datetime issue

[rurpy]

Based on past experience, the chances of useful information being
posted via Google Groups is very small. The benefit of avoiding all
the spam and garbage the comes from that source is more than worth the
small risk of missing something worthwhile.

Note that I'm _not_ talking about people posting to the mailing list
using Gmail -- only people posting via the Google Groups web UI.

Your experience is that most GG posts are junk but not
most Gmail posts. And yet someone else posted that Gmail
posts are the junk ones. So I wonder how accurate these
evaluations are.

In either case, while there has been some spam and garbage
posts in c.l.p in the past, I haven't seen very many lately.
And even in the past, they seemed pretty recognizable to me
and easily skipped over.

As for stupid questions, undesired formatting etc, I seldom
look at the message headers so I never noticed whether they
are mostly from GG or Gmail. But then again I never found
it hard to glance at a post and move on if I didn't want to
read it. YMMV.

 

[Chris Angelico]

Are you saying that this group is only for "serious" programmers?

It's not; also, so long as Python maintains an official Windows build,
this list/group will be fielding questions about Windows. But there's
still good reason to grab a Linux.

http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#idp29970256

"serious" is also a matter of opinion. I have some serious
programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that
serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie
languages like Python, but should be developing their skills
with serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc.

And there are probably still a few around who maintain that Java, C#,
and even C are too modern, and that serious programmers use FORTRAN or
COBOL. Or assembly language. Let 'em. Meanwhile I'll have demonstrable
code done while they're still fiddling around with details, because my
languages (including, though by no means limited to, Python) do most
of the work for me.

ChrisA

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

And there are probably still a few around who maintain that Java, C#,
and even C are too modern, and that serious programmers use FORTRAN or
COBOL.

Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and
especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern,
advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell.




[1] "Ancient" is a frame of mind, not a chronological state.

 

[Roy Smith]

Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and
especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern,
advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell.

Does anybody actually use D for anything?

I looked at the language a while ago. There seemed to be a lot in it
that made sense. Does it get any real use, or is it just an interesting
research project?

 

[Jamie Paul Griffin]

/ (e-mail address removed) wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 /

Are you saying that this group is only for "serious" programmers?

I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for serious programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in whatever form, is better placed and designed for all sorts of computing and engineering projects. The history of UNIX speaks for itself. Many Universities that offer respected and credible science based degree programmes, namely engineering and computing programmes, strongly encourage students to become competent with UNIX systems. Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet on a casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff are not necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they can use which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques and protocols. But, having said that, I'm not against Windows at all. I use it frequently and enjoy using it most of the time.

"serious" is also a matter of opinion. I have some serious
programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that
serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie
languages like Python, but should be developing their skills
with serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc.

That is a narrow minded approach. different languages serve different purposes and it's down to the developer to use which language she needs to achieve what it is they've set out to do. Sometimes, basic shell scripts can be extremely powerful for certain tasks; other needs will require something different. I certainly wouldn't describe Python as a "script-kiddie" language. It's extremely powerful and modern. So there ;-P lol

 

[Jamie Paul Griffin]

/ (e-mail address removed) wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:00:48 -0700 /

====
* In Search dialog clicked on the Search in folder dropdown after
an earlier search and TB crashed (disappeared along with the
new message I was editing.) [3.0.1]

* Search for japanese text in body no longer works (never finds
text even when it exists). [3.0.1] Used to work.

* Each mail message displays useless header info that uses 25%
of the available vertical space.

* When editing a reply message, typing a return at eol results in
two blank lines inserted.

* When editing message, siometimes edit cursor disappears
tho editing still seems to work normally.

* Requires voodoo to create hmtl new message when default is
plain text or visa versa. Have to hold shift key while clicking
"write" button. Shift while choosing "new", "reply", etc in
menu doesn't work.

* Frequently, clinking on a usenet newsgroup results in TB freeze.
Only solution is to remove group and re-add later. (Problem
since 2.x days.)

* Frequently after an apparently normal shutdown, attempt to restart
results in "TB is already running" error.

* Some folders in the folder tree view are greyed out and not
selectable even though they have no visible different properties
than selectable ones. Don't know how they got that way.

* Clicking on a folder in the folder tree pane results in a pop-
up dialog "this folder is not selectable" that has to be dismissed,
even though one is trying to get it's properties, or is selecting
it to create a subfolder.

