Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism

[John Bokma]

I love this entire thread. Thank you, Xah!

Me too. I hope he posts again soon

And good luck with the reporting business ;-)

 

[Kaz Kylheku]

Yup, done. If he's still with dreamhost he probably is in trouble now. If
not, next.

Hahaha, right. Your complaints probably go straight do /dev/null. Do
you think any ISP out there cares about someone cross-posting a little
troll on Usenet, cross-posted to a handful of groups? They have bigger
abuse issues to worry about.

Xah Lee is an intelligent guy, just a bit nutty.

He has an interesting and funny website.

He pisses some of you people off because a lot of his ranting is
approximately on the mark. In my home country of Slovakia people say
"Trafena' hus zaga'ga!", which means "It is the goose that is hit which
will honk up".

 

[Kaz Kylheku]

I'm inclined to agree. The problem is not Xah Lee (whom I have killfiled), but

What is the point of killfiling Xah Lee? Xah Lee does not enter into
random debates.

He always starts a new thread, which you can clearly identify by its
subject line and who it is from. Xah Lee does not use sock puppets, nor
does he otherwise conceal himself. He almost goes out of his way to be
clearly identifiable.

If you don't want to read Xah Lee, it is extremely easy to do so
without killfile support.

Intelligent people have learned that Xah Lee threads are extremely well
identified and easy to avoid. So that leaves behind only complete
idiots, and Xah Lee fans.

the people who insist on making my killfile useless by posting loads of
follow-ups saying things amounting to "stop this insane gibberish". Every
bloody time.

This means that you are going into that thread anyway! Maybe if you
un-killfiled Xah Lee, you would see the root article of the thread and
then avoid stepping into it. Maybe you are stepping into these threads
because you want to.

If you truly don't like this stuff, maybe you should killfile by
thread: kill the root article by Xah Lee, and, recursively, anything
else which refers to it directly or transitively by parent references.

But then, even that is superfluous if you have a threaded reader, since
the thread is condensed to a single line on the screen which you have
to explicitly open.

 

[John Bokma]

Hahaha, right. Your complaints probably go straight do /dev/null. Do
you think any ISP out there cares about someone cross-posting a little
troll on Usenet, cross-posted to a handful of groups? They have bigger
abuse issues to worry about.

<quote>
I have warned this user that excessive offtopic cross-posting is not
allowed, and explained that if he doesn't quit he risks losing his
account. If you (or anyone else) notice this in the future, please do not
hesitate to submit another report.

If you have any questions, please let us know.

- Jeff C.
- Abuse Coordinator, DreamHost Web Hosting - http://www.dreamhost.com/

He pisses some of you people off because a lot of his ranting is
approximately on the mark.

You have no clue, so much is clear, and guessing doesn't help.

In my home country of Slovakia people say
"Trafena' hus zaga'ga!", which means "It is the goose that is hit
which will honk up".

Expect some honking from Xah soon then.

 

[John Bokma]

What is the point of killfiling Xah Lee? Xah Lee does not enter into
random debates.

My point.

Xah Lee doesn't follow netiquette, which is nowadays with quite some ISPs
a ToS violation.


[ ... ]

If you truly don't like this stuff, maybe you should killfile by
thread: kill the root article by Xah Lee, and, recursively, anything
else which refers to it directly or transitively by parent references.

I rather account kill by ISP :-D.

Most trolls get the point after they have paid quite some money for
several accounts. Saves me of maintaining kill files.

 

[Tagore Smith]

What is the point of killfiling Xah Lee? Xah Lee does not enter into
random debates.

The point is that Xah's posts seem to make some people angry. _I_
haven't killfiled him, as I generally enjoy his posts. It would be
better, for all concerned, if the people who hate Xah either killfiled
him or followed your advice about not opening his threads.

 

[Tagore Smith]

No, since even if you kill file Xah Lee, he keeps wasting resources of
people who have dedicated equipment to support Usenet.

Your responses are at least as wasteful (as are my responses to you,
and as are most of the posts made to Usenet). Your emails to his ISP
are far more wasteful- you are using up very scarce resources dedicated
to dealing with real abuse. Those resources are in much shorter supply
than the resources dedicated to propagating Usenet posts.

