Where do they tech Python officialy ?

[Star]

MIT's freshman survey, EECS 1 is taught in Python and Scheme, soon to be
just Python.

-Star

 

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Star a écrit :

MIT's freshman survey, EECS 1 is taught in Python and Scheme, soon to be
just Python.

they should keep scheme or replace it with another (statically typed ?)
functional language IMHO.

<OT>
please do the world (or at least usenet and mailing lists users) a
favour : learn to answer properly !-)

1/ don't top-post
2/ only keep from the post you're answering waht you're answering to
3/ if possible, answer to the right post (given the content of your
post, you should have answered to the OP, not to me)

Sorry to be the annoying dude here...

 

[Alex Martelli]

The problem is that I would like to work as a Python programmer but
all the job vacancies I can find requires a couple of years of
professional experience ... that I don't have. How a wanna be
programmer can start working as a programmer if there is no chance to
start from somewhere ? That's the reason I created this topic.

Open source projects do not require previous professional experience to
accept volunteers. So, one way out of your dilemma is to make a name
for yourself as an open source contributor -- help out with Python
itself and/or with any of the many open source projects that use Python,
and you will both learn a lot _and_ acquire "professional experience"
that any enlightened employer will recognize as such. That will take a
while, but not as long as getting a college degree (and it will be far
cheaper than the degree).


Alex

 

[bill.punch]

...


Open source projects do not require previous professional experience to
accept volunteers. So, one way out of your dilemma is to make a name
for yourself as an open source contributor -- help out with Python
itself and/or with any of the many open source projects that use Python,
and you will both learn a lot _and_ acquire "professional experience"
that any enlightened employer will recognize as such. That will take a
while, but not as long as getting a college degree (and it will be far
cheaper than the degree).

Alex

Starting this Fall, Michigan State University's computer science
department is moving to Python for its introductory courses. Student's
following the ugrad curriculum will be exposed to both Python (early)
and C++ (later). We feel this gives our students the best of both
worlds: a high level scripting language that is easier to work with
and provides many modules to do actual work, and an efficient, lower
level language for speed and to interface with OS, graphics, networks
etc.

If you want more information, visit the dept. web pages at http://www.cse.msu.edu.
However, and not suprisingly, things are out of date there and will
probably not be up to date till the semester starts. So if you want
something now, please send email to "bill.punch AT gmail.com"

 

[Aahz]

Open source projects do not require previous professional experience to
accept volunteers. So, one way out of your dilemma is to make a name
for yourself as an open source contributor -- help out with Python
itself and/or with any of the many open source projects that use Python,
and you will both learn a lot _and_ acquire "professional experience"
that any enlightened employer will recognize as such. That will take a
while, but not as long as getting a college degree (and it will be far
cheaper than the degree).

Ayup. My current job didn't even bother asking for references, largely
because my boss knew me from the Python community.

 

[NicolasG]

Open source projects do not require previous professional experience to
accept volunteers. So, one way out of your dilemma is to make a name
for yourself as an open source contributor -- help out with Python
itself and/or with any of the many open source projects that use Python,
and you will both learn a lot _and_ acquire "professional experience"
that any enlightened employer will recognize as such. That will take a
while, but not as long as getting a college degree (and it will be far
cheaper than the degree).

Alex

I think this is the best idea to escape the python amateur circle and
go in to open source project that are considered to be professional
projects. I don't know if it will be better to find a project to
contribute or to start a new one .. Will have a look around and think
about.

 

[Alex Popescu]

(e-mail address removed) (Alex Martelli) wrote in (e-mail address removed):

Open source projects do not require previous professional experience to
accept volunteers. So, one way out of your dilemma is to make a name
for yourself as an open source contributor -- help out with Python
itself and/or with any of the many open source projects that use Python,
and you will both learn a lot _and_ acquire "professional experience"
that any enlightened employer will recognize as such.

It depends . In my experience I met employers being concerned by my
implication in the oss world .

That will take a
while, but not as long as getting a college degree (and it will be far
cheaper than the degree).

I don't know much about the open community in Python world, but in Java
world becoming a project member may be more difficult than getting a
degree (or close to ) ).

bests,
../alex

 

[Magnus Lycka]

> I want to be a professional python programmer...
> unfortunately sometimes to work as a programmer is really hard in this
> world, every employee requires professional experience and you can't
> really start as a beginner..

Python is what I like, I would love to be more creative with this
language and be able to produce things that I can't right now..
Why not try to find a work that you would like ? I don't want to work
as a programmer to became one because I'm already a programmer, I just
want to work as a programmer ..

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "I'm already a programmer"
if you can't get jobs because you're a beginner. That sounds a bit
like "I'm a surgeon, except that I haven't done any surgery just yet."

I also don't understand the concept on choosing a university depending
on whether they use a particular language in their courses. I think it's
a good idea with a good academic education, but whether Python is part
of that is really a minor issue. The most important part of education
for people who are going to work as programmers is advanced mathematics!
That's what will teach you logic and systematic problem solving.

Learning Python is a very small and easy part in learning to develop
software in a professional way. There are no silver bullets. You won't
find a language or a university course that will "fix" things for you.

The world (and your job) is full of problems waiting to be solved.
Solve them with Python, use your spare time if you're ambitious and
don't get the opportunity to use working hours. Use the internet to
find ideas and libraries etc. Doing this will make work more fun, if
you are talented enough it will make you much more productive, you
should be appreciated for the improvements you achieve, and you will
build up a portfolio of software and solutions that you can show a
prospective employer.