* Messages change from "read" to "unread" in folders at random when
folder is accessed, or even when it is not accessed. [gone in 3.0.3?]

* Interminttently, when I click a usenet message to view it,
the contents pane remains blank. Contents of that message
remain blank foreever. [new with 3.0.1].

* When TB main window closed while editing an email, can no longer
save the email, even if the TB main window is reopened.

* Counts of new messages in usenet groups are often wildly high.

* When opening up a usenet server, status bar reports "no new
messages on server" even though TB then updates the groups
with the new messages that *are* on the server. [new in 3.0.1]

* After upgrade to TB-3.0, opening a usenet server results not
only in the group being scanned for new messages in each group
(as before) but also the headers for all those new messages
being downloaded (slow on a dialup connection and a waste of
time if I don't intend to read anything in that group).
No obvious way to revert to original behaviour.

* Even tho the number of unread messages listed beside a usenet
group in the folder pane is less than the download limit, I
sometimes get pop-up asking how many messages to download,
when I access the group. (side effect of above problem I think.)

* Sometimes TB downloads two copies of each header.

* When I compress folders, get a series of several dozen pop-
up messages (each requiring a click on "OK") telling me
that foplder "xx" is not selectable.

* Copy-paste from TB to other app fails if TB is closed
before the paste -- the paste buffer appears empty [TB-3.0b4]

* Copy paste fails by removing text (forgot if it is just the
copied text or other text) in the TB message when pasted
somewhere else. [TB-2?]

* After upgrade to TB-3.0x, i no longer see a way to create a
new imap subfolder. Had to create it using MSOE.

* After upgrade to TB-3.0x double clicking on attached .jpg image
no longer opens it -- only option is to save and open outside
of TB. phfft.

* HTF do you change the font size for plain text message composition?
Prefs has a setting for html but...

* search of body for multiple "anded" text never ends if one of
the search boxes is empty.

* Search "stop" button doesn't stop search.

* One group frequently, without any action on my part, read thousands
of old articles, showing them as unread, and when I choose one, responds
with "article expired" message. (tb-3.0.4)

[ ... ]

With a list of problems like that maybe the time spent on learning how to use a Usenet client or mua that is properly written would be worthwhile. Personally I haven't used the Google Groups interface, and most likely never will so I can't really comment on how it performs or how nice it is to use but if you're happy with it that's the main thing. But you can't deny that it does cause irritating problems for other people trying to read information sent from it.

 

[Grant Edwards]

And there are probably still a few around who maintain that Java, C#,
and even C are too modern, and that serious programmers use FORTRAN or
COBOL.

Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and
especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern,
advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell.

Don't forget Smalltalk! Old, but always modern and advanced...

 

[Ian Kelly]

/ (e-mail address removed) wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 /



I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for serious programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in whatever form, is better placed and designed for all sorts of computing and engineering projects. The history of UNIX speaks for itself. Many Universities that offerrespected and credible science based degree programmes, namely engineeringand computing programmes, strongly encourage students to become competent with UNIX systems. Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet on a casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff arenot necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they can use which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques and protocols. But, having said that, I'm not against Windows at all. I use it frequently and enjoy using it most of the time.

I am comfortable with both Windows and Unix systems, and I do not find
that either environment is particularly more effective for software
engineering or helps me to be more productive than the other. My job
has me developing Windows software, so I use Windows at work since at
the very least I require it for testing and debugging. I could use
virtualization to run Unix as well, and I have known some who do, but
my philosophy is: why waste time dealing with two distinct
environments where only one is required?

Cheers,
Ian

 

[rurpy]

/ (e-mail address removed) wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 /



I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for
serious programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in
whatever form, is better placed and designed for all sorts of
computing and engineering projects. The history of UNIX speaks for
itself. Many Universities that offer respected and credible science
based degree programmes, namely engineering and computing programmes,
strongly encourage students to become competent with UNIX systems.
Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet on a
casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff are not
necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they
can use which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques
and protocols. But, having said that, I'm not against Windo ws at
all. I use it frequently and enjoy using it most of the time.

Wow, that makes me feel like I am back in the 1990s!
Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

That is a narrow minded approach. different languages serve different
purposes and it's down to the developer to use which language she
needs to achieve what it is they've set out to do. Sometimes, basic
shell scripts can be extremely powerful for certain tasks; other
needs will require something different. I certainly wouldn't describe
Python as a "script-kiddie" language. It's extremely powerful and
modern. So there ;-P lol

Right. I happen to agree with you and was just repeating
an elitist attitude I've often heard where what *I* use
is for *serious* business and what *they* use is just
for playing around, for those without as much technical
competence as me, etc.

Without a quantitative definition of "serious" and some
objective evidence supporting it, your opinion that unix
is more "serious" than windows is as narrow-minded as my
friends' opinion (which was the point I was trying to
make and which you seem to have missed.)

I don't particularly like Windows and am able to mostly
avoid it these days, but think you should realize that
describing it as not for *serious* use is going irritate
some people and make you look like you are not able to
make objective judgements.

(I also hope I haven't just been suckered by a troll
attempt, windows/unix is better then unix/windows being
an age-old means of trolling.)

 

[rurpy]

/ (e-mail address removed) wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:00:48 -0700 /

[...list of Thunderbird problems...]

With a list of problems like that maybe the time spent on learning
how to use a Usenet client or mua that is properly written would be
worthwhile.

And that would be which one exactly? I have tried a few
other mail and usenet clients, and as I said, indeed the
point of my post was, they *all* have their own set of
bugs, misfeatures and missing features.

Personally I haven't used the Google Groups interface,
and most likely never will so I can't really comment on how it
performs or how nice it is to use but if you're happy with it that's
the main thing. But you can't deny that it does cause irritating
problems for other people trying to read information sent from it.

I can and do deny that. I certainly acknowledge that
GG contributes to such posts, but naive users of GG and
readers who are too easily irritated are two other major
contributing factors.

 

[Mark Lawrence]

Wow, that makes me feel like I am back in the 1990s!
Thanks for the trip down memory lane.


Right. I happen to agree with you and was just repeating
an elitist attitude I've often heard where what *I* use
is for *serious* business and what *they* use is just
for playing around, for those without as much technical
competence as me, etc.

Without a quantitative definition of "serious" and some
objective evidence supporting it, your opinion that unix
is more "serious" than windows is as narrow-minded as my
friends' opinion (which was the point I was trying to
make and which you seem to have missed.)

I don't particularly like Windows and am able to mostly
avoid it these days, but think you should realize that
describing it as not for *serious* use is going irritate
some people and make you look like you are not able to
make objective judgements.

(I also hope I haven't just been suckered by a troll
attempt, windows/unix is better then unix/windows being
an age-old means of trolling.)

Does Unix now have clustering, or is it still behind VMS aka Very Much
Safer?

 

[Bob Martin]

/ (e-mail address removed) wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 /



I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for serious programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in whatever form, is better placed and designed for all sorts of computing and engineering projects. The history of UNIX speaks for itself. Many Universities that offer respected and credible science based degree programmes, namely engineering and computing programmes, strongly encourage students to become competent with UNIX systems. Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet on a casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff are not necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they can use which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques and protocols. But, having said that, I'm not against Windows at all. I use it frequently and enjoy using it most of the time.


That is a narrow minded approach. different languages serve different purposes and it's down to the developer to use which language she needs to achieve what it is they've set out to do. Sometimes, basic shell scripts can be extremely powerful for certain tasks; other needs will require something different. I certainly wouldn't describe Python as a "script-kiddie" language. It's extremely powerful and modern. So there ;-P lol

Real programmers (can) write in assembler.

 

[Dave Angel]

Real programmers (can) write in assembler.

Real programmers can (and have) write in hex/octal or binary. For my
first project at a permanent job, I had to write code for a machine with
no assembler. Near the end of the project, I wrote a text editor and
(cross) assembler for it, because maintaining the source with pen/ink
was getting tedious.

For the DOS world, real programmers have written a "complete" *.com
program using only echo.

 

[Chris Angelico]

For the DOS world, real programmers have written a "complete" *.com
program using only echo.

Only as an exercise. It was satisfying to prove to myself that I could
do it, but pretty useless. Normally I used DEBUG.EXE to build my code
- it has a mini-assembler in it. Incidentally, I used debug as a full
assembler, with a bit of a REXX harness around it - used that to write
OS/2 code in pure assembly, without the bother of, yaknow, getting an
actual assembler. Suddenly things got WAY easier once I got hold of
nasm...

ChrisA

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

For the DOS world, real programmers have written a "complete" *.com
program using only echo.

Echo? Wimps. Real programmers write their code directly on the surface of
the hard drive using only a magnetised needle.

