7.0 wishlist?

[Harold Yarmouth]

Usenet is not the end-all of the internet.

But it is the end-all of Usenet.

In fact, much of Usenet has descended into death, anarchy,
or just plain obscurity.

No thanks to two influences:
a) spammers and
b) rude gits like you and Arne. Especially Arne. People like Arne drive
people away and into the arms of moderated groups and other kinds of
fora as reliably as do spammers.

Actually, I don't see much spam anymore. This newsserver keeps most of
it out, and yesterday I bit the bullet and killfiled all the Goggle
Gropers. A few flamers, a handful of other people, and all the remaining
spammers bit the dust.

So the major problem with Usenet, these days, if you don't have a shoddy
provider, is that Cleanfeed doesn't yet filter out arseholes like Arne.
(And Thunderbird and other popular news clients don't easily filter
things like "all Goggle Gropers". You need to put a proxy between it and
the 'net to do so. Not easy for normal computer users. Not a problem for
Java programmers though.)

Of course, I could kill-filter Arne easily. It's just that if I did so,
but nobody else did, he'd undoubtedly continue poisoning the well, and
without my even being able to see what he was up to anymore.

What a prick!

People like that getting filtered at the server level by most servers
would be another matter; you wouldn't see what he was saying about you
anymore, but could rest assured that most of the other people who he
might be trying to influence also wouldn't.

The one question is whether being as big a prick as that deserves a
lifetime ban from being heard via Usenet, or just a temporary one. I'd
suggest escalating penalties: one week for the first instance of
flaming, two for the second, four for the third, eight for the
fourth...(by the way, Arne, that would be 7*86400*1000ms).

I despise mailing lists myself

Then your trying to push me to one and off this newsgroup is especially
mystifying. If anyone should be pushed off this newsgroup, it's Arne.
The man's *offensive*.

If you want your ideas to be relegated to obscurity, then go ahead, post
to c.l.j.p. If you want people to debate their inclusion in Java, then
go to those mailing lists.

You don't get to decide such matters. Several other people in this
thread showed willingness to debate these ideas. You obviously have not
been able to compel them to do so only elsewhere, and therefore you have
not been able to impose your desired penalty of obscurity for posting
here upon me.

Simply put, your statements (orders? threats?) above are not true, and
don't appear to be coming true.

You're a paper tiger. Please don't waste your breath with any more of
your growling and hissing.

You have access to the full source code of Java, including the VM,
compiler, and library. It's called OpenJDK.

Sun Java, not a third-party implementation.

First of all, I very much doubt I can just unilaterally make any changes
to OpenJDK (aside from a private, nobody-else-even-knows-it-exists copy)
beyond pure bugfixes, if even those. Even given the needed expertise in
compilers and similar things to do so, AND the needed permission to make
significant changes to OpenJDK (the real deal, not a private fork), that
doesn't alter Sun Java, unless Sun adopts OpenJDK features wholesale
sometime in the future, and then it only alters it then.

But I wouldn't dream of trying to unilaterally impose a change. I just
posted ideas where it is likely that people with more compiler expertise
and/or relevant influence hang out, and especially, people that will
just discuss the matter.

Certainly, it makes sense to put ideas before fellow users first, and
maybe get a critical mass of them to sign on before someone goes to
someone with influence. A single random person petitioning for some
change is likely to get ignored, but a whole bunch of users might be heard.

If you're exasperated about this, why not stop?

If I'm exasperated about your public insinuations, "why not stop" you
how, exactly? (Although what I'd especially like to know is how to stop
Arne!)

You are proposing inclusions

Fascinating, but it has nothing to do with fiction, except in the narrow
sense of the proposals being hypothetical until and unless realized.

Would you like me to

I'd like you to stick to discussing Java and leave personalities,
particularly mine, out of it!

Don't you get it yet?

I didn't come here to be the subject of discussion myself. I came here
to discuss Java, not defend myself against random and unprovoked barbs.

Please respect my wishes in that matter, and the newsgroup's charter.

That's not civilized. That's self-aggrandizing snobbery

No. YOU are a self-aggrandizing snob, as is Lew, as are one or two other
people here.

Self-aggrandizing snobbery oozes out of every pore of every post by any
of you.

I just don't want to be discussed publicly, and I think that is my
right. I don't hold public office, I'm not a celebrity, I have some sort
of right to privacy and to nobody else minding my business.

