribers who complain are merely expressing their opinion
which they have every right to do in the comp.lang.c newsgroup.
If you don't agree with them, please just ignore them.
Personally, I believe that subscribers who attempt to *redirect*
questions about "non-standard C headers/functions"
to a more appropriate forum give good advice. But beware!
The comp.lang.c newsgroup has more than its fair share
of indigenous trolls who prey upon unwary new subscribers
and it appears that you have already met some of them.
If you decide to continue
your subscription to the comp.lang.c newsgroup,
you will learn to recognize and ignore them.

However, I was very puzzled for a while as the FAQ

does not mention anything about the kinds of questions
which should be asked on this newsgroup.

Perhaps, it would be a good idea for someone to mention at the top of the FAQ
that the correct topics for this list include only stdlib/iso ones.

I agree.

 

[Kieran Simkin]

i asked about the existence of a .h file; i'd say that was a question about C.
jesus... you are all awful touchy on this newsgroup, aren't you?

Yes.

You're welcome to go elsewhere.

 

[Default User]

you are in credibly patronising and i will not answer your loaded questions. i
hearby declare comp.lang.c as the most unfriendly newsgroup i have ever had the
misfortune to come across.

We get pretty tired of this, "I'm new here but I'm going to lecture you
long-time members about what your topicality SHOULD be."




Brian Rodenborn

 

[Jens.Toerring]

you are in credibly patronising and i will not answer your loaded
questions. i hearby declare comp.lang.c as the most unfriendly newsgroup i
have ever had the misfortune to come across.

What do you want? You got the answer regarding iso-something headers
you were asking for (even twice), and as a bonus even some slightly
off-topic, but of course correct (since it came from Mr. Plauger)
answer where you find the necessary information to cobble together
your own header file. Also your other question regarding returning
some printable forms of characters was answered in a friendly way.
That's as far as I can see your posting history here since the end
of January this year. So where do you get that "most unfriendly
newsgroup" from? Because no-one did your homework for you but were
told that what you're looking for (standard iso-something headers/
specialized print function) does not exist and you have to write
it yourself?

What many people here do not react favorably to is when newbies
start whining about getting told that something is off-topic just
because they, for whatever reasons, try to write a program in
something they assume to be C. All they would have to do is, as
they are supposed to so anyway (ever heard of netiquette?), to
scan a few days worth of postings before posting themselves -
that's a rule that holds for all newsgroups, not just clc. And
that does not take days - every useful newsserver will keep
postings for at least a week. Everybody not completely illiterate
will find out in a matter of minutes what's off-topic and, since
that whole thing gets rehashed every few days, even why. It also
will, at least for most topics, tell them where there is a better
group to ask - for example comp.programming, comp.unix.programmer
or several MS groups get mentioned usually several times a day.
But if you aren't prepared to take that much time why do you assume
that at least several dozends of other people (just a very conser-
vative guess) should take the time to read your question and than
be even bothered to try to answer it?

Regards, Jens

 

[Alan Balmer]

you are in credibly patronising and i will not answer your loaded questions. i
hearby declare comp.lang.c as the most unfriendly newsgroup i have ever had the
misfortune to come across.

Not only that, we'll give you a hard time about your shift key not
working.

 

[Sam Halliday]

What do you want? You got the answer regarding iso-something headers
you were asking for (even twice), and as a bonus even some slightly
off-topic, but of course correct (since it came from Mr. Plauger)
answer where you find the necessary information to cobble together
your own header file. Also your other question regarding returning
some printable forms of characters was answered in a friendly way.
That's as far as I can see your posting history here since the end
of January this year. So where do you get that "most unfriendly
newsgroup" from?

oh i thought the answers were great... i even admit my questions were off topic
(since i could not find a description of relevant questions)

however... being told to "grow up", i find exceptionally unfriendly. do you not?

 

[E. Robert Tisdale]

Not only that,
we'll give you a hard time about your shift key not working.

No.

You should *not* give new subscribers a hard time
because their shift keys are not working.
You should ignore punctuation, spelling and grammar errors.
If they really bother you, fix them quietly
to reflect *your* understanding of what was written.

 

[Sam Halliday]

We get pretty tired of this, "I'm new here but I'm going to lecture you
long-time members about what your topicality SHOULD be."

but thats not what i was saying... i was saying "i now realise what your topic
is... but it is not obvious and it should be in the FAQ."

i never excepted the topic of this newsgroup to change.