If I'm hiring a consultant for a few weeks, prior Python experience
might be an issue, but if I employ someone, I don't care whether they
already know Python. I expect them to know a few languages well.
I assert that they are capable of applying a programming language to
solve problems swiftly and intelligently, and I'm pretty sure they
pick up Python quickly.

 

[Alex Martelli]

I think this is the best idea to escape the python amateur circle and
go in to open source project that are considered to be professional
projects. I don't know if it will be better to find a project to
contribute or to start a new one .. Will have a look around and think
about.

Unless you have some specific new idea that you're keen to address and
can't be met by existing projects, joining an existing project would
normally be a better bet. One-person projects are rarely as important
as larger ones, and it's quite hard to get other collaborators to a new
project; working in a project with existing code and contributors will
also be more instructive. As for which OS projects are "considered to
be professional", just about all large successful ones are so
considered: after all, even games, say, are "professional projects" from
the POV of firms that develop and sell them, such as EA!-)


Alex

 

[Alex Martelli]

It depends . In my experience I met employers being concerned by my
implication in the oss world .

Considering that even the King of Proprietary Software, Microsoft, now
happily hires major Open Source figures such as Jim Hugunin (MS was also
a top-tier sponsor at the recent OSCON, with both managerial and senior
technical employees giving keynotes and tech talks), it boggles the mind
to think about which kind of company would instead be "concerned" by a
candidate's OS experience.

I don't know much about the open community in Python world, but in Java
world becoming a project member may be more difficult than getting a
degree (or close to ) ).

In a major project, you will of course have to supply useful
contributions as well as proving to have a reasonable personality &c
before being granted committer privileges; and a few projects (centered
on a group of committers employed by a single firm or on an otherwise
close-knit small clique) are not very open to the outside world at all.
But (at least wrt projects using Python, C, C++ -- I have no experience
of opensource projects focused on Java instead) that is the exception,
not the rule.


Alex

 

[Ant]

It depends . In my experience I met employers being concerned by my
implication in the oss world .

I have the opposite experience. It was predominantly the fact that I
was involved in several open source projects that got me into
professional development 3 years ago. The employers in the market at
the time required 2 years+ of commercial experience - the fact that I
was involved in OSS helped on two counts, firstly that it showed that
I actually have an interest in development (rather than being another
Comp Sci graduate just after a wage), and secondly that I have
experience in good development practice (the open source projects I
worked on had better infrastructure in place than two of the three
companies I've worked for since!)

 

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Alex Popescu a écrit :

(e-mail address removed) (Alex Martelli) wrote in (e-mail address removed):




It depends . In my experience I met employers being concerned by my
implication in the oss world .

These are the ones you don't wan't to work for anyway !-)

 

[Alex Popescu]

(e-mail address removed) (Alex Martelli) wrote in (e-mail address removed):

Considering that even the King of Proprietary Software, Microsoft, now
happily hires major Open Source figures such as Jim Hugunin (MS was also
a top-tier sponsor at the recent OSCON, with both managerial and senior
technical employees giving keynotes and tech talks), it boggles the mind
to think about which kind of company would instead be "concerned" by a
candidate's OS experience.

Have you seen/heard of Jim lately? Cause I haven't. By the time he was
the lead of the AspectJ team his charismatic presence was everywhere (at
least around that project).
However I do agree with you. The only remark is that US trends are not
hitting my part of Eu so quickly ;-) (things are indeed changing).

These are the ones you don't wan't to work for anyway !-)

Well... this is sometimes debatable .

bests,
../alex

 

[Alex Martelli]

Have you seen/heard of Jim lately? Cause I haven't. By the time he was
the lead of the AspectJ team his charismatic presence was everywhere (at
least around that project).

He wasn't at OSCON this year, but I hope to see him at Pycon next year.
I don't see this as a deep dark M$ plot to kidnap and hide the best and
brightest Open Sourcers, because I know what it means to get a wonderful
challenging new job and pour all you have into it (I've had to skip a
couple Pycons, myself, though I hope to be back next year).

However I do agree with you. The only remark is that US trends are not
hitting my part of Eu so quickly ;-) (things are indeed changing).

About 3 years ago I was also getting sick and tired about my own part of
the EU, which is part of why I emigrated. I do see things getting
better in Southern Europe, albeit from a distance.

Well... this is sometimes debatable .

A totally clueless employer may still be a way to make some quick and
dirty money right now, but it will barely be enough to pay for the extra
Maalox and Zantac you'll need. Looking back on your life when you're
closer to retirement than to when you started working, you'll see what a
mistake it was to accept clueless-employers' offers, and how much
happier your life would have been if you'd known that up front.


Alex

 

[Alex Popescu]

(e-mail address removed) (Alex Martelli) wrote in (e-mail address removed):

He wasn't at OSCON this year, but I hope to see him at Pycon next year.
I don't see this as a deep dark M$ plot to kidnap and hide the best and
brightest Open Sourcers, because I know what it means to get a wonderful
challenging new job and pour all you have into it (I've had to skip a
couple Pycons, myself, though I hope to be back next year).

I wasn't trying to imply that (maybe just as a joke ;-)). It was more a
personal curiosity.

About 3 years ago I was also getting sick and tired about my own part of
the EU, which is part of why I emigrated. I do see things getting
better in Southern Europe, albeit from a distance.

Guess we both know the feeling then.

A totally clueless employer may still be a way to make some quick and
dirty money right now, but it will barely be enough to pay for the extra
Maalox and Zantac you'll need. Looking back on your life when you're
closer to retirement than to when you started working, you'll see what a
mistake it was to accept clueless-employers' offers, and how much
happier your life would have been if you'd known that up front.

He he... been there done that . Escaped only with couple of Maalox,
though .

bests,
../alex