So even if you do hold the opinion that I'm an idiot, or wrong, or
whatever, you have no right to be blaring it out in public, least of all
in a place where such opinions aren't topical anyway.

 

[Harold Yarmouth]

He has a huge problem with mailing lists.

No, I do not, and I'll thank you not to publicly speculate about me in a
vacuum. Not only is it not topical here, but you are guaranteed to be
wrong 99% of the time guessing without any information on which to base
such a guess.

They don't like anonymous users and trolls get thrown out
very quickly.

Perhaps I should move there after all, then. Neither of us is anonymous
but you're a troll, so I'd be rid of you.

Of course, I have to disentangle myself here first, and without letting
any of your incorrect statements about me be the last word on the subject.

 

[Harold Yarmouth]

((array[i++] << 8) & 0xff) | (array[i++] & 0xff)

That is side effects.

That is bit-twiddling, not matrix multiplication.

It is very much the same vein.
Hardly.

In fact, that is the kind of code I used to fire people for writing in
C, before I decided that I preferred programming to managing
programmers and went back to basics.

Well, its outcome is undefined in C since when i is incremented is
unspecified.

Its outcome being well-defined in Java doesn't matter -- it's ugly,
hard-to-parse code of the sort that gives maintenance programmers the
heebie-jeebies.

 

[Harold Yarmouth]

According to the quoted material, then you started

No. The first insultage came from somebody other than me.

You missed the point.

No, you did.

 

[Harold Yarmouth]

Have to live with it.

No. You have posted enough purely-off-topic posts here lately that your
internet provider will probably be responsive to a complaint about them.

 

[Harold Yarmouth]

Very little of what Harold says are true

Everything that I say is true. Nothing that you say about me seems to
be, at least so far, though.

And I did not say anything nasty about Hendrik, save in jest, and
nothing remotely comparable in ferocity or frequency to your output of
nastiness.

 

[Harold Yarmouth]

It has been proven that this search would not be fruitless, so
your prediction was rong.

As usual, the only thing "rong" here is your spelling*, "Arne".

Remember, I actually did the suggested Google search and these "Jakarta
Commons" did not appear (unless way down on page umpteen of the results,
perhaps).

Your claim otherwise falls flat on its face when confronted by the
actual physical evidence.

* And your morals. Your behavior is morally wrong, "Arne".

 

[Mike Schilling]

Let's see, that makes straw man and ad hominem.

"Ad hominem"? What language is that?

 

[Joshua Cranmer]

Sun Java, not a third-party implementation.

First of all, I very much doubt I can just unilaterally make any changes
to OpenJDK (aside from a private, nobody-else-even-knows-it-exists copy)
beyond pure bugfixes, if even those.

It's open source. You can provide patches to maintainers; if you do
enough work, you can get direct access yourself.

Even given the needed expertise in
compilers and similar things to do so, AND the needed permission to make
significant changes to OpenJDK (the real deal, not a private fork), that
doesn't alter Sun Java, unless Sun adopts OpenJDK features wholesale
sometime in the future, and then it only alters it then.

It is Sun Java. Please read up on what you are critiquing before doing so.

Certainly, it makes sense to put ideas before fellow users first, and
maybe get a critical mass of them to sign on before someone goes to
someone with influence. A single random person petitioning for some
change is likely to get ignored, but a whole bunch of users might be heard.

And that's why I kept pointing you towards the Kitchen Sink stuff. The
idea is that you actually implement the feature so you can get /real/
feedback from how it works.

If I'm exasperated about your public insinuations, "why not stop" you
how, exactly? (Although what I'd especially like to know is how to stop
Arne!)

Just stop? One-sided conversations don't last very long.

I didn't come here to be the subject of discussion myself. I came here
to discuss Java, not defend myself against random and unprovoked barbs.

If you don't want to be the subject of discussion, don't make yourself
the subject of discussion. Just silently trim parts and people will
stop. By saying [insult deleted] and stuff, you only draw attention to
those parts. You can end a lot of discussions by failing to respond.

I just don't want to be discussed publicly, and I think that is my
right. I don't hold public office, I'm not a celebrity, I have some sort
of right to privacy and to nobody else minding my business.

People formulate and share opinions about other people. They may be
based on wrong information, etc., but you can't stop the formulation of
opinions or the sharing of opinions. The best one can do is to try to
present oneself in a manner to influence others' opinions.

 

[Joshua Cranmer]

Joshua Cranmer wrote:
((array[i++] << 8) & 0xff) | (array[i++] & 0xff)

That is side effects.