The only thing really wrong with Xah's post is that it was crossposted
to several groups. But your objection seems to be less about the
crossposting, and more about the content. Usenet is not, for the most
part, moderated. If you want to control the content of what you read, I
suggest that you start a blog, where you can ban comments you don't
like, to your heart's content.

I consider this abuse, and since the reports are taken serious atm, it
looks like the ISP / USP / hosting provider *agree* with my POV.

Again, the only thing abusive about Xah's post is that he crossposted
it. That you don't like/understand it does not make it abuse. If you
were only complaining about the crossposting I would be on your side.

It's their call anyway.

Maybe you like to look away when someone throws garbage on the street,
thinking: who cares, it will be cleaned away by the end of the week.

No, if I liked to look away from that I wouldn't bother responding to
you.

don't like the sight of it, and also know that some garbage ends up in the
sewer system, causing all kinds of problems.

Your response is far more damaging than anything Xah has done. Usenet
has, traditionally, been a "not very friendly zone". All kinds of
things get posted. Some of them piss me off. I don't go crying to
people's ISPs when they post messages I disagree with. Again, if you
want to control what gets posted, start a blog.

 

[John Bokma]

Your emails to his ISP
are far more wasteful- you are using up very scarce resources
dedicated to dealing with real abuse.

According to his hosting provider dreamhost:
<quote>
I have warned this user that excessive offtopic cross-posting is not
allowed, and explained that if he doesn't quit he risks losing his
account. If you (or anyone else) notice this in the future, please do not
hesitate to submit another report.
</quote>

Reread it a few times, it might educate you (note the *cross-posting* and
the *submit another report*)

The only thing really wrong with Xah's post is that it was crossposted
to several groups. But your objection seems to be less about the
crossposting, and more about the content.

Your mistaken. I have reported it as excessive crossposting.

(Rest of your misinterpretation snipped).

 

[James Stroud]

I generally enjoy his posts.

You should be happy then that they have all been archived on his website
for quite some time. I'm thinking of cross-posting Soren Keirkegaards
_Either/Or_. Its been archived for a while now and is full of
nonsensical ramblings, but I feel the need to post it for some attention
starved reason. You might enjoy it when I put it up on your favorite
newsgroup (and several other groups to boot).

James

--
James Stroud
UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics
Box 951570
Los Angeles, CA 90095

http://www.jamesstroud.com/

 

[Tagore Smith]

According to his hosting provider dreamhost:
<quote>
I have warned this user that excessive offtopic cross-posting is not
allowed, and explained that if he doesn't quit he risks losing his
account. If you (or anyone else) notice this in the future, please do not
hesitate to submit another report.
</quote>

Precisely: you have wasted the time of someone who might otherwise have
spent that time dealing with real abuse. You got the standard email
sent out to placate people like you. That was my point. Try sending
mail to abuse at (any of my) desmesne(s). You won't get a response- in
fact, no-one will read your mail. We just don't have the resources to
deal with the easily offended. Too bad- we wouldn't mind handling real
abuse, though it is unlikely given our selective set of users.

I'm not sure that Xah's post was offtopic, and I am not sure how to
determine that objectively. I am sure that it was excessively
crossposted. I also know that Xah was posting to Usenet a long time
before you, and that he will still be posting to Usenet long after you
have given up in disgust, no matter who you complain to.

Reread it a few times, it might educate you (note the *cross-posting* and
the *submit another report*)

I think I've mentioned the crossposting in every message I have posted
on this thread, and that I don't approve of crossposting. I'm not sure
that you are in a position to educate me, and that you suggest that you
are is, frankly, obnoxious. I've been civil so far.

(Rest of your misinterpretation snipped).

You can snip the important part, but that won't make the point go away.


I happen to have been working in this industry for a long time. I have
a lot of friends working at, and running, various enterprises. Some of
those enterprises handle a lot of the internet's traffic, measured by
packets at least. If I were really ethically impaired I could easily
mess up internet access for a "list of people I don't like". A call
from a backbone provider is not as ignorable as a random email to
(e-mail address removed).

But I am not ethically impaired (or at least not ethically impaired in
that way). Every young sysadmin learns a simple thing: "you have
disproportionate power, don't abuse it". Sometimes you have to read
people's mail, to diagnose a problem. If they are into weird bondage
stuff you avert your eyes, and you _never_ tell anyone (though I think
you are allowed to look at them funny at the company picnic). If they
are into child porn you call the cops, I think (the ethics are fuzzy
here, but this is my conclusion).

