Why not Ruby?

[Paul Rubin]

You don't think Python's dict implementation is functional?

I'm using the term "functional" in the sense of Chris Okasaki's book
"Purely Functional Data Structures". Basically a functional dictionary
is an immutable dictionary that supports fast "update" operations
by letting you quickly make a new dictionary that shares structure
with the old one. For example, if d is a functional dictionary, then

e = d.update(("name", "joe"))

would be something like Python's

e = d.copy()
e["name"] = "joe"

except that it would not incur the overhead of copying d completely
and instead would usually take O(log n) operations where n is the
number of entries in d. Among other things this makes it trivial
to implement rollback for dictionaries, multiple views of the same
data, etc.

Functional dictionaries are normally implemented using balanced tree
structures such as red-black trees as their association mechanism,
rather than hash tables.

 

[Paul Rubin]

Yes.

The structure sharing is essential, but you can do it in Python, just
not using Python dicts as far as I can tell.

Who says that it must create a whole new one? I could imagine that with a
bit weakref code and some thought an immutable dictionary that shares
data would be possible in Python too.

I don't see a way to do that. Suppose d and e are dicts that are supposed
to share structure except d['name']='bob' and e['name']='joe'. How do
weakrefs help?

Functional dictionaries are usually implemented using red-black trees
or AVL trees or similar data structures, rather than hash tables.

 

[r]

"Blasphemy"?

You really are an idiot. Programming languages are not religions. Step
away from the computer, and don't come back until you've grown up.

And stop cross-posting, you rude little delinquent.

Steven,
Spare us your flamery, get on board, and be a part of the solution,
and not just a constant problem to those you don't agree with. Or at
least do like my friend Bruno, and send me up,up,and away to your bozo
filter! Your one of the few trolls left that i have to deal with
around here. And it's sad because sometimes you do offer good
information.

 

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Steven D'Aprano a écrit :

On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 10:35:54 -0800, r wrote:

(snip stupid troll)

You really are an idiot.

Steven, this bozo is just another Xah Lee, so don't waste your time with
him. We all know how to deal with trolls, don't we ?

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

He almost certainly (I assume) means functional in the way that Haskell
is a functional language.

*slaps head*

D'oh!


Er, I mean...

Of course, I knew that, I was checking to see if anyone else did.


*cough*

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

He was not cross posting.

You don't actually know what cross-posting is, do you?

You've just earned a plonking for the next month. Do try to have at least
half a clue by February.

 

[Andreas Waldenburger]

You've just earned a plonking for the next month. Do try to have at
least half a clue by February.

I will state again that there seems to have been a slight change of
tone in clp lately.

How about we Python guys work a bit harder on not calling each other
names and such?

Not that I have a particular problem with *what* Steven said here, but
it could have been phrased a tad more calmly, just for the sake of not
stirring up unnecessary feelings of defiance.

/W

 

[D'Arcy J.M. Cain]

You clearly have a personal issue with Xah Lee. Possibly it is better
you killfile him or your spring will over wind :-;

What good does a killfile do if people insist on repeating his posts in
their entirety?

Please people, try to resist the urge to reply to every post that
raises your blood pressure a point or two but if you must reply, please
trim. Anyone can always go back and review a previous message if they
need more context. Heck, we can even review messages posted by people
in our killfile.

Personally, if I can't see your reply without scrolling down I just
tend to hit the delete key. That means that thanks to you non-trimmers
I get to read Xah posts over and over but never get to see your witty,
entertaining and educational replies.

 

[r]

You don't actually know what cross-posting is, do you?

You've just earned a plonking for the next month. Do try to have at least
half a clue by February.

Steven i got you NOW!
Everybody go and look at this thread, there Mr. Makinzie butts in and
posts an off-topic question, and Steven answers it, contributing to
the off-topicalitly of the thread. And has yet to apologize for it, or
admit his screwup, but will he preach to everyone else about making
off topic post... Pot meet Kettle; Kettle Pot!

http://groups.google.com/group/comp...c3cff5937?hl=en&q=recycle+bin#97254d877903bbd

 

[Ryan McCoskrie]

Q: Do you condemn Ruby?

No. I think it's reasonably elegant, but today there are too many
languages, so Ruby don't particularly standout for me. Many of them,
are arguably quite more elegant and powerful than Ruby.

There is one thing that Ruby is exceptionally good for and that is
replacing COBOL and Visual Basic as the programming languages
for non-programmers. It's dead boring as a language but somebody
who is an accountant or something could make some okayish tools
for personal use in it.


Next point. If your going to post this sort of thing _only_ post to
comp.programming and _never_ post what is on your website. Just
put it into your sig block.

 

[Don Geddis]

No rhyme nor reason? It's quite clear, to me, why. How is a comparison
article not relevant when he is trying to stimulate discussion about
alternative languages for modern development?

Sometimes crossposting can be useful. But you ought to at least be aware
of some of the possible drawbacks, e.g. expressed here:
http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PFAQ/cross-posting.html

In particular, the usual hope by the poster is that the content is relevant
to the union of people in the different groups, but the actual experience is
that it is often relevant only to the intersection of such people.

And, moreover, that a long cross-posted thread on controversial topics often
winds up with people talking at cross-purposes past each other, because they
don't share enough common values to have a useful conversation.