 

[Rouben Rostamian]

to me
it seemed that a newsgroup titled "comp.lang.c" would be about general C
questions, and an entirely standards lib newsgroup would have the name
"comp.lang.c.iso"

In the best of all worlds, this newsgroup would have been called
comp.lang.c.iso.

That has been suggested before. Unfortunately there is not much
support for that change.

The result is that about 90 percent of this newsgroup's articles
revolve on issues of topicality which degenerate frequently into a
let's-beat-up-the-newbie orgy. The cynic in me suspects that some
of the regulars derive a good dose of pleasure by engaging in such
practice.

So, that's the way things are. No one said that we live in the best
of all worlds.

 

[Jens.Toerring]

oh i thought the answers were great... i even admit my questions were off topic
(since i could not find a description of relevant questions)

however... being told to "grow up", i find exceptionally unfriendly. do you not?

Well, if that's the worst you get in a newgroup, you should count your
blessings, I have seen much worse. At least it shows someone is quite
optimistic about your prospects - or you already 7'10";-)

Regards, Jens

 

[Old Wolf]

yeah, but the point i am trying to make is that this newsgroup is not
a "general questions about C" group, which it may easily be mistaken for.

Yes it is. You have been asking questions that are not about C.
It would be like posting on alt.usage.english asking "how do I drift
a Honda?", and expecting it to be on-topic because you wrote it in
the English language.

There are plenty of other newsgroups that are dedicated to specific
platforms. And anything that doesn't fit into something specific
can go in comp.programming. I wouldn't mind seeing a group where
'alloca' etc. is ontopic (eg: comp.lang.c.nonstandard), but I'm
not going to get my knickers in a twist if there isn't.

BTW you seem quite aggro: when people say 'that is offtopic' you should
not take it personally (they did not say 'you are stupid', for example).

 

[Keith Thompson]

You should *not* give new subscribers a hard time
because their shift keys are not working.
You should ignore punctuation, spelling and grammar errors.
If they really bother you, fix them quietly
to reflect *your* understanding of what was written.

No. If you're quoting a previous article, quote it exactly. Changing
the formatting so it fits in 72 columns is acceptable; quietly
"fixing" punctuation, spelling, or grammatical errors is not. If it's
so bad that you feel you have to fix it, say so (a simple "typos
corrected" should suffice).

 

[E. Robert Tisdale]

If you're quoting a previous article, quote it exactly.

No. That's as bad as top posting.
Subscribers should consult the original post
or the archives at Google Groups

http://groups.google.com/

if they need to know exactly what was written.

 

[Sam Halliday]

BTW you seem quite aggro: when people say 'that is offtopic' you should
not take it personally (they did not say 'you are stupid', for example).

i never got annoyed at people saying i was off topic... i even freely admit i
was off topic. (i DO however get annoyed when people tell me to grow up.)

why does everyone all of a sudden think i want to change the topic of this
newsgroup? i don't! and i never said i wanted to do that. all i said was "maybe
the FAQ should have a sentence at the top explaining what IS on topic". sheesh!

 

[Jack Klein]

I think the meaning of "comp.lang.c" is quite clear - the standard libraries
are part of the language (because they're distributed with virtually every C
compiler available), MFC (for example) is not (because it is not).

You *almost* had it right with that sentence above.

The name comp.lang.c stands for "computer language C". There is no
rational dispute about the definition of the C computer language, it
is spelled out ISO/IEC 9899, ratified by the national standards bodies
of participating countries.

The standard libraries are part of the language because they are
defined by the C language standard, and they are required to be
available to all conforming hosted implementations.

Not all of the standard library ships with many embedded compilers,
which still may be conforming free-standing implementations.

But the 'standard-ness', and therefore topicality in this group, come
from the fact that they are literally defined by the standard, not by
what compilers they ship with.

 

[Keith Thompson]

No. That's as bad as top posting.
Subscribers should consult the original post
or the archives at Google Groups

http://groups.google.com/

if they need to know exactly what was written.

Perhaps I was unclear.

It's not necessary to quote the entire article to which you're
replying. But whatever portions you do quote should be quoted exactly
(apart from any semantically significant reformatting that might be
necessary to make the quoted text fit in N columns (typically N==72)).

If you feel that you must correct any spelling, punctuation, or
grammatical errors in quoted text, you should make it clear that
you've done so; as I said earlier, a simple "typos corrected" should
be sufficient. But even that is seldom necessary, as long as the
quoted text, errors and all, is reasonably legible.