That is bit-twiddling, not matrix multiplication.

It is very much the same vein.

Hardly.

Boolean or is a binary operation that is commutative in mathematical
terms. So is addition. The point is that any operation in computer
science is not commutative.

The idea that pure mathematics does not match computational reality is
not limited to this point of commutativity. Note, for example, that
making a Square class extend a Rectangle (since a Square is-a Rectangle)
does not actually work since it would fail to match the Rectangle's
contract.

 

[Andreas Leitgeb]

Note, for example, that
making a Square class extend a Rectangle (since a Square is-a Rectangle)
does not actually work since it would fail to match the Rectangle's
contract.

I may not understand your example in all its possible deepness, but
what type of rectangle-related contract do you have in mind, that is
not met by a square? I hope it is not something like "width!=height
must be allowed": such types of contracts would thwart almost every
"is-a" relation.

 

[Joshua Cranmer]

I may not understand your example in all its possible deepness, but
what type of rectangle-related contract do you have in mind, that is
not met by a square? I hope it is not something like "width!=height
must be allowed": such types of contracts would thwart almost every
"is-a" relation.

This is the example I've seen:

void assertContract(Rectangle r) {
int width = r.getWidth();
r.setHeight(5);
assert width == r.getWidth();
}

The idea that changing the height does not change the width is what is
violated. A more general way of putting it is that it violates the
contract that properties (most of them, in any case) are distinct and
individually modifiable without affecting others.

 

[Owen Jacobson]

I may not understand your example in all its possible deepness, but
what type of rectangle-related contract do you have in mind, that is
not met by a square?  I hope it is not something like "width!=height
must be allowed": such types of contracts would thwart almost every
"is-a" relation.

Square is-a rectangle doesn't work for mutable types: if you modify
the width of a rectangle, the contract is not such that the height may
change as well. Square is-a rectangle works fine for immutable types
and for case classes; in the former case, Square only expands the API
and replaces the constructor, and in the latter, modifying the
dimensions makes the object not-a Square any more (but still a
Rectangle).

Shapes and Animals are still stupid examples, mind.

-o

 

[Lars Enderin]

Perhaps I should move there after all, then. Neither of us is anonymous
but you're a troll, so I'd be rid of you.

Of course, I have to disentangle myself here first, and without letting
any of your incorrect statements about me be the last word on the subject.

Your obsession with insisting on the last word, and your delusions about
always being right, and anyone disagreeing with you automatically being
wrong, are factors that together with other characteristics, like
posting style, strongly indicate that you are in fact the same person as
Twisted.
In the unlikely event that you are not Twisted, you would do well to
avoid emulating him. His compulsive behaviour has caused him a lot of
grief, unless he actually enjoys the endless fights he always gets
himself embroiled in.

 

[Joshua Cranmer]

Shapes and Animals are still stupid examples, mind.

Another example that is more debatable: Should a Vector (mathematically
speaking) class inherit from a Matrix class?

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

Your obsession with insisting on the last word, and your delusions about
always being right, and anyone disagreeing with you automatically being
wrong, are factors that together with other characteristics, like
posting style, strongly indicate that you are in fact the same person as
Twisted.

I would say 99.99% probability.

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

It IS Sun Java. <http://www.sun.com/software/opensource/java/faq.jsp#b>.

You forget that Paul don't like to study thing only to claim that
he knows about things.

It's open source. You can provide patches to maintainers; if you do
enough work, you can get direct access yourself.

You wrote that it was open source in the >>> quoted text. But either
he does not read what he replies to or he does not know what open source
means.

Just stop? One-sided conversations don't last very long.

I think Lars explained it very well with the term
"compulsive behavior" !

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

"Ad hominem"? What language is that?

The language Harold does not like - wait - hmm ...

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

As usual, the only thing "rong" here is your spelling*, "Arne".

Read up on spelling errors versus typing errors when you have
some spare time.

Remember, I actually did the suggested Google search and these "Jakarta
Commons" did not appear (unless way down on page umpteen of the results,
perhaps).

Your claim otherwise falls flat on its face when confronted by the
actual physical evidence.

You have not noted that other people in this thread were able
to find it ?

They have. So it is proven that it can be found.

Maybe it is above you web search abilities, but normal Java
programmers can find it.

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

No. You have posted enough purely-off-topic posts here lately that your
internet provider will probably be responsive to a complaint about them.

Do you need help on how to Google the email address ?

Arne