In particular, the poster that started this thread is well known for adding
far more noise than signal to any discussion, and for showing no interest in
the greater good of any of the communities, but only in his own
glorification.

You labor under the delusion that there is at least good intent here, and the
poster ought to receive the benefit of the doubt. Long prior experience shows
that this hope is misplaced.

-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis http://don.geddis.org/ (e-mail address removed)
The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of
a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own
good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant.
-- John Stuart Mill, _On Liberty_

 

[Tim Greer]

Sometimes crossposting can be useful. But you ought to at least be
aware of some of the possible drawbacks, e.g. expressed here:
http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PFAQ/cross-posting.html

In particular, the usual hope by the poster is that the content is
relevant to the union of people in the different groups, but the
actual experience is that it is often relevant only to the
intersection of such people.

And, moreover, that a long cross-posted thread on controversial topics
often winds up with people talking at cross-purposes past each other,
because they don't share enough common values to have a useful
conversation.

In particular, the poster that started this thread is well known for
adding far more noise than signal to any discussion, and for showing
no interest in the greater good of any of the communities, but only in
his own glorification.

You labor under the delusion that there is at least good intent here,
and the
poster ought to receive the benefit of the doubt. Long prior
experience shows that this hope is misplaced.

-- Don

Thank you, Don, for outlining the issue far more eloquently than I was
able to. Also, to be clear, I don't think anyone's upset that people
find his posts interesting, but it doesn't make it so for everyone else
(or assign them any ailment if they don't see it that way) --
especially in regard to the other groups he cross posts to (of which
one should have specifically been the ruby group, but I digress.)

 

[Gerry Reno]

There's been almost 50 responses to this rubbish post. Could you please
all stop!

 

[r]

There's been almost 50 responses to this rubbish post. Could you please
all stop!

Donde es Xah Lee?

 

[Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch]

Steven i got you NOW!
Everybody go and look at this thread, there Mr. Makinzie butts in and
posts an off-topic question, and Steven answers it, contributing to the
off-topicalitly of the thread. And has yet to apologize for it, or admit
his screwup, but will he preach to everyone else about making off topic
post... Pot meet Kettle; Kettle Pot!

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/

fc57c18c3cff5937?hl=en&q=recycle+bin#97254d877903bbd

No you didn't "got" Steven, as unnecessary cross posting is something
different than answering a question that should have been a new thread
start.

Oh, and: *plonk* for your childish annoying behaviour…

Ciao,
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch

 

[Jack.Chu]

Who are you?

In case no one tells you, you are a cocky, egotistical windbag with
opinions that border constructive but never gets there.  Why would
anyone care what you think?  Again, who are you?  Xah Lee?  And?  I
didn't subscribe to read reviews on Ruby.  And I'm pretty sure anyone
that bothers to subscribe to a group about programming has the
wherewithal to research a language themselves and come to their own
determiniation.

Also, this is a Python group and not Ruby.  I knew I should have
avoided this post and read the one about Nike Shoes from China.  At
least those bits of trolling spam don't try to mask themselves as
something worthwhile.

agree with you.

 

[Tim Rowe]

I am beginning to think
the perfect high level language would take the best for Ruby and
Python. The ultimate language with speed in mind, pythons clear
syntax, but with shortcuts for gurus.

I spent quite a few evenings looking at Ruby, and didn't find a single
thing I liked (and I certainly didn't find it "elegant", as the
original poster described it). What do you see in it that you think
would be good in Python? Remember, put in too many shortcuts and
you'll end up with code that's as unmaintainable as Perl!

 

[r]

I spent quite a few evenings looking at Ruby, and didn't find a single
thing I liked (and I certainly didn't find it "elegant", as the
original poster described it). What do you see in it that you think
would be good in Python? Remember, put in too many shortcuts and
you'll end up with code that's as unmaintainable as Perl!

Hello Tim,
I think mainly i was just talking out of my bum. I am forced to learn
Ruby because it is the only API available for one of my favorite
applications. I lament every day that Python was not chosen for the
API, not only for myself, but for the poor users who must deal with
Ruby's backward way of doing things. I really think Python is the best
high level language available today and teaches it's users more than
meets-the-eye. I quite enjoy writing Python code, and learned the
language very quickly despite the fact that i had no prior programming
experience, and very little computer experience in general --
indecently Ruby was the first high level language i tried

There were a few things initially that i -thought- i liked better
about Ruby, but after much consideration, have decided they are not
better, and are actually complete rubbish. If i had a choice i would
much rather invest my time learning Perl than Ruby. I -will- never get
over the use of "end", especially since indentation is allowed. In a
language that is as "supposedly" high level as Ruby, this is moronic-
monkey-drivel. This complete ludicrisness, coupled with archaic
thought processes, is completely redundant, bombastically asinine, and
morbidly irreprehensible. Which in turn evaluates to this plague of
human excrement we must plow through each and every day!

I could could go on and on for hours bashing Ruby, but i should
probably stop here before somebody gets upset although i am sure that
i will be viciously lambasted for what i have already said.(Pssft--
some people around here are quite touchy!) So let the tongue lashings
begin!

 

[Gabriel Genellina]

Steven i got you NOW!
Everybody go and look at this thread, there Mr. Makinzie butts in and
posts an off-topic question, and Steven answers it, contributing to
the off-topicalitly of the thread. And has yet to apologize for it, or

Does the word "annoyness" exist?
You're getting high scores on my ranking.