 

[Jamie Paul Griffin]

/ (e-mail address removed) wrote on Fri 2.Nov'12 at 11:39:10 -0700 /

(I also hope I haven't just been suckered by a troll
attempt, windows/unix is better then unix/windows being
an age-old means of trolling.)

No, i'm not a "troll". I was just adding my opinion to the thread, I assumed that was allowed. I didn't say UNIX is better than Windows, did I; I just feel that Windows is not -- for me anyway -- the most suitable plaform for learning about the science of computing and coding, etc... being a computer science student that's the view i have and share with those I learn with and from. Why must people be accused of trolling everytime they make a statement that conveys a preference over one platform or language, for example, than the other. Provoking someone by labeling them a troll or implying they might be is a bit childish really.

 

[Virgil Stokes]

/ (e-mail address removed) wrote on Fri 2.Nov'12 at 11:39:10 -0700 /

No, i'm not a "troll". I was just adding my opinion to the thread, I assumed that was allowed. I didn't say UNIX is better than Windows, did I; I just feel that Windows is not -- for me anyway -- the most suitable plaform for learning about the science of computing and coding, etc... being a computer science student that's the view i have and share with those I learn with and from. Why must people be accused of trolling everytime they make a statement that conveys a preference over one platform or language, for example, than the other. Provoking someone by labeling them a troll or implying they might be is a bit childish really.

Well stated Jamie --- I agree. I don't believe that all members of this list
label you as a troll.

--V

 

[Mark Lawrence]

/ Robert Miles wrote on Wed 31.Oct'12 at 0:39:02 -0500 /


Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now.

Anybody serious about programming should know that an OS is a
combination of the hardware and software. Can the *Nix variants now do
proper clustering or are they still decades behind VMS? Never used the
other main/mini frame systems myself but perhaps they are still vastly
superior to this highly overrated *Nix crap.

 

[rusi]

/ (e-mail address removed) wrote on Fri  2.Nov'12 at 11:39:10 -0700 /


No, i'm not a "troll". I was just adding my opinion to the thread, I assumed that was allowed. I didn't say UNIX is better than Windows, did I; I just feel that Windows is not -- for me anyway -- the most suitable plaform for learning about the science of computing and coding, etc... being a computer science student that's the view i have and share with those I learn with and from. Why must people be accused of trolling everytime they make a statement that conveys a preference over one platform or language, for example, than the other. Provoking someone by labeling them a troll or implying they might be is a bit childish really.

Hi Jamie

Among people who know me, I am a linux nerd: My sister scolded me
yesterday because I put files on her computer without spaces:
DoesAnyoneWriteLikeThis?!?!

Your post reminds me: As someone who has taught CS for 25 years, Ive
not only been party to his Unix-fanboy viewpoint but have even
actively fostered it. Over time Ive come to have some pangs of
conscience about this. Evidently this kind of attitude has helped no
one: not my students, not the corporations they join, not the society
at large.

So now, on my blog I maintain a record of the foibles of CS academics.
http://blog.languager.org/2011/02/cs-education-is-fat-and-weak-1.html
is a history of CS as it is normally given.

http://blog.languager.org/2011/02/cs-education-is-fat-and-weak-2.html
is the above deconstructed with stupidities of academic CS factored
in.

 

[Chris Angelico]

Among people who know me, I am a linux nerd: My sister scolded me
yesterday because I put files on her computer without spaces:
DoesAnyoneWriteLikeThis?!?!

My filenames seldom have spaces in them, but that has nothing to do
with how I write English. Names are names. They're not essays, they
are not written as full sentences. When a name contains spaces, it
must be delimited (or the space must be escaped, if your environment
permits) any time it occurs inside some other context - most commonly,
as a command-line argument.

Back when I was using MS-DOS 5, it was possible to have file names
with spaces. It wasn't easy to manipulate them from the command line,
but you could reference them using globs (eg replace the space(s) with
? and hope that there are no false hits). OS/2, when working on a FAT
filesystem, would create files called "EA DATA. SF" or "WP ROOT. SF"
or "WP SHARE. SF" (two spaces in each), and most DOS/Windows programs
wouldn't (couldn't) touch them - they were safe repositories for
system metadata (on smarter filesystems, that sort of thing would be
stored as file attributes, not as separate files).

It's nothing to do with operating system. File names are names, and
spaces in them are seldom worth the hassle unless you manipulate those
files solely using a GUI.

ChrisA