Crossposting is bad, unless it serves a specific purpose- Xah's post
obviously doesn't. I dont like people reporting on Usenet posters to
their ISPs, but... I can't really complain about that. Crossposting is
not good, without a really good justification.

But you are complaining about the content of his posts, and harassing
his ISP based on that. That's not just bad, it is wicked. You can
quote whatever you want from their emails, but I won't change my mind
on this subject- Xah shouldn't crosspost, but otherwise he should be
allowed to post.

Would you like a Usenet campaign started to disrupt your internet
access? You would be angry if that were done, and justifiably.

 

[John Bokma]

Try
sending mail to abuse at (any of my) desmesne(s). You won't get a
response- in fact, no-one will read your mail.

Then you come close to being RFC ignorant IMO. Couldn't be bothered to
check it out.

I'm not sure that Xah's post was offtopic, and I am not sure how to
determine that objectively.

An excessive crosspost is hardly ever on topic.

I am sure that it was excessively
crossposted. I also know that Xah was posting to Usenet a long time
before you,

Could be, oldest post I could find of myself:
<http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.acorn/msg/c1a1f50a7fc6f3a4?
dmode=source>

But is this a pissing contest?

and that he will still be posting to Usenet long after you
have given up in disgust, no matter who you complain to.

I doubt it. I am still "here" after 14 years.

Crossposting is bad, unless it serves a specific purpose- Xah's post
obviously doesn't. I dont like people reporting on Usenet posters to
their ISPs, but... I can't really complain about that. Crossposting is
not good, without a really good justification.

But you are complaining about the content of his posts, and harassing
his ISP based on that.

Again, learn to read: I reported excessive crossposting, period.

Would you like a Usenet campaign started to disrupt your internet
access? You would be angry if that were done, and justifiably.

Last time something like that happened the culprit lost his account. So be
my guest.

 

[Tagore Smith]

Then you come close to being RFC ignorant IMO. Couldn't be bothered to
check it out.

I don't care much about the RFC. I'd like to actually handle abusive
users. But people report abuse for all kinds of strange reasons. It
seems that believing in "Darwinism" is a form of abuse... go figure.
That's actually my point. You are helping to ensure that abuse is
tolerated. We stopped reading the abuse account for a reason.

An excessive crosspost is hardly ever on topic.

Now you are just being dishonest.

Could be, oldest post I could find of myself:
<http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.acorn/msg/c1a1f50a7fc6f3a4?
dmode=source>

But is this a pissing contest?

No- if it were you would no longer have internet access.

 

[John Bokma]

John Bokma wrote:

[ .. ]

Now you are just being dishonest.

In what way?

No- if it were you would no longer have internet access.

Try me.

 

[Dr.Ruud]

Tagore Smith schreef:

[addressing John Bokma]
your objection seems to be less about the
crossposting, and more about the content.

Why do you think that?

 

[Matt Garrish]

Isn't it crazy that one person willfully creates such a mess every
time Xah posts? Shush!

Don't waste your time with the Bokma. He wants everyone to follow the
posting rules that annoy Bokma the least, but he never follows them himself.

Matt

 

[John Bokma]

Don't waste your time with the Bokma. He wants everyone to follow the
posting rules that annoy Bokma the least, but he never follows them
himself.

Wow Matt, did it hurt that bad boy?

Grow up, you're smart enough to see what Xah is doing. If not, ask someone
with more brains to control you better.

 

[John Bokma]

Wow Matt, did it hurt that bad boy?

Grow up, you're smart enough to see what Xah is doing. If not, ask
someone with more brains to control you better.

Also, if you need a post in a Xah Lee thread to make you look right, and
me look bad... that's quite a message in itself Garrish :-D.

 

[Timo Stamm]

<quote>
I have warned this user that excessive offtopic cross-posting is not
allowed,[...]
</quote>

I just wrote to the abuse department at dreamhost, telling them that
your accusations are highly exaggerated.


Timo

 

[John Bokma]

I just wrote to the abuse department at dreamhost, telling them that
your accusations are highly exaggerated.

I included Xah's post, on which they based their reply. Maybe use your
weekend to do some research?

 

[Chris Rathman]

Good thing there's absolutely nothing happening in the world of
